Cameron launches "Big Society"

[stethoscope]

I just want less fuckin government and more people to actually DO shit for people around them.

Which, as killer aludes to, is approaching a left libertarian anarchist position

But the critical thing here is that the Tories won't deliver that - they've always been utterly destructive to communities and no amount of Cameron 'nu-Toryism' will change that.

Co-operatives, unionism and worker rights, working class empowerment, welfare, education for all, etc all come from the left.

 

[stethoscope]

Free market sounds fine to me. Let people do what they fucking want instead of trying to control it all the time.

The free market doesn't achieve that - all it means is that a very small group of people in society control things and keep all the wealth, and the rest of us (working class communities) who actually do the work don't get a look-in. That's precisely what the Tories and the right have always pursued and believed in, and sadly, 'Nu-Lab' followed that too in the 90s.

 

[mentalchik]

Free market sounds fine to me. Let people do what they fucking want instead of trying to control it all the time.

again are you fucking serious ?

 

[Edie]

Jesus fucking wept are you so surrounded by people who think exactly the same as you that it don't occur to you that other people may not?

again are you fucking serious ?

 

[Proper Tidy]

The problem here, Edie, is that you don't have a fucking clue what you are talking about.

 

[mentalchik]

Jesus fucking wept are you so surrounded by people who think exactly the same as you that it don't occur to you that other people may not?

As it happens no i'm not and i'm quite capable of making my own opinions and am quite well aware that people hold different views you condescending cow.......you are after all arguing yours aren't you and i'm 'differing' in mine.......

 

[madzone]

Oh. It all makes sense now. I just assumed edie was on the blob.

 

[Edie]

Yeah well I don't like all this 'I'm working class' 'I'm not" bollocks. Only the left even give a shit. Not a single person I know through work or in my area gives a flying fuck whether they are working class or not, and even the left have no agreed way of working it out (see like a million different threads on the subject).

See I'm not an anarchist cos I really do not see how people living with no elected rulers would ever fucking work out. Nah, have a very limited government who work to our rules. They basically distribute money so that we can do the rest. And people who set up businesses and show some initiative? Good luck to them. And to those who don't want to work? Good luck to them to.

The free market doesn't achieve that - all it means is that a very small group of people in society control things and keep all the wealth, and the rest of us (working class communities) who actually do the work don't get a look-in. That's precisely what the Tories and the right have always pursued and believed in, and sadly, 'Nu-Lab' followed that too in the 90s.

 

[Edie]

.

 

[Edie]

That is fucking true tbf.

The problem here, Edie, is that you don't have a fucking clue what you are talking about.

 

[madzone]

.

 

[stethoscope]

Yeah well I don't like all this 'I'm working class' 'I'm not" bollocks. Only the left even give a shit. Not a single person I know through work or in my area gives a flying fuck whether they are working class or not, and even the left have no agreed way of working it out (see like a million different threads on the subject).

I'm only giving you a historical perspective as I see it. The right has never done shit for communities and I don't expect it to start now.

 

[Edie]

.

 

[dennisr]

Free market sounds fine to me. Let people do what they fucking want instead of trying to control it all the time.

Its what has just caused the financial crisis (degegulated banks gambling with other peoples money) Here's the rub though - we are meant to pay for it all - that means less services, less school funding, less for hospitals. The present gov cover up these cuts to our living conditions in the language of self-reliance.

My family have been 'self-reliant' all their lives (my old man hit the roof for the 'crime' of signing on for a short time - when I first left school years ago). But the rug's been pulled from underneaeth them. The building trade has collapsed outside of london (same happened in the early 90s when they lost the previous house they built themselves...). Not because no one needs housing - because its not profitable.

The 'free' market isn't 'free' - any more than the 'big society' is a geneuine attempt to help people control their own lives. Its about massive cuts in services.

the 'free' market is only free for the big fish at the top of the pile - the likes of bankers and other public school thieves.

 

[tastebud]

I just want less fuckin government and more people to actually DO shit for people around them.

this kind of attitude is common and depressing re: the whole thing. this is exactly how the tories want you to perceive things.... hence the whole big society - let's try to get the liberal votes/create the illusion of power for the people (when in fact the opposite is what they want to achieve - but by presenting things in the way they have they have created this wanky propoganda shit that people will buy - and thus be further controlled - because it is presented in the exact opposite way to what their aim is) and of course mask the fact that we are going to make enormous cuts that will massively effect people's lives.

don't buy any of this power for the local people bullshit..... the opposite will indeed end up being the case. they are tories - their aim is to control people and communities, not facilitate them taking control.

(not aimed at any particular post just me having my rant about this for about the umpteenth time today )

 

[Refused as fuck]

Jesus fucking christ, is this trainwreck still going?


Very simply; "Big Society" = cuts to public services, cuts to welfare, attacks on the poor, attacks on single parents, attacks on the disabled, making people work the jobs they've just been sacked from for free, in order for money to be directed instead to poorly thought out schemes run by millionaires to line each others pockets more than anything else. Anyone who thinks it has anything to do with "true democracy" or empowering communities to work together is either incredibly thick or desperately attempting to justify being a horrible human being.

Or an a giant troll. In which case, carry on.

 

[dennisr]

troll

there is that

 

[stethoscope]

Very simply; "Big Society" = cuts to public services, cuts to welfare, attacks on the poor, attacks on single parents, attacks on the disabled in order for money to be directed instead to poorly thought out schemes run by millionaires to line each others pockets more than anything else.

This basically.


I don't think I can be arsed with anymore!

 

[shagnasty]

The tories know who are the w/c because they certainly know who to attack

 

[Jon-of-arc]

You pathetic crackhead moron

Nah, man, fuck that. Coz edie reads camerons rhetoric (which should really be music to the ears of anyone politically active in their local community, especially those on the left) and seems to have some faith that his policy will be implemented as described (I personally believe it'll be somewhere between the super-volunteer society cameron describes, and the cynical, doomed-to-failure attempt to dupe us all into allowing the gov to pinch pennies from the cherised services which we so often take for granted) she suffers an ad-hom attack? Thats pretty harsh, really. But the amount of borderline alcoholic radical activists who look down on drug users is as hypocritical as it is hilarious...

Just my own two-pence worth, though. Some local activists and I started a community garden on squatted land in 2006. We basically did what cameron describes, we just didnt wait for permission. But we ended up engaged with the council, community groups and greedy property developers with their eye on a prime bit of land for the next bunch of rabit hutch flats to go up. What we learned was that we could do a lot of things our own way (have unlicensed music events, advertise unlicensed parties in the town center), but when our way eventually got in the way of their way, we got shut down.

And thats the real lie behind camerons Big Society; "Go, my fellow countrymen, be free. Run your services as you wish. We will give you the tools, but the finished product is yours to construct. Free from the nanny state. Free from centralised government. Free from beurocrocy." But if anything is created that really shakes up the system, have no doubt it will be shut down or taken back by the state.

That said, it should be seen as an opportunity for some lefty types to do just that - shake up the system. Get a squad of Neighbourhood Action Group (NAG's - the official parlance for them round here...) to put time and effort into organising something that does challenge the status quo, and watch it get shut down. This will show them not only how to organise, but also may just radicalise some of the least likely people one could ever imagine.

Also, those slating Cameron for this; it's hardly thatcherite levels of political cuntishness, is it? "please help us save a few quid so we can pay back the ridiculous amounts of money that we owe - this is how I will sell you a way of cutting the budgets on your local libraries, yet still allow them to exist, albeit in a less professional and organised way than your used to". It's no miners strike...

 

[Jon-of-arc]

I'm impressed - genuinely.

you shouldn't be - its a lie...

 

[Giles]

Jesus fucking christ, is this trainwreck still going?


Very simply; "Big Society" = cuts to public services, cuts to welfare, attacks on the poor, attacks on single parents, attacks on the disabled, making people work the jobs they've just been sacked from for free, in order for money to be directed instead to poorly thought out schemes run by millionaires to line each others pockets more than anything else. Anyone who thinks it has anything to do with "true democracy" or empowering communities to work together is either incredibly thick or desperately attempting to justify being a horrible human being.

Less taking money off people under threat of imprisonment = inherently a good thing in my book.

Why is spending less of other people's money on someone else an "attack" on that person or group of people?

Giles..

 

[_angel_]

How often are people imprisoned for tax fraud generally??
Do you feel the same way about people jailed for benefit fraud?
I wouldn't jail either, actually.

Making people work for free, nothing or less than the legal minimum wage is definitely an attack. So is leaving them to starve.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Less taking money off people under threat of imprisonment = inherently a good thing in my book.

Why is spending less of other people's money on someone else an "attack" on that person or group of people?

Giles..

Who's money?

Wealth is 'created' by exploiting the labour of others. At the very least those who are exploited should have access to a welfare state, to ensure they won't be thrown into grinding poverty if they get ill, or old, or lose their job - not this hollowed out privatised mess which will just seek to make profit from the exploited even at their most destitute, which the Tories and Liberals are determined to bequeath us.

 

[Swastika Eyes]

I'm all in favour of letting people make their own decisions, and empowerment. But for the Tories it is just an excuse for the justification of the status quo. the UK needs actual, real change - not this halfarsed propaganda campaign.

As Jon of Arc said:

But if anything is created that really shakes up the system, have no doubt it will be shut down or taken back by the state.

They need to properly decentralise power and embrace reform which actually limits government power, reform HoL, better democracy etc etc.

Pissing into the wind of course - it'll never happen - more likely is that they will screw the lower classes until the debt gets paid off then they'll try to carry on as usual...

 

[DotCommunist]

Less taking money off people under threat of imprisonment = inherently a good thing in my book.

Why is spending less of other people's money on someone else an "attack" on that person or group of people?

Giles..

petite bourgeois whining 'oh the taxes' dressed as meaningful politics.

 

[DotCommunist]

Free market sounds fine to me. Let people do what they fucking want instead of trying to control it all the time.

nah, that shit has been tried in the olden days. Kids up chimneys and black people on slave blocks. You want a return to that?

No, we make a state of the people and by the people. Its no good railing against 'the system' like you just started listening to Rage Against the Machine. The system is in thier hands. We don't break it down, we take it back.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Follwers of "The Thick of It" will recall that a plot around some bullshit called "The 4th Sector" was a major in theme in the last series. The similarities with "The Big Society" are a bit too much. Satire isn't really satire at all sometimes, just reportage.

 

[Streathamite]

. Nah, have a very limited government who work to our rules. They basically distribute money so that we can do the rest.

oh jeebus. let me spell this out to you, S-L-O-W-L-Y.
Once you have a govt - any govt - incharge of both taxation and cash disbursement - amongst many other things - the last thing they will ever do, in current circs, is make and keep themselves as 'limited' as possible. (Even if Cleggeron are proposing that, which they very much aren't).
It simply doesn't work like that.

 

[Blagsta]

Free market sounds fine to me. Let people do what they fucking want instead of trying to control it all the time.

Problem with that is that you then only get the people who already have power (i.e. rich people) running things, and they run them purely to get richer. They won't run them for the good of the people who actually use the services.