Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

[Cid]

I don’t agree with eating refined foods isn’t bad in itself. Who is going to be healthier in the long run? Somebody who has a couple of slices of refined white bread with marge for breakfast most days or somebody who has a couple of eggs? We’ve been fed this “a calorie is a calorie” thing and it’s not true. We’re seeing an epidemic of diseases of the metabolism and it is from what people put in their mouths along with lack of sleep and the environment they’re living in.

Sleep is another utterly bobbins thing that has been spun off the demonstrably false claims of one person. The 'calorie is not a calorie' thing in popular consciousness comes from that shitty journalist Taubes and his cronies. There are some elements of truth to it, but it broadly comes down to 'keep your diet reasonably balanced and you'll be fine', not 'fear all white bread'.

 

[8ball]

I think they're getting close with some of the more high-quality meat substitutes. Quorn is delicious but unfortunately it's as expensive, if not more so, than meat.

Yeah, agree with that. Quorn is pretty good (though I can’t eat that much without my guts playing up).

Also some of the burgers are really good.

 

[NoXion]

Getting fat from eating food with no nutrition seems like it would violate thermodynamics. What is all that adipose tissue being made out of then?

 

[editor]

That's contradictory nonsense.

Yep. It's frankly embarrassing stuff.

 

[NoXion]

Yep. It's frankly embarrassing stuff.

I'm sure if you lived off nothing but crisps and white bread, you'd have deficiencies in micronutrients, although I'm not sure how that would make you fat.

 

[editor]

Fairly comprehensive and balanced comparison here. But most non-ranty, non axe-grinding people probably knew this anyway:

Nutritionally, the major differences between plant-based and regular butter are that plant-based butters are cholesterol-free, generally lower in saturated fat, and higher in healthier monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats (6Trusted Source, 14Trusted Source).

Still, while plant-based butters contain a healthier fatty acid profile, they’re just as calorie-dense as regular butter. As a result, eating too much of either can result in excessive calorie intake and potentially weight gain over time.

Overall, plant-based butters generally provide healthier types of fats. However, as they shouldn’t be a primary source of calories in your diet, choosing plant-based over regular butter alone is unlikely to significantly affect your health.

Plant-based butter is a vegan alternative to regular dairy butter.

In general, plant-based butter products are lower in saturated fat and higher in monounsaturated fat than regular butter. They may also be better for the environment.

However, some brands are more highly processed than others. As a result, it’s important to choose products that contain fewer refined oils and artificial additives.

Moreover, some products may be more expensive or difficult to find than regular butter.

Overall, plant-based butter is a calorie-dense food that’s low in important nutrients. Therefore, it’s best to consume these products in moderation and get the bulk of your calories from nutritious, whole foods like fruits, vegetables, nuts, and legumes.

Is Plant-Based Butter Healthy? Nutrition and How It Compares

Plant-based diets have grown in popularity due to their benefits for health, the environment, and animal welfare. This article reviews the nutritional content of plant-based butters, their potential benefits and downsides, and how they compare to real butter.

www.healthline.com

 

[NoXion]

Also, the demonisation of dietary fat has introduced a whole range of awful-tasting "reduced fat" products that I diligently avoid. Food manufacturers replacing fat with sugar isn't an improvement.

It's also fallacious; like assuming that eating protein will automatically make you muscular. I can attest that my own protein-rich diet has not improved my wet-noodle muscle tone.

 

[editor]

Another interesting, Spanish-based study here:

This study shows that the majority of plant-based cheese alternatives available in Spanish supermarkets do not have a good nutritional profile.

Nevertheless, although relatively few products are available, healthier options could be found, such as those goods composed mainly of cashew nuts and tofu.

The replacement of dairy cheese by cashew nut- and tofu-based plant-based alternatives could reduce intakes of salt and total fats, while replacing the intake of saturated with unsaturated fats. Future investigations should address the health effects of substituting dairy cheese with plant-based cheese products. The assessment of the environmental impact of plant-based cheese also deserves further attention.

Nutritional Quality of Plant-Based Cheese Available in Spanish Supermarkets: How Do They Compare to Dairy Cheese?

Plant-based cheese is one of the most increasingly consumed dairy alternatives. Evidence is lacking on their nutritional quality. We aimed to evaluate the nutritional composition of the plant-based cheese options available in Spanish supermarkets, and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

If science ever cracks decent-tasting, reasonably nutritious vegan cheese I suspect there'll be a whole load more people switching from veggie to vegan.

 

[Mr Retro]

You don’t need carbs for energy.

Wrong. Calories are calories. The reason that there's an obesity epidemic is because many people are consuming more calories than they are expending in physical activity. Processed foods are easier to digest, why else do you think it's so easy to get fat eating them?

Quality of calories makes a massive difference to peoples health. If you are feeding your engine with poor quality fuel you make yourself sick. There is evidence of that all around us today.

You don’t need carbs for energy. You especially do not need poor quality carbs for it. I eat very few carbs and I’ve never been more energetic and healthier. I cut down by wearing a glucose monitor and stopped eating the foods that caused my blood sugar and thus my insulin levels to spike. I get my bloods done every 6 months now and all indicators keep improving since I cut out highly processed food, manufactured oil and cut carbs way down.

 

[editor]

You don’t need carbs for energy.

Quality of calories makes a massive difference to peoples health. If you are feeding your engine with poor quality fuel you make yourself sick. There is evidence of that all around us today.

You don’t need carbs for energy. You especially do not need poor quality carbs for it. I eat very few carbs and I’ve never been more energetic and healthier. I cut down by wearing a glucose monitor and stopped eating the foods that caused my blood sugar and thus my insulin levels to spike. I get my bloods done every 6 months now and all indicators keep improving since I cut out highly processed food, manufactured oil and cut carbs way down.

So your meat diet led to health problems. Sorry to hear that.

 

[DaphneM]

Yeah, agree with that. Quorn is pretty good (though I can’t eat that much without my guts playing up).

So your meat-free diet led to health problems. Sorry to hear that.

 

[8ball]

So your meat-free diet led to health problems. Sorry to hear that.

Not a meat free diet at all. I just bought some of their nuggets because someone on here said they were pretty good.
Which they are. In moderation. Reactions to Quorn are very common.

Keep an EpiPen handy if trying them for the first time.

 

[Mr Retro]

So your meat diet led to health problems. Sorry to hear that.

No it didn’t. As I said my carb rich, processed food diet did. And I proved it by getting tested and wearing glucose monitors.

 

[editor]

So your meat-free diet led to health problems. Sorry to hear that.

And another failed troll makes you look stupid again.

 

[ddraig]

.

 

[editor]

No it didn’t. As I said my carb rich, processed food diet did. And I proved it by getting tested and wearing glucose monitors.

What's your personal bad diet choices got to do with the topic of this thread?

 

[Mr Retro]

Sleep is another utterly bobbins thing that has been spun off the demonstrably false claims of one person. The 'calorie is not a calorie' thing in popular consciousness comes from that shitty journalist Taubes and his cronies. There are some elements of truth to it, but it broadly comes down to 'keep your diet reasonably balanced and you'll be fine', not 'fear all white bread'

Really recommend “Why we Sleep” by Mathew Walker. Cracker of a book about the science of sleep

 

[Cid]

You don’t need carbs for energy.

Quality of calories makes a massive difference to peoples health. If you are feeding your engine with poor quality fuel you make yourself sick. There is evidence of that all around us today.

You don’t need carbs for energy. You especially do not need poor quality carbs for it. I eat very few carbs and I’ve never been more energetic and healthier. I cut down by wearing a glucose monitor and stopped eating the foods that caused my blood sugar and thus my insulin levels to spike. I get my bloods done every 6 months now and all indicators keep improving since I cut out highly processed food, manufactured oil and cut carbs way down.

Your brain very specifically requires glucose to function properly. It can get some of its energy from ketones, though most on low carb diets won’t be in ketosis. And if you are in ketosis, you’ll still need glucose, which your body gets via gluconeogenesis.

The rest is just anecdote; I’ve had similar warning signs and all I did was cut down on drinking, make an effort to cook more and get back on the bike. Same result and I don’t have to kick myself for eating the odd pizza or develop complexes around various food groups.

 

[Cid]

Really recommend “Why we Sleep” by Mathew Walker. Cracker of a book about the science of sleep

It’s full of shit and has been debunked.

 

[NoXion]

You don’t need carbs for energy.

Quality of calories makes a massive difference to peoples health. If you are feeding your engine with poor quality fuel you make yourself sick. There is evidence of that all around us today.

You don’t need carbs for energy. You especially do not need poor quality carbs for it. I eat very few carbs and I’ve never been more energetic and healthier. I cut down by wearing a glucose monitor and stopped eating the foods that caused my blood sugar and thus my insulin levels to spike. I get my bloods done every 6 months now and all indicators keep improving since I cut out highly processed food, manufactured oil and cut carbs way down.

You absolutely do need carbs, especially if you are physically active. It's a source of energy that's more readily available to the body than fat or protein. That ready availability is also what makes it easy to over-eat them, especially if one isn't physically active and the carbs come in the form of sugars or refined flours. That's why obesity and diabetes are such big problems.

If I hadn't taken sandwiches and Kendal mint cake with me on my trip up Snowdon in 2018, I would have fucking collapsed. People can and do over-indulge in carbs without enough fibre to go with them, but the idea that we don't need carbs is just arrant nonsense.

 

[8ball]

Bit confused about where sleep has come into this.
Sleep is good.

 

[NoXion]

Not a meat free diet at all. I just bought some of their nuggets because someone on here said they were pretty good.
Which they are. In moderation. Reactions to Quorn are very common.

Keep an EpiPen handy if trying them for the first time.

You know, I wish I knew why I'm seemingly not allergic to anything. It's great not having to worry about eating certain things, and I'd like others to have the chance to experience the same.

 

[8ball]

You know, I wish I knew why I'm seemingly not allergic to anything. It's great not having to worry about eating certain things, and I'd like others to have the chance to experience the same.

Maybe you ate a lot of mud as a toddler.

I think it's just a sensitivity to one of the proteins rather than an allergy as such with me and Quorn.
We didn't evolve to eat mould, so it's not that surprising.

I'd like to not be allergic to shiitake mushrooms, penicillin and whatever pollen is about in August, though.

 

[Cid]

Bit confused about where sleep has come into this.
Sleep is good.

It is. But the specific 8 hours a day, any less and you’re a mess of metabolic disease and vulnerable to heart disease is bobbins…

 

[editor]

It’s full of shit and has been debunked.

I looked it up and found this. Ouch!

Matthew Walker's "Why We Sleep" Is Riddled with Scientific and Factual Errors - Alexey Guzey

See discussion of this essay on the forum, Hacker News (a), Marginal Revolution (a), Andrew Gelman’s blog 1 (a), 2 (a), 3 (a), 4 (a), /r/slatestarcodex (a), Twitter (a), listen to BBC interviewing me and Walker himself about it or listen to my interview with Smart People Podcast discussing it...

guzey.com

 

[8ball]

It is. But the specific 8 hours a day, any less and you’re a mess of metabolic disease and vulnerable to heart disease is bobbins…

Serious sleep deprivation def messes with your metabolism, though. I expect the precise amounts vary by person.
It's regularly quoted that Einstein liked a minimum of 10 hours.

I personally like about five and a half hours decent sleep each night and an hour mid-afternoon.

 

[Mr Retro]

Your brain very specifically requires glucose to function properly. It can get some of its energy from ketones, though most on low carb diets won’t be in ketosis. And if you are in ketosis, you’ll still need glucose, which your body gets via gluconeogenesis.

The rest is just anecdote; I’ve had similar warning signs and all I did was cut down on drinking, make an effort to cook more and get back on the bike. Same result and I don’t have to kick myself for eating the odd pizza or develop complexes around various food groups.

I’m not in ketosis but I dip in and out. I work up to a few days fasting every 6 months and I find being in ketosis before you fast for a bit makes it easier. Agree it’s just anecdote but it works for me and measurably so.

I wasn’t sick either - was a bit over weight and getting heavier as I got older. Starting to look like fake food water Bill Gates if you will. I want to be around for the grandkids and I agree it’s just anecdote but it works for me both in my detailed blood results and in how I feel.

 

[Cid]

Serious sleep deprivation def messes with your metabolism, though. I expect the precise amounts vary by person.
It's regularly quoted that Einstein liked a minimum of 10 hours.

Yeah but everyone says everything about Einstein. Sleep obviously is important - the problem is that the specific ideas raised in Walker's book do not stand up to scrutiny and have been widely spread through society in general. The Tl:dr is you're probably getting enough sleep, and worrying about it will only make it worse.

I apologise for embracing this whole tangent about diet and sleep, it just annoys the shit out of me that so much stuff is uncritically accepted in those spaces. And it is incredibly widespread and can be profoundly damaging; eating disorders, people swinging into depression because they ate a carb, keto/low carb ending up verging on being meat promo (you can low carb vegan of course, it's just harder), assumption that keto will be just fine (we have very little idea of long-term impacts).

 

[8ball]

Yeah but everyone says everything about Einstein. Sleep obviously is important - the problem is that the specific ideas raised in Walker's book do not stand up to scrutiny and have been widely spread through society in general. The Tl:dr is you're probably getting enough sleep, and worrying about it will only make it worse.

I apologise for embracing this whole tangent about diet and sleep, it just annoys the shit out of me that so much stuff is uncritically accepted in those spaces. And it is incredibly widespread and can be profoundly damaging; eating disorders, people swinging into depression because they ate a carb, keto/low carb ending up verging on being meat promo (you can low carb vegan of course, it's just harder), assumption that keto will be just fine (we have very little idea of long-term impacts).

Fair point about Einstein - that's why I said "quoted".
There has been a fair amount of discussion about Matt Walker's book, but it seems at the very least that there are plenty of factual inaccuracies and some important omissions.

Should really be a matter of finding the amount of sleep where you feel your best imo (which, incidentally is also Alexey Guzey's* conclusion).

* - author of the piece that editor linked to

 

[Cid]

I’m not in ketosis but I dip in and out. I work up to a few days fasting every 6 months and I find being in ketosis before you fast for a bit makes it easier. Agree it’s just anecdote but it works for me and measurably so.

I wasn’t sick either - was a bit over weight and getting heavier as I got older. Starting to look like fake food water Bill Gates if you will. I want to be around for the grandkids and I agree it’s just anecdote but it works for me both in my detailed blood results and in how I feel.

It's not that it doesn't work as such... Making lifestyle changes is how you get a handle on these things. The problem is that the promoters of these systems deal in absolutes; you need to be low carb, if that doesn't work you're not doing it right etc. If it works for you and feels sustainable, that's great... though tbh I will caveat that as again we don't really know the impact of repeated ketosis, or even long-term low carb in general (especially for high meat/high meat fat stuff). Point is that there are numerous ways of doing these things, some will work great for some people and be crap for others (e.g no fucking way am I fasting - physical job)... But that isn't what the likes of Taubes will tell you, it's their pet theory or you're doomed.