Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

[Karl Masks]

And that opinion piece you posted up (complete with your own unpleasant mental health slur) has been thoroughly debunked anyway.

Clearing Up Choline Confusion

A new article is stirring up confusion about the nutrient choline. Don’t be confused: For the most healthful sources of choline, plant-based diets are the clear choice.

www.pcrm.org

I'm not sure much can be gleaned from either article. We can see which foods have the most choline, as with any nutrient. It's not a secret. You can plan your diet accordingly. Neither are studies. However the former cites references while the latter does not. Both are opinion pieces. The latter makes the claim that "picking plants" promotes brain health citing only one study as evidence. I'm not sure one can infer a conflict of interest from the fact the author of the former consulted for the egg industry. She also worked for Big Quorn.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The article rebutting the BMJ article is pretty poor in standard. It throws around straw men in a way that the other article does not. I'm not saying that there ought to be a worry wrt choline for vegans. Seems to me the evidence is not clear. But that article doesn't help itself when it says things like:

But picking plants promotes brain health. One study found that aging adults who consumed more than 2.8 servings of vegetables per day had significantly slower rates of mental decline than those who ate fewer servings. Green leafy vegetables, in particular, were most strongly associated with a decreased rate of mental decline.

I eat more than 2.8 servings of vegetables per day, including green leafy veg. I also eat meat, dairy and eggs. Nobody sensible is saying that a healthy diet doesn't include a range of fruit and veg. Certainly nobody on this thread.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Nobody sensible is saying that a healthy diet doesn't include a range of fruit and veg. Certainly nobody on this thread.

I believe that is the official Karl Masks line. He has said he avoids fruit and veg.

 

[editor]

I'm not sure much can be gleaned from either article. We can see which foods have the most choline, as with any nutrient. It's not a secret. You can plan your diet accordingly. Neither are studies. However the former cites references while the latter does not. Both are opinion pieces. The latter makes the claim that "picking plants" promotes brain health citing only one study as evidence. I'm not sure one can infer a conflict of interest from the fact the author of the former consulted for the egg industry. She also worked for Big Quorn.

Do you have a single shred of credible evidence that a deficiency of choline is causing widespread and serious problems for most vegans/vegetarians? If not, what the fuck are you going on and on about?

 

[butcher]

Do you have a single shred of credible evidence that a deficiency of chorine is causing widespread and serious problems for most vegans/vegetarians? If not, what the fuck are you going on and on about?

Obviously comparing the opinion piece I posted and the one you posted.

I know reading the content links you post is not your forte, I thought it was a fair comment on both posts.

 

[editor]

Obviously comparing the opinion piece I posted and the one you posted.

I know reading the content links you post is not your forte, I thought it was a fair comment on both posts.

So do you have credible evidence - not opinion pieces - that a deficiency of choline is causing widespread and serious problems for most vegans/vegetarians?

 

[kabbes]

So do you have credible evidence - not opinion pieces - that a deficiency of chorine is causing widespread and serious problems for most vegans/vegetarians?

Choline. Just in the spirit of helping you fix that autocorrect problem.

 

[editor]

This is getting embarrassing now:

Vegetarians can get some choline in eggs and milk products. And there are several plant-based, vegan sources of choline, including legumes, tofu, green vegetables, potatoes, nuts, seeds, grains, and fruit—all of which contain some amounts of choline.

Getting Choline on a Vegetarian and Vegan Meal Plan - Sharon Palmer, The Plant Powered Dietitian

How much choline should you get if you eat a vegetarian or vegan diet? Here's how to get Choline on a Vegetarian and Vegan Meal Plan.

sharonpalmer.com

Vegan Foods High in Choline

1. Soybeans: 107 mg, 19% DV​

The best vegan source of choline, roasted soybeans contain 107 milligrams in each 1/2-cup serving, according to the NIH. That's equal to 19 percent of the daily value for people AMAB and 25 percent for people AFAB. If you prefer your soy in tofu form, a 1/2 cup of extra-firm tofu contains 33 milligrams of choline, according to the USDA.

2. Red Potatoes: 57 mg, 10% DV​

Next on the list of plant-based sources of choline is red potatoes, which serve up 57 milligrams in each large cooked potato. Russet potatoes have almost as much, coming in with 45 milligrams of choline per large, cooked potato, according to the USDA.
Although potatoes are sometimes villainized as the least nutritious of all the vegetables, it's easy to incorporate them into your diet healthfully with these potato recipes.

3. Wheat Germ: 51 mg, 9% DV​

Whole grains are tops in nutrition, and that includes wheat germ, which is an excellent source of thiamin and a good source of folate, magnesium, phosphorus and zinc, according to the Mayo Clinic. Sprinkle 1 tablespoon of toasted wheat germ over hot or cold cereal, and you'll get 51 milligrams of choline in your diet.

4. Kidney Beans: 45 mg, 8% DV​

If you're looking for a vegan source of nutrition, you can't go wrong with beans. Canned kidney beans, in particular, have 45 milligrams of choline per 1/2-cup serving.
Other beans can add a bit of choline to your diet, too — black beans and garbanzo beans both offer about the same.

5. Quinoa: 43 mg, 8% DV​

Let's go back to those whole grains — quinoa is not only an excellent source of complete, plant-based protein, but it also contains 43 milligrams per 1-cup serving cooked. You can eat the grain for any meal of the day with these quinoa recipes.

6. Brussels Sprouts: 32 mg, 6% DV​

You either love them or you hate them, but there's no denying that Brussels sprouts are a great vegan source of choline. Each 1/2 cup serving of boiled and chopped Brussels sprouts has 32 milligrams of the nutrient.

7. Broccoli: 31 mg, 6% DV​

Broccoli is a powerhouse in terms of nutrition, and each 1/2 cup of cooked, chopped broccoli contains 31 milligrams of choline. If you have leftover cooked broccoli, try out a recipe for Broccoli Hash with Eggs or combine it with cauliflower for Creamy Broccoli and Cauliflower Soup.

8. Shiitake Mushrooms: 27 mg, 5% DV​

Mushrooms provide all the umami of meat while being plant-based. Out of all of the varieties, shiitake mushrooms are the highest in choline. A 1/2 cup of cooked shiitake mushroom pieces serves up 27 milligrams of the nutrient.

9. Peanuts: 24 mg, 4% DV​

A family favorite — as long as there aren't any allergies — peanuts provide 24 milligrams of choline per 1/4 cup serving. Peanut butter has nearly as much, containing 21 milligrams in every 2 tablespoons, according to the USDA. You don't need to stick to sandwiches, though — try out a peanut butter recipe that doesn't require bread.

20 Foods High in Choline for Better Brain Health | Livestrong.com

Foods high in choline include beef and liver, eggs, soybeans, chicken, cod, peanuts, potatoes and more. Check out the foods high in choline chart for more.

www.livestrong.com

 

[editor]

And:

The leading authority on nutrition in the UK, the British Dietetic Association, shares the message that well-planned vegan diets can support healthy living in people of all ages, including children and during pregnancy. The BDA has explicitly said: “You absolutely can meet the [choline] requirements with a vegan or plant-based diet.”

Statement on media reports about choline and vegan diets

Recent media reports have exaggerated the importance of choline in vegan nutrition but there are plenty of plant sources and no need to supplement.

www.vegansociety.com

A spokesman for the British Nutrition Foundation added: "It's likely that a healthy and varied vegetarian or vegan diet would provide some dietary choline.
"It's also important to make sure plant-based diets are well balanced to ensure enough of nutrients like iron, zinc calcium and vitamin B12 are consumed.
"Having said this we know that there can be many health benefits of following a more plant-based diet, although this doesn't necessarily mean that animal products have to be excluded completely."

The brain nutrient vegans need to know about - BBC News

People on vegan or plant-based diets must ensure they are getting enough choline, say experts.

www.bbc.co.uk

Why is everyone talking about choline and vegans? The truth behind the headlines

It seems everyone is talking about choline. Yet another nutrient to be blasted as deficient in a vegan diet, but where does the truth lie?

www.veganfoodandliving.com

 

[Karl Masks]

Choline, Choline, Choline, choline,

I'm begging you please, don't bake my ham

 

[editor]

Choline, Choline, Choline, choline,

I'm begging you please, don't bake my ham

So after making a chump of yourself with your totally unfounded 'concerns' about vegan diets, you've decided to play the joker? Classy.

 

[Karl Masks]

So after making a chump of yourself with your totally unfounded 'concerns' about vegan diets, you've decided to play the joker? Classy.

I didn't make any claims, unfounded or otherwise, why are you like this? I simply asked how a nutrient known to be most heavily present in meat is sourced in vegan diets. I am not remotely opposed to vegan diets at all. You seem to act as if, nutritionally speaking, veganism is no different than an omnivorous diet

 

[editor]

I didn't make any claims, unfounded or otherwise, why are you like this? I simply asked how a nutrient known to be most heavily present in meat is sourced in vegan diets. I am not remotely opposed to vegan diets at all. You seem to act as if, nutritionally speaking, veganism is no different than an omnivorous diet

Err, no I don't. But it's perfectly possible to have a very healthy veggie/vegan diet without bringing up a load of scaremongering codswallop about dietary deficiencies.

 

[newme]

This is getting embarrassing now:

Vegetarians can get some choline in eggs and milk products. And there are several plant-based, vegan sources of choline, including legumes, tofu, green vegetables, potatoes, nuts, seeds, grains, and fruit—all of which contain some amounts of choline.

Getting Choline on a Vegetarian and Vegan Meal Plan - Sharon Palmer, The Plant Powered Dietitian

How much choline should you get if you eat a vegetarian or vegan diet? Here's how to get Choline on a Vegetarian and Vegan Meal Plan.

sharonpalmer.com

Vegan Foods High in Choline

1. Soybeans: 107 mg, 19% DV​

The best vegan source of choline, roasted soybeans contain 107 milligrams in each 1/2-cup serving, according to the NIH. That's equal to 19 percent of the daily value for people AMAB and 25 percent for people AFAB. If you prefer your soy in tofu form, a 1/2 cup of extra-firm tofu contains 33 milligrams of choline, according to the USDA.

2. Red Potatoes: 57 mg, 10% DV​

Next on the list of plant-based sources of choline is red potatoes, which serve up 57 milligrams in each large cooked potato. Russet potatoes have almost as much, coming in with 45 milligrams of choline per large, cooked potato, according to the USDA.
Although potatoes are sometimes villainized as the least nutritious of all the vegetables, it's easy to incorporate them into your diet healthfully with these potato recipes.

3. Wheat Germ: 51 mg, 9% DV​

Whole grains are tops in nutrition, and that includes wheat germ, which is an excellent source of thiamin and a good source of folate, magnesium, phosphorus and zinc, according to the Mayo Clinic. Sprinkle 1 tablespoon of toasted wheat germ over hot or cold cereal, and you'll get 51 milligrams of choline in your diet.

4. Kidney Beans: 45 mg, 8% DV​

If you're looking for a vegan source of nutrition, you can't go wrong with beans. Canned kidney beans, in particular, have 45 milligrams of choline per 1/2-cup serving.
Other beans can add a bit of choline to your diet, too — black beans and garbanzo beans both offer about the same.

5. Quinoa: 43 mg, 8% DV​

Let's go back to those whole grains — quinoa is not only an excellent source of complete, plant-based protein, but it also contains 43 milligrams per 1-cup serving cooked. You can eat the grain for any meal of the day with these quinoa recipes.

6. Brussels Sprouts: 32 mg, 6% DV​

You either love them or you hate them, but there's no denying that Brussels sprouts are a great vegan source of choline. Each 1/2 cup serving of boiled and chopped Brussels sprouts has 32 milligrams of the nutrient.

7. Broccoli: 31 mg, 6% DV​

Broccoli is a powerhouse in terms of nutrition, and each 1/2 cup of cooked, chopped broccoli contains 31 milligrams of choline. If you have leftover cooked broccoli, try out a recipe for Broccoli Hash with Eggs or combine it with cauliflower for Creamy Broccoli and Cauliflower Soup.

8. Shiitake Mushrooms: 27 mg, 5% DV​

Mushrooms provide all the umami of meat while being plant-based. Out of all of the varieties, shiitake mushrooms are the highest in choline. A 1/2 cup of cooked shiitake mushroom pieces serves up 27 milligrams of the nutrient.

9. Peanuts: 24 mg, 4% DV​

A family favorite — as long as there aren't any allergies — peanuts provide 24 milligrams of choline per 1/4 cup serving. Peanut butter has nearly as much, containing 21 milligrams in every 2 tablespoons, according to the USDA. You don't need to stick to sandwiches, though — try out a peanut butter recipe that doesn't require bread.

20 Foods High in Choline for Better Brain Health | Livestrong.com

Foods high in choline include beef and liver, eggs, soybeans, chicken, cod, peanuts, potatoes and more. Check out the foods high in choline chart for more.

www.livestrong.com

Even if you ate a portion of every single one on that list it doesn't hit 100%
Assuming an attempt to optimise towards higher percentages that's 3 x soy beans at 19%, 2 x red potatoes at 10%, 3 lots of wheat germ at 9%. Every day. Specific and likely not a common combination.

If anything that list highlights quite how few things have any high % choline content within that diet. I had a similar issue when doing keto and people were saying magnesium and potassium were available through diet without supplements. It's doable sure but it's a very repetitively based on the highest % containing veg and often large or unrealistic quantities.

Soy additionally is not exactly a great one environmentally. Definitely better than beef but then so is chicken and basically every other meat. Especially if demand ramps up a huge amount then soy farms increase considerably and usually not in a very environmentally friendly manner.

 

[butcher]

Err, no I don't. But it's perfectly possible to have a very healthy veggie/vegan diet without bringing up a load of scaremongering codswallop about dietary deficiencies.


A vegan diet

I hope that you take this on board with your opinion pieces too.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

New Our World in Data article on the number of sentient nonhuman animals slaughtered every day for food. All died in fear. Virtually all were tortured for most of their lives before they met this fate. As the author notes 'This number is so large that I find it impossible to comprehend.'

How many animals get slaughtered every day?

Hundreds of millions of animals get killed for meat every day.

ourworldindata.org

 

[butcher]

New Our World in Data article on the number of sentient nonhuman animals slaughtered every day for food. All died in fear. Virtually all were tortured for most of their lives before they met this fate. As the author notes 'This number is so large that I find it impossible to comprehend.'

View attachment 393155

How many animals get slaughtered every day?

Hundreds of millions of animals get killed for meat every day.

ourworldindata.org

You do know stress impacts meat quality.

Why would anyone torture food animals, it ruins the meat.

How do they torture the fish? I mean I can see a wetsuit looks a bit gimpy but you are stretching things.....

 

[WouldBe]

This is getting embarrassing now:

Vegetarians can get some choline in eggs and milk products. And there are several plant-based, vegan sources of choline, including legumes, tofu, green vegetables, potatoes, nuts, seeds, grains, and fruit—all of which contain some amounts of choline.

Getting Choline on a Vegetarian and Vegan Meal Plan - Sharon Palmer, The Plant Powered Dietitian

How much choline should you get if you eat a vegetarian or vegan diet? Here's how to get Choline on a Vegetarian and Vegan Meal Plan.

sharonpalmer.com

Vegan Foods High in Choline

1. Soybeans: 107 mg, 19% DV​

The best vegan source of choline, roasted soybeans contain 107 milligrams in each 1/2-cup serving, according to the NIH. That's equal to 19 percent of the daily value for people AMAB and 25 percent for people AFAB. If you prefer your soy in tofu form, a 1/2 cup of extra-firm tofu contains 33 milligrams of choline, according to the USDA.

2. Red Potatoes: 57 mg, 10% DV​

Next on the list of plant-based sources of choline is red potatoes, which serve up 57 milligrams in each large cooked potato. Russet potatoes have almost as much, coming in with 45 milligrams of choline per large, cooked potato, according to the USDA.
Although potatoes are sometimes villainized as the least nutritious of all the vegetables, it's easy to incorporate them into your diet healthfully with these potato recipes.

3. Wheat Germ: 51 mg, 9% DV​

Whole grains are tops in nutrition, and that includes wheat germ, which is an excellent source of thiamin and a good source of folate, magnesium, phosphorus and zinc, according to the Mayo Clinic. Sprinkle 1 tablespoon of toasted wheat germ over hot or cold cereal, and you'll get 51 milligrams of choline in your diet.

4. Kidney Beans: 45 mg, 8% DV​

If you're looking for a vegan source of nutrition, you can't go wrong with beans. Canned kidney beans, in particular, have 45 milligrams of choline per 1/2-cup serving.
Other beans can add a bit of choline to your diet, too — black beans and garbanzo beans both offer about the same.

5. Quinoa: 43 mg, 8% DV​

Let's go back to those whole grains — quinoa is not only an excellent source of complete, plant-based protein, but it also contains 43 milligrams per 1-cup serving cooked. You can eat the grain for any meal of the day with these quinoa recipes.

6. Brussels Sprouts: 32 mg, 6% DV​

You either love them or you hate them, but there's no denying that Brussels sprouts are a great vegan source of choline. Each 1/2 cup serving of boiled and chopped Brussels sprouts has 32 milligrams of the nutrient.

7. Broccoli: 31 mg, 6% DV​

Broccoli is a powerhouse in terms of nutrition, and each 1/2 cup of cooked, chopped broccoli contains 31 milligrams of choline. If you have leftover cooked broccoli, try out a recipe for Broccoli Hash with Eggs or combine it with cauliflower for Creamy Broccoli and Cauliflower Soup.

8. Shiitake Mushrooms: 27 mg, 5% DV​

Mushrooms provide all the umami of meat while being plant-based. Out of all of the varieties, shiitake mushrooms are the highest in choline. A 1/2 cup of cooked shiitake mushroom pieces serves up 27 milligrams of the nutrient.

9. Peanuts: 24 mg, 4% DV​

A family favorite — as long as there aren't any allergies — peanuts provide 24 milligrams of choline per 1/4 cup serving. Peanut butter has nearly as much, containing 21 milligrams in every 2 tablespoons, according to the USDA. You don't need to stick to sandwiches, though — try out a peanut butter recipe that doesn't require bread.

20 Foods High in Choline for Better Brain Health | Livestrong.com

Foods high in choline include beef and liver, eggs, soybeans, chicken, cod, peanuts, potatoes and more. Check out the foods high in choline chart for more.

www.livestrong.com

So they contain choline. Have you noticed how low the values are?

To get your daily allowance of choline from broccoli you would need to eat about 10 cups full which works out around 5 pints.

And I'm not sure it's possible to eat your daily allowance in peanut butter. That's 66 tablespoons.


E2a: sorry that should be 33 tablespoons but still a huge amount.

 

[newme]

So they contain choline. Have you noticed how low the values are?

To get your daily allowance of choline from broccoli you would need to eat about 10 cups full which works out around 5 pints.

And I'm not sure it's possible to eat your daily allowance in peanut butter. That's 66 tablespoons.


E2a: sorry that should be 33 tablespoons but still a huge amount.

Yeh exactly, any restrictive diet has its drawbacks. Without supplements they do end up deficient in something or other unless you have a very prescribed and researched dietary intake.

Just about any diet is doable, doing them correctly is more complicated. Which includes meat eating diets, they just happen to be easier to balance due to less restrictions.

 

[editor]

So they contain choline. Have you noticed how low the values are?

To get your daily allowance of choline from broccoli you would need to eat about 10 cups full which works out around 5 pints.

And I'm not sure it's possible to eat your daily allowance in peanut butter. That's 66 tablespoons.


E2a: sorry that should be 33 tablespoons but still a huge amount.

Oh you're insisting on dragging this out, despite the clear medical advice?

OK, perhaps you could then link to the hundreeds of thousands of cases of choline deficiency causing major health problems for vegans/veggies.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

It’s a contributing factor to ailments a bit like air pollution would be. Are there any statistics for health problems caused primarily by pollution? Well there won’t be for choline deficiency either.

 

[editor]

It’s a contributing factor to ailments a bit like air pollution would be. Are there any statistics for health problems caused primarily by pollution? Well there won’t be for choline deficiency either.

Ah, it's some more hit and run whataboutery from you.

Choline has clear symptoms and isn't some mysterious ailment that can't be spotted.

What happens if you don’t get enough choline? Too much choline?

Symptoms of choline deficiency and toxicity can be found below. Symptoms of deficiency include liver disease, hemorrhagic kidney necrosis nand increased risk for neural tube defects and memory deficits later in life.

www.gbhealthwatch.com

What is choline? Benefits, deficiency, and sources

Choline is an essential nutrient that humans need for neurodevelopment and many other bodily functions. Learn more about choline here.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Ah, it's some more hit and run whataboutery from you.

Choline has clear symptoms and isn't some mysterious ailment that can't be spotted.

Hmm.

The importance of choline in the diet extends into adulthood and old age. In a study of healthy adult subjects deprived of dietary choline, 77% of the men and 80% of the postmenopausal women developed signs of subclinical organ dysfunction (fatty liver or muscle damage). Less than half of premenopausal women developed such signs.7Ten percent of the subjects studied developed fatty liver, muscle damage, or both when they consumed the Adequate Intake (AI) of choline. The damage was reversed when they consumed a high-choline diet. Plasma choline concentration has been found to vary in response to diet, decreasing approximately 30 percent in humans fed a choline-deficient diet for 3 weeks.4 Based on estimated dietary intakes and studies reporting liver damage with lower choline intakes, the Institute of Medicine, Food and Nutrition Board set the AI for choline at 425 milligrams/per day for women aged 19 and older, and 550 milligrams/per day for men aged 19 and older.

Choline: An Essential Nutrient for Public Health

Choline was officially recognized as an essential nutrient by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) in 1998. There is a significant variation in the dietary requirement for choline that can be explained by common genetic polymorphisms. Because of its wide-ranging ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Funky_monks]

You do know stress impacts meat quality.

Why would anyone torture food animals, it ruins the meat.

How do they torture the fish? I mean I can see a wetsuit looks a bit gimpy but you are stretching things.....

It's the ridiculous youtube/plant based news/peta propaganda.

Never met a vegan vet
Never met a vegan farmer

And yet, you'd suppose the "hideous torture" might put them off, its almost like it's a load of made up bollocks.

This is one of the reasons why I can no longer really be arsed with this thread, Ive described lots of nuance, posted up a fuckton of peer-reviewed research and highlighted that thousands of scientists utterly disagree with the idea of a future without livestock farming.

And yet, the same bollocks, often from the same handful of sources keeps being spouted by a couple of loudmouth blokes, utterly unqualified in the field, with little to no knowledge or experience of farming because they simply know better than the scientists.

 

[stavros]

It also doesn't touch on the real problem causing global warming.

To be clear, I'm not on this thread advocating for one side or the other of the meat debate. What I am championing is the idea that climate change, and its solutions, are all-encompassing. There isn't a singular cause of it, but a huge number across the earth's many societies, and debating what is "the real problem causing" it doesn't advance our collective progress.

 

[newme]

Ah, it's some more hit and run whataboutery from you.

Choline has clear symptoms and isn't some mysterious ailment that can't be spotted.

What happens if you don’t get enough choline? Too much choline?

Symptoms of choline deficiency and toxicity can be found below. Symptoms of deficiency include liver disease, hemorrhagic kidney necrosis nand increased risk for neural tube defects and memory deficits later in life.

www.gbhealthwatch.com

What is choline? Benefits, deficiency, and sources

Choline is an essential nutrient that humans need for neurodevelopment and many other bodily functions. Learn more about choline here.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

You posted sources, two of us posed how difficult it would be to get 100% on those foods. Both are ignored, are those not relevant now?

 

[Funky_monks]

To be clear, I'm not on this thread advocating for one side or the other of the meat debate. What I am championing is the idea that climate change, and its solutions, are all-encompassing. There isn't a singular cause of it, but a huge number across the earth's many societies, and debating what is "the real problem causing" it doesn't advance our collective progress.

Not really.

The main cause of anthropogenic climate change is digging up carbon sequestered millions of years ago (fossil fuels) and burning it or somehow or other adding it to the atmosphere. Within agriculture that definitely does cover fossil fuel use in vehicles etc and synthetic fertiliser, but very little else. We did not invent ruminants, and there's no real evidence that agriculture has meant that more ruminants exist than otherwise would have.

Also, you have to balance that with keeping a vast global population alive.

 

[stavros]

Not really.

The main cause of anthropogenic climate change is...

This is the point I keep making: some factors are bigger than others, as you've explained, but we can't afford focus on just one or two.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This is the point I keep making: some factors are bigger than others, as you've explained, but we can't afford focus on just one or two.

We can't afford not to focus on fossil fuels. Fossil fuel use has just about stopped growing. Just about. It needs to be slashed. Yesterday.

We are nowhere near taking that issue even half seriously, decades after the first compelling evidence emerged that we need to. Anything else we do without doing that is simply irrelevant. You could disappear every cow on the planet tomorrow and replace them with zones of sustainable carbon sequestration and it would barely make a dent - maybe slow the rate of change down a bit, for a bit, at best. Anyone who thinks they are making a meaningful contribution to fighting global warming by giving up meat is kidding themselves.

These are different kinds of issues. Every day that fossil fuels are burned, carbon is added to the carbon cycle, making matters worse. Every day that current agriculture remains unreformed (ignoring land clearance to expand agriculture) is a day when its contribution to global warming remains basically at zero (even if there is a case for reforming it to produce a fixed negative contribution). The urgency, the need to act now, rests in the fossil fuel issue. Each year we are baking in more unreversible change.

 

[Funky_monks]

This is the point I keep making: some factors are bigger than others, as you've explained, but we can't afford focus on just one or two.

Disagree with respect to enteric methane etc - its part of a natural cycle, the methane cycle. Stopping farming ruminants will do very little with respect to the number of them, they'll just be replaced by wild ruminants. There's a paper modelling this somewhere, which I'll dig out if I can find it.