Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

[bcuster]

Hopefully, the meatless future doesn't look like this:

https://www.fox16.com/news/weird/beloved-new-york-swan-babies-rescued-after-mother-was-eaten-police-say/

Faye, the mama swan taken from Manlius pond, was eaten on Memorial Day

Update: More arrests made in killing of beloved swan stolen from village pond. Baby swans recovered.

www.syracuse.com

 

[Funky_monks]

Highly processed foods. Good for us, good for the environment...


Ultra-processed foods consumption as a promoting factor of greenhouse gas emissions, water, energy, and land use: A longitudinal assessment

 

[frogwoman]

In Ghana rn and one thing that strikes me is the number of feral or semi feral chickens and roosters running around, you hear cockadoodle doo several times a day (and night). I'm not saying it's an amazing life as a lot of them are very worse for wear but it's a 100 times better than the way we treat chickens in the UK. I don't see how anyone can say factory farming is better than this. If the meat industry in the UK was like this I wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

[frogwoman]

Even the chickens that 'belong to' someone basically roam around at will. I see them in cages at markets etc but they're left to scratch and fly around the majority of the time.

 

[bcuster]

 

[Funky_monks]

In Ghana rn and one thing that strikes me is the number of feral or semi feral chickens and roosters running around, you hear cockadoodle doo several times a day (and night). I'm not saying it's an amazing life as a lot of them are very worse for wear but it's a 100 times better than the way we treat chickens in the UK. I don't see how anyone can say factory farming is better than this. If the meat industry in the UK was like this I wouldn't have a problem with it.

View attachment 377244

My chooks used to wander where they will in the day but:

• Foxes know
• The little knobbers start to lay away under the hedge so you suddenly discover a pile of unspecified age eggs when you go to cut the hedge.
• They can get diseases more easily from wild birds and with AI being so rife in wild birds, Id give it a miss if I still had any.

 

[Funky_monks]

a) That lamb wants it's mum, why is that knobhead poking it for no reason and
b) Nobody eats the baby ones, you weirdo.

 

[domestos]

You probably do eat the babies, well 10 week olds, but you just didn't know. Studies regularly find that vegetarians are more intelligent than carnivores - give it a go. It may not be too late for you.

 

[WouldBe]

Studies regularly find that vegetarians are more intelligent than carnivores -

Have you read this thread?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You probably do eat the babies, well 10 week olds, but you just didn't know. Studies regularly find that vegetarians are more intelligent than carnivores - give it a go. It may not be too late for you.

Vegetarians - in this country at least - are mostly a group that have made a dietary decision based on thinking in particular ways about their diet.

I don't know what measures of intelligence are used in the studies you mention. Most measures have big problems with them - IQ tests, for example, have inbuilt biases of various kinds. It is also unclear exactly what is being measured by such studies or even if such a thing as intelligence can ever meaningfully be boiled down to a single general quantity g.

But even if something other than a culturally transmitted advantage is genuinely being found by those studies (BIG IF), you should expect to find that measure to be higher in a group that has been selected out of the general population as one that thinks carefully about a particular subject and has the motivation to act in particular way as a result. The subject matter chosen to create the sample isn't even that important if your goal is to create a biased sample that would be expected to score more highly on 'intelligence' tests.

But hey. You're superior, aren't you. Cool.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

I eat small fish, chicken and goat. Sustainably.
Stop eating soy, it fucks up the planet. Seen.
I grow it, I eat it. No motherfucker can take that away from me.

 

[frogwoman]

I think plant based agriculture when done badly has serious concerns for animal welfare too tbh - like the amount of small animals that get killed by combine harvesters

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I think plant based agriculture when done badly has serious concerns for animal welfare too tbh - like the amount of small animals that get killed by combine harvesters

A problem again exacerbated by the meat industry, who create the most demand for plant agriculture:

Data shows that over 71 % of all the EU agricultural land (land used to grow crops – arable land – as well as grassland for grazing or fodder production) is dedicated to feeding livestock. When excluding grasslands, and only taking into account land used for growing crops, we see that over 63 % of arable land is used to produce animal feed instead of food for people.

https://www.greenpeace.org/static/planet4-eu-unit-stateless/2019/02/83254ee1-190212-feeding-the-problem-dangerous-intensification-of-animal-farming-in-europe.pdf

 

[Funky_monks]

You probably do eat the babies, well 10 week olds, but you just didn't know. Studies regularly find that vegetarians are more intelligent than carnivores - give it a go. It may not be too late for you.

Tell me, an ex shepherd again how we eat 10 week old lambs again please.......

 

[frogwoman]

A problem again exacerbated by the meat industry, who create the most demand for plant agriculture:

Data shows that over 71 % of all the EU agricultural land (land used to grow crops – arable land – as well as grassland for grazing or fodder production) is dedicated to feeding livestock. When excluding grasslands, and only taking into account land used for growing crops, we see that over 63 % of arable land is used to produce animal feed instead of food for people.

https://www.greenpeace.org/static/planet4-eu-unit-stateless/2019/02/83254ee1-190212-feeding-the-problem-dangerous-intensification-of-animal-farming-in-europe.pdf

Well there are way more farm animals than people so makes sense

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Tell me, an ex shepherd again how we eat 10 week old lambs again please.......

Two second google reveals that “Most lambs/sheep are slaughtered at 10 weeks to 6 months, though some may be 14 months old”.

Sheep Farming in the UK | RSPCA - RSPCA - rspca.org.uk

Find out more about sheep farming in the UK, from indoor and outdoor lambing to livestock transport and slaughter.

www.rspca.org.uk

 

[Funky_monks]

Two second google reveals that “Most lambs/sheep are slaughtered at 10 weeks to 6 months, though some may be 14 months old”.

Sheep Farming in the UK | RSPCA - RSPCA - rspca.org.uk

Find out more about sheep farming in the UK, from indoor and outdoor lambing to livestock transport and slaughter.

www.rspca.org.uk

6 months way more realistic.

Gotta get em to 40-42 Kg on the hoof. Essentially mature by that age and not at all "babies".

 

[Spymaster]

In Ghana rn and one thing that strikes me is the number of feral or semi feral chickens and roosters running around, you hear cockadoodle doo several times a day (and night). I'm not saying it's an amazing life as a lot of them are very worse for wear but it's a 100 times better than the way we treat chickens in the UK. I don't see how anyone can say factory farming is better than this. If the meat industry in the UK was like this I wouldn't have a problem with it.

You're comparing apples with oranges. The chickens that you see running around free are Ghana's equivalent of free-range or small-holder birds. Free range chickens here are far healthier than what you see there.

Ghana's intensive chicken farming industry is the same as everyone elses.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

6 months way more realistic.

Gotta get em to 40-42 Kg on the hoof. Essentially mature by that age and not at all "babies".

If they’re lambs then by definition they’re not mature.

 

[Funky_monks]

If they’re lambs then by definition they’re not mature.

By definition, they are lambs because their first pair of broad teeth haven't erupted.
They are usually sexually mature by that age.

 

[kabbes]

If they’re lambs then by definition they’re not mature.

If they’re lambs then by definition they are under a year.

 

[Funky_monks]

Lamb - until lambs teeth fall out
Gimmer - broad teeth erupting
Hogget (or hogg), 1st pair adult teeth
Shearling (or theave) - In its first summer
2- tooth (or 2 shear) - 2 year old
Full mouthed - all sets of teeth present
Broken mouthed - so old some have started to fall out.

 

[kabbes]

That’s a proper shepherding set of definitions

 

[Funky_monks]

That’s a proper shepherding set of definitions

It'll be how they are sold through the markets too - any with broad teeth erupted will be marked and sold as hoggs as opposed to lambs (for which they usually get lower price per kilo as spinal cord needs to be removed post slaughter).
It's just all "lamb" when it reaches the consumer, because that's what they recognise.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

If they’re lambs then by definition they are under a year.

Yes.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Two second google reveals that “Most lambs/sheep are slaughtered at 10 weeks to 6 months, though some may be 14 months old”.

Sheep Farming in the UK | RSPCA - RSPCA - rspca.org.uk

Find out more about sheep farming in the UK, from indoor and outdoor lambing to livestock transport and slaughter.

www.rspca.org.uk

Two second google versus an actual shepherd.

A slightly longer google tells me that lamb grown in the UK or in New Zealand is typically pasture-fed and slaughtered at around six months. I did find a survey being conducted right now for Defra as it appears that the actual data isn't currently available here in the UK. The survey assumes that six to seven months is typical, as stated here by our actual shepherd, but wants to produce more accurate figures.

There is a form of lamb called milk-fed lamb, which is lambs slaughtered much earlier and only fed on milk. This is something that is eaten in Spain and Italy. It isn't really done here - and you're not going to buy it by accident as it is more expensive. You would have to buy it from a specialist butcher as it has to be imported from Spain.

ETA:

That survey is actually a decade old. I searched for the results but couldn't find them. However, weight at slaughter is recorded, so that assumption of six to seven months as typical is not based on nothing - it's based on weight at slaughter, which is going to be a pretty good guide. Again, as our resident ex-shepherd said, funnily enough.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Two second google versus an actual shepherd.

A slightly longer google tells me that lamb grown in the UK or in New Zealand is typically pasture-fed and slaughtered at around six months. I did find a survey being conducted right now for Defra as it appears that the actual data isn't currently available here in the UK. The survey assumes that six to seven months is typical, as stated here by our actual shepherd, but wants to produce more accurate figures.

There is a form of lamb called milk-fed lamb, which is lambs slaughtered much earlier and only fed on milk. This is something that is eaten in Spain and Italy. It isn't really done here - and you're not going to buy it by accident as it is more expensive. You would have to buy it from a specialist butcher as it has to be imported from Spain.

ETA:

That survey is actually a decade old. I searched for the results but couldn't find them. However, weight at slaughter is recorded, so that assumption of six to seven months as typical is not based on nothing - it's based on weight at slaughter, which is going to be a pretty good guide. Again, as our resident ex-shepherd said, funnily enough.

Great shifting of the goal posts. The ex shepherd scoffed at the idea that 'we eat 10 week old lambs' and stated 'nobody eats the baby ones'. He was wrong, they do. And the 'typical' age of slaughter was never in contention.

 

[Funky_monks]

Great shifting of the goal posts. The ex shepherd scoffed at the idea that 'we eat 10 week old lambs' and stated 'nobody eats the baby ones'. He was wrong, they do. And the 'typical' age of slaughter was never in contention.

I mean, I wasn't, but feel free to think that.

Unless, of course you think that a few people in Spain and Italy is somehow representative of what we eat in the UK.
Never seen a lamb that age in a market in my life - you might see suck lambs after lambing for bottle rearing and you might see stores at weaning to be grown on, but not for the abattoir trade.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Great shifting of the goal posts. The ex shepherd scoffed at the idea that 'we eat 10 week old lambs' and stated 'nobody eats the baby ones'. He was wrong, they do. And the 'typical' age of slaughter was never in contention.

Here in the UK, it is basically not done. Something like that is done in Spain, but we simply don't eat that meat here. So let's be a bit more honest about what we're talking about in our posts on this thread. Food and agriculture cultures and practices vary widely across the world. To rail against all lamb because of Spanish milk-lamb-style practices is like railing against all pate because of foie gras. Typically, lamb you will buy here in the UK, whether it is British or from New Zealand (the two main sources), will have been pasture-fed and slaughtered at about six months. That's the food and agriculture culture of this place.

Something I agreed with you about regarding the film Cow was that a strength of the film lay in the fact that was it was a typical British dairy farm - not especially good or bad. If you're buying milk from a shop, it will typically have been produced at a farm like that. If we're assessing the ethics of buying lamb here in the UK, we need to find similarly typical practices to base our judgements on.

 

[kabbes]

Yes.

So you’re saying that it’s a baby until it’s a year old? Or can it actually be a lamb and also not a baby?