Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
I wasn't really commenting on culpability, just remembering a particular case from when I was a lay visitor to police stations in Lambeth.
Brixton violence and looting (7th Aug 2011)
- Thread starter dozi
- Start date
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
Well how about the recent Smiley Culture case. Stabbed himself through the heart whilst the 2 visitng officers allowed him to make tea (unsupervised) in the kitchen next door. Mike Franklin from the Police Complains body admitted publicly at a Lambeth Town Hall meeting that would be a difficult one to explain away.
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
Does this not apply in any democratic assembly? Are you a neo-Platonist or what? (Plato's Republic decries democracy as government by the rabble resulting in the lowest common denominator. Rather we should have "Philosopher Kings" and "Guardians" specially selcted for their wisdom to look after us).
One can go for specially selected philosopher kings, but who selects them, how do you change them etc etc. Give me the windbags any day!
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
I think the fact that there were no riots when the Smiley Culture thing blew up - but there was a very large meeting in the town hall addressed by Mike Franklin, Lee Jasper, the Smiley Culture family and so on indicates that in Brixton it is possible to channel discontent and outrage politically.
Apparently not so in Tottenham for whatever reason. So whilst many people didn't like Lee Jasper & co requisitioning a meeting about Smiley Culture - you may have Lee Jasper to thank for safely venting community anger about Smiley Culture's death.
David Lammy was quick to denounce the rioting after it had happened - but why did he not mobilise his community first after the shooting. Then he could have assumed a leadership role rather than a reactive one? Maybe going to Harvard didn't help the street antennae?
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
It didn't help that the family in Tottenham sat for hours waiting to see a senior officer in the Police station but no-one could be bothered to speak to them. Pretty shoddy and certainly not far-sighted. More an 'ignore them and they'll go away' tactic, if you ask me. Didn't really work well in terms of community relations, did it?
Look at the source for the stats I provided - the trend is downwards. Argue about that. I'm not saying that all policemen are saints, or that serious mistakes aren't made.
As for the Consultative Group, I would simply say that there are a fair few community leaders who seem to love the sound of their own voices. A lot of time is wasted. I have only attended on four occasions and I didn't find the experience educational.
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
Darcus's interview was interesting - and pretty much what you would expect him to say. The interviewer was very condescending and called him "Marcus Dow" at the beginning - clearly didn't know who he was. Neither did she understand that people identifying with a murder situation are apt to become emotional.
Sorry if I'm reposting, but I found this next clip interesting:
http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16048584
These rioters interviewed apparently on the banks of the Thames complain about being "dissed" essentially. One of them says he targeted Comet because they did not reply to his CV when he applied for a job there.
Maybe Cameron & co can't understand all this because having had a public school life of fagging and and mental/sexual abuse they think that it is normal, indeed character forming, to be put down.
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
The stats don't deal with emotions. And emotions are at the root of the disturbances. You don't like meetings, you want us to tell the "yoot" the stats are getting better apparently. Join David Lammy, David Cameron, Ravi Govindia then. Increase repression. But that would bugger up your stats, would it not!
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
That's exatly what Jack Dromey (MR Hariett Harman) said when it was shown to him.
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
You are being obtuse. I am as much against rioting as anyone - I just say that Scarman found trigger events which set off the Brixton riots in 1981. Now you and Uncle Tom Cobbly and all seem to be deny there ARE any trigger events. You just think that the rioters are spontaneously wicked and should be punished.
To me that is not an analysis.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
You're claiming a trend of reform from the fact of a lessening of deaths in custody.
Fine, now please actually make a case for why you're right.
I would of course prefer non-violent protest and, in which case, I would join them.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
The stats show a lessening of deaths in custody, that's all they can show. How Emet believes this illustrates a general lessening in police brutality, though, is beyond me. There are alternate explanations for fewer deaths in custody besides "coppers are less brutal now".
He might fool himself, but he's not going to fool the youngsters, or even an old fart like me with his logic-free burbling.
Just one tiny aspect of reform. The police are drawn from different backgrounds, there is cctv everywhere - including police vehicles and stations, confessions were often forced, the police forged statements etc. The brutality of earlier decades was really something to behold. That has changed because it is so visible when it happens.
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
I still don't see how this negates the shock effect of someone being shot dead NOW. And OK the police have provided data showing the guy have criminal connections - but how about all the other non-criminal connections?
If my son/brother/uncle was shot dead I'd still be well upset - however much the Bill spin the dirt
You'll be producing these explanations, of course?
It isn't Wandsworth - reading today's Guardian there's a lot at it too. I believe this to be so, so insidious. What next? They are seeking to have it accepted that innocents can lose major social rights if they don't effectively police their children, or anyone in the household, from minor transgressions. They're saying they'll evict innocents because a kid in the household thieves a bottle of water, and no-one is challenging the concept.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
That's not reform, it's a change in personnel policy.
Yes, it was something to experience, too.
There are CCTV camera is houses that are raided?
In every single street, covering the majority of angles?
CCTV footage doesn't "go astray" or, if recorded onto digital media, get "accidentally" wiped?
"Contemporaneous notes" no longer get agreed in the station canteen?
I could go on, but it's too depressing.
The violence, criminality and misanthropy may not be as visible, but it's still there, as bad as ever.
Brixton Hatter
Home is south London mate
Got any suggestions?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Police pay has always, since the late 1970s, been in advance of the norm, and even before then, once you'd started getting annual increments, even a constable's salary could support a small family.
As for loss of pension as a motivation for good behaviour, how many corrupt coppers get put through the courts and lose their pensions, as against being allowed to retire with their pension rights intact? Last time I checked, in 2007, the Met were running at about 85% of coppers on disciplinaries being allowed to walk with their pensions, before they went before a board.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Just as soon as you make a case (that means not your thoughts and opinions, but facts that support them) that a lessening of deaths in police custody is attributable to "reform" in the police service.
I did ask first, after all, and all you've done since is post more waffle.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Here's a simple one. Let the law do it's job, and don't seek to score political points off of the suffering (because that's what being made homeless or threatened with homelessness is) of people peripheral to the actual issue.
