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Brixton violence and looting (7th Aug 2011)

CH1 said:
Don't want to get too off topic, but.. I went to Camberwell Magistrates Court this afternoon. Following all the fuss about 24hr sittings etc was expecting loads of looters to be up before the beak. I got there about 3.30pm and there were only two cases pending. I haven't been in that court before, but was surprised to find that in Court 1 the defendant has to sit in a glass box, and the "public gallery" is a sauna style enclosure with glass slats. There is a speaker system to relay the sound of the proceedings for the public, but it was turned off (or simply not working). Justice can be seen to be done - seen and not heard so to speak.
The judge looked a bit like former President Mubarrak, although he spoke more like Tariq Ali (as far as I could hear) , although on this occasion it was the public in the cage.
First up was a confused working class white woman of about 30 charged with looting one pair of ladies shoes (or so she gestured to her two supporters in the gallery). She was remanded in custody for a few more days for reports - "as there was a child involved" (one assumes she was a mother).
Second up and last for the day was a small African looking guy, anything between 25-35. He looked very innocent and demure, especially when the SERCO security guards kept flexing their rubber gloves at him. (Do all prisoners these days have AIDS/HIV or Hepatits? Or is it the SERCO staff that are infected?) Anyway Mr A denied any violence towards the police - completely contradicting police evidence. The judge sorted this out very elegantly - her refused bail on the grounds that the defendant's address could not be verified as genuine. Mr A became very agitated at this and was ranting on at the staff for a minute or two after the Judge had adjourned, risen and left the chamber.
On leaving the court I complained to the staff that it was almost impossible to hear the proceedings - they suggested I contact the building manager. They also confirmed they would not be open on Sunday, so obviously the Sky News/BBC News competitive hysteria has not reached Camberwell yet!
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This CH1 was one of your good posts. A revealing portrait of how the so called Justice system works beyond todays tabloid media crowing about rioters.
 
Article mentioning Milibands visit to Brixton yesterday:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/aug/12/ed-miliband-links-riots-scandals

What he says is a good deal more measured and willing to look at underlying causes of riots than the response by Steve Reed , other Lambeth Labour Cllrs and Chuka .

He said: "We have got to avoid simplistic answers. There's a debate some people are starting – is it culture, is it poverty and lack of opportunity? It's probably both."
He said the Scarman inquiry into the riots of the 1980s had had a long-term beneficial impact.

"Currently, the government is saying there is a select committee in the House of Commons that is going to look at these issues, and that's enough. But that select committee is only looking at the narrow policing and home affairs issues."

The Labour leader accepted that his party must bear some of the blame for the culture in which the rioters grew up, saying the party had not done enough when in power to reduce inequality.
 
Didnt notice that. Yes it says Scarman report is about riots of the 80s.

Ive noticed the 81 riot is the only one that politicians etc mention as well as media. Its, in a way, got the status now of a "good" riot.

I also find it curious that the riots that came after 81 are not discussed at all now. Not quite sure why this is.

Also Ive had to explain to people about the 81 riots. Some young people dont much about them.
 
Gramsci said:
Didnt notice that. Yes it says Scarman report is about riots of the 80s.

Ive noticed the 81 riot is the only one that politicians etc mention as well as media. Its, in a way, got the status now of a "good" riot.

I also find it curious that the riots that came after 81 are not discussed at all now. Not quite sure why this is.

Also Ive had to explain to people about the 81 riots. Some young people dont much about them.
Click to expand...

That 's probably because they weren't as "good" or go on for as long as the 81 riots. The 85 riots were nasty compared to the mid-90s one but nothing compared to the 81 riot. Similarly, ignoring everything else that happened in London, 2011's "riot" was more a case of a bit of looting and was pretty insignificant compared to the 81 or 85 riots. I barely even remember the one in the mid 90s.
 
I wasnt just thinking about Brixton.

Sadly I think the other riots are not so well remembered as people got used to having riots happen.

The Broadwater Farm riot was just as important as the 81 riot due to the level of hatred against the Police and the actual death of one Officer. And took place soon after the 1985 Brixton riot. It was started after the death of Cynthia Jarrett of a stroke when the Police searched her home.

The 1985 Brixton riot started after the shooting of Cherry Groce by Police during a search. By this time the Police were equipped and trained to deal with public disorder. Practise makes perfect.:rolleyes: So it wasnt so easy for the rioters compared to 81 when the cops were caught completely off guard with no riot gear.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2009/sep/30/brixton-riots-1985-archive

At the time of the 1985 riot the blame was put on a "criminal element"

Same with 1995 - started after the death of Wayne Douglas in Police custody.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/15/world/man-s-death-sets-off-riot-in-london.html

I think it was the 1995 one where the block of flats on the corner of Gresham road and CHL (where the big junction is) were burnt down. The ground floor furniture shop was set alight and the people above had to get out. The flats were destroyed. They were later rebuilt.

But all of this is , if not forgotten,is not looked at for similarities between then and now.

The recent Tottenham riot was in response to a death involving the Police. It almost as if nothing has changed.

See this letter from former resident of Broadwater Farm now living in Chile:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/12/crime-and-punishment-issues-riots
 
Gramsci said:
I wasnt just thinking about Brixton.

Sadly I think the other riots are not so well remembered as people got used to having riots happen.

The Broadwater Farm riot was just as important as the 81 riot due to the level of hatred against the Police and the actual death of one Officer. And took place soon after the 1985 Brixton riot. It was started after the death of Cynthia Jarrett of a stroke when the Police searched her home.

The 1985 Brixton riot started after the shooting of Cherry Groce by Police during a search. By this time the Police were equipped and trained to deal with public disorder. Practise makes perfect.:rolleyes: So it wasnt so easy for the rioters compared to 81 when the cops were caught completely off guard with no riot gear.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2009/sep/30/brixton-riots-1985-archive

At the time of the 1985 riot the blame was put on a "criminal element"

Same with 1995 - started after the death of Wayne Douglas in Police custody.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/15/world/man-s-death-sets-off-riot-in-london.html

I think it was the 1995 one where the block of flats on the corner of Gresham road and CHL (where the big junction is) were burnt down. The ground floor furniture shop was set alight and the people above had to get out. The flats were destroyed. They were later rebuilt.

But all of this is , if not forgotten,is not looked at for similarities between then and now.

The recent Tottenham riot was in response to a death involving the Police. It almost as if nothing has changed.

See this letter from former resident of Broadwater Farm now living in Chile:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/12/crime-and-punishment-issues-riots
Click to expand...

Yes, I realise that. I was actually talking about the disturbances/damage rather than the reasons behind it.

Off to bed so will have to read that tomorrow
 
Minnie_the_Minx said:
That 's probably because they weren't as "good" or go on for as long as the 81 riots. The 85 riots were nasty compared to the mid-90s one but nothing compared to the 81 riot. Similarly, ignoring everything else that happened in London, 2011's "riot" was more a case of a bit of looting and was pretty insignificant compared to the 81 or 85 riots. I barely even remember the one in the mid 90s.
Click to expand...
In one respect the '85 riot was like a preview of the Croydon "Reeves Corner" incident. The privately owned furniture shop on the corner of Barrington Road/ Coldharbour Lane/Gresham Road burnt down - with many flats above. This was actually shown collapsing into the ground on the TV news. So it certainly was nasty compared to '95. The owner was bemused to have been attacked by the community which also provided his loyal customers.
Curiously the social housing project replacing the burnt out shop and flats (Raphael House) has a roof terrace AND ground floor on-site parking for about ten cars, Not much employment generation there LBL/Metropolitan!
125903.jpg
 
I got that wrong then. Getting riots mixed up. The flats were burnt out in 1985. I agree it was a preview of Croydon. None of this has been mentioned when some politicians ( Lambeth Labour , Chuka) have been trying to say that the riots back then were different.

good photo CH1
 
Gramsci said:
I got that wrong then. Getting riots mixed up. The flats were burnt out in 1985. I agree it was a preview of Croydon. None of this has been mentioned when some politicians ( Lambeth Labour , Chuka) have been trying to say that the riots back then were different.

good photo CH1
Click to expand...
Thanks.
The 1985 riots were similar to now.
In 1985 we had Cherry Groce shot in the spine by police hunting down her son (alleged to be armed and hiding in her house). Subsequently another of her sons appealed for calm, whilst demanding answers of the police. In a nice Christian flourish he eventually made a stained glass "Peace Window" for St Matthews Church opposite the Fridge.

Now we have an alleged criminal shot dead in Tottenham, and the family appealing for calm, but demanding answers of the police.

Plus ça change?
 
I cannot believe it. I'm at my Dad's and the council (he doesn't live in Lambeth) have put round a leaflet to households on his estate saying they'd help the police by 'generating convictions for any disorder that does occur by sharing CCTV and other intelligence...we will robustly pursue any council tenants who are proved guilty of being involved in criminal activity and will seek evictions where appropriate....this also includes the behaviour of anyone, including children, who currently live or stay with you in your home.'

Been robbing millions of people and work as a banker? Have another million. Throwing hundreds of thousands on the dole? Well done. Is there a kid in your house who's stolen a pair of trainers? Hand over your house.

:mad:
 
Gramsci said:
I got that wrong then. Getting riots mixed up. The flats were burnt out in 1985. I agree it was a preview of Croydon. None of this has been mentioned when some politicians ( Lambeth Labour , Chuka) have been trying to say that the riots back then were different.
Click to expand...
A decade ago I spent an afternoon in the Tate library reading a report about the activity of the police in Brixton (circa 1980). It was very clear the locals were treated with extraordinary brutality in the 1970's. That has changed. The police don't, indeed can't, behave like that any more. Maybe, that is part of the difference. The police of 2011 are quite fluffy by comparison.
 
Fenian said:
I cannot believe it. I'm at my Dad's and the council (he doesn't live in Lambeth) have put round a leaflet to households on his estate saying they'd help the police by 'generating convictions for any disorder that does occur by sharing CCTV and other intelligence...we will robustly pursue any council tenants who are proved guilty of being involved in criminal activity and will seek evictions where appropriate....this also includes the behaviour of anyone, including children, who currently live or stay with you in your home.'

Been robbing millions of people and work as a banker? Have another million. Throwing hundreds of thousands on the dole? Well done. Is there a kid in your house who's stolen a pair of trainers? Hand over your house.

:mad:
Click to expand...
Must be Wandsworth. Leader of Wandsworth Council has been on Newsnight and Radio 4's PM promoting a policy of evicting council tenants involved with rioting (even at 2nd hand) Ravi Govindia used to be a nice guy when he worked for Greater London Association for Disability in Brixton Road. Maybe the looting of Debenhams has stirred deep and painful memories of how he and his family were treated by Idi Amin before they had to flee Uganda?
 
newbie said:
the petrol station opposite was also firebombed that night. :eek:
Click to expand...

I forgot this as well. It would be good to have some proper historical record of the previous riots.

Even a right winger like Kate Birbalsingh has trotted out the line that u cant relate the 80s riots to the recent one in Tottenham etc:

"The relationship between the police and the black community in the 1980s was extremely problematic, and I have to say that I have sympathies for the rioters of yesteryear."

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/k...re-racist-we-must-teach-them-about-the-1980s/
 
Emet said:
A decade ago I spent an afternoon in the Tate library reading a report about the activity of the police in Brixton (circa 1980). It was very clear the locals were treated with extraordinary brutality in the 1970's. That has changed. The police don't, indeed can't, behave like that any more. Maybe, that is part of the difference. The police of 2011 are quite fluffy by comparison.
Click to expand...
Personally, I would consider being shot dead fairly brutal!
 
There are still loads of people dying in police custody all over the country. As for Brixton - what do you think those Voodo-type things are round the tree outside the police station - they commemorate people who have died in custody - like Sean Rigg the black mental health "survivor" whose survival was TERMINATED by a couple of hours in Brixton nick! If you want to educate yourself about policing issues in Brixton, attend the Community Police Consultative Group for Lambeth (as set up by Lord Scarman). Just reading either the Scarman Report, or Lambeth Council's earlier Report into Policing won't tell you about the problems of today will it? Now is 2011 - not 1981!
 
CH1 said:
There are still loads of people dying in police custody all over the country. As for Brixton - what do you think those Voodo-type things are round the tree outside the police station - they commemorate people who have died in custody - like Sean Rigg the black mental health "survivor" whose survival was TERMINATED by a couple of hours in Brixton nick! If you want to educate yourself about policing issues in Brixton, attend the Community Police Consultative Group for Lambeth (as set up by Lord Scarman). Just reading either the Scarman Report, or Lambeth Council's earlier Report into Policing won't tell you about the problems of today will it? Now is 2011 - not 1981!
Click to expand...
You are mistaken. In 1990 there were 19 deaths in police custody in the Metropolitan police area and in 2010, just 3.

http://inquest.gn.apc.org/website/statistics/deaths-in-police-custody
 
I have attended the Community Police Consultative Group for Lambeth: never came across so many egotistical windbags in one room.
 
Emet said:
You are mistaken. In 1990 there were 19 deaths in in police custody in the Metropolitan police area and in 2010, just 3.

http://inquest.gn.apc.org/website/statistics/deaths-in-police-custody
Click to expand...
I know of one death in police custody that was not what people think. A man was found lying on the pavement in Clapham. The ambulance crew refused to take him to hospital on the grounds that he was drunk and so the police took him into custody to sleep it off. When he was taken to the station the custody sergeant was concerned about him and got him taken straight to hospital where he died. He had a non-visible head injury and it was likely that he'd been attacked before being seen by the ambulance crew. That was counted as a death in police custody.
 
Mrs Magpie said:
I know of one death in police custody that was not what people think. A man was found lying on the pavement in Clapham. The ambulance crew refused to take him to hospital on the grounds that he was drunk and so the police took him into custody to sleep it off. When he was taken to the station the custody sergeant was concerned about him and got him taken straight to hospital where he died. He had a non-visible head injury and it was likely that he'd been attacked before being seen by the ambulance crew. That was counted as a death in police custody.
Click to expand...
So that's one the police don't deserve!
 
Imagine a situation where someone has never been in the police station, is dangerously ill but for some reason is arrested in the hospital and dies in hospital, that will be counted as a death in custody too. It's important to look at each case rather than taking statistics at face value. Equally the police could be culpable for a death where no arrest is made and that wouldn't show up in the death in custody figures at all.
 
Mrs Magpie said:
Imagine a situation where someone has never been in the police station, is dangerously ill but for some reason is arrested in the hospital and dies in hospital, that will be counted as a death in custody too. It's important to look at each case rather than taking statistics at face value. Equally the police could be culpable for a death where no arrest is made and that wouldn't show up in the death in custody figures at all.
Click to expand...
The stats I've given don't attribute culpability. But they do show a trend downwards.
 
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