I suggest we all state in the strongest terms possible that human rights are not negotiable on a bad news day. I suggest that political leaders or politicians are not let off the hook but are called on to give a perspective on this disgusting concept. They should not be allowed to forget their comments, least of all when they presume to seek votes again.
Brixton violence and looting (7th Aug 2011)
- Thread starter dozi
- Start date
That is a reform.
cctv is invaluable in protecting those in custody from abuse by the police. That was a reform.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I have to ask: Are you a police officer, serving or otherwise? It'd explain a lot.
Anyway.
CCTV isn't a "reform", it's a technological advancement. One that allows all sorts of bodies to both surveil and to enforce self-governance. Use of TV has and had very little to do with policing, but a lot to do with local authorities deploying situational community safety strategies, something the police only belatedly began to pick up in the late '90s. To claim it's use in police stations is a reform is equally bogus. CCTV in stations (but still without full coverage in cells) is there because it was imposed by the H.O. after fuck knows how many years of consultation and policy ping-pong with ACPO etc, not because any police service decided off their own bat it'd be a good thing and actually asked for it. If reform has to be imposed, it's not really reform of, it's reform by.
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
The not in cells bit is because of the detainees. Would you want to use the toilet if there was a camera in there? I wouldn't.
I've given plenty of reasons, you appear not to want address any of them ( I imagine out of some infantile leftism).
Trends happen for a reason. There is a clear tend line in police custody deaths. I don't underestimate the racism, or thuggery in the police. But, like all crime it becomes much less likely if is likely to be discovered.
Now, explanations: you have not produced any.
In Brixton Nick there are. I know, I've been in them.
It was a specific policy designed to reduce the amount of abuse by the police.
The eighties and nineties were a succession of scandals involving the police. There were numerous miscarriages of justice, proof of brutality and some very costly civil court cases. They couldn't afford to go on as they were: these cases cost huge amounts of money.
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
There weren't when I was a Lay Visitor. That's obviously changed
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I wouldn't want to, no. It does however mean that cells provide an excellent surveillance-free forum for a bit of detainee-booting, just as they always have.
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
However, if officers walk along the corridor and into a cell they'll be picked up by CCTV and it wouldn't look good. Civilian gaolers or the Custody sergeant get people out of cells or take them food or whatever. If a complaint is made by a detainee and the CCTV is viewed and someone is seen going into the cell they can't explain it away so easily.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Yes, that's what I've just said. reform imposed on the police because they were incapable of restraining themselves, policing themselves and acting like civilised people.
And they still do.
We've got voicemail-hacking scandals in which police are implicated, information-selling scandals adjacent to the voicemail-hacking scandals in which police are also implicated, we've got machinations at the top of the Met to avoid responsibility and cover corrupt behaviour that are every bit as bad as what's going on down at the bottom of the ladder, and we've got the same old brutality. In stations, at outdoor policing situations etc going on now as went on 15, 20, 25 years ago.
The main improvemnt now is better management of information and public relations, that's all.
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
The fact that the the buck initially stops with the custody sergeant is an improvement. It's in his/her interest to make sure nothing bad happens on their watch, which is an improvement I think.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Sorry, had to pause before answering, I was laughing so hard.
Let's just say I know a fair bit about the post-war history of the British police and the British criminal justice system and leave it at that, eh?
Apparently not.Sorry, had to pause before answering, I was laughing so hard.
Let's just say I know a fair bit about the post-war history of the British police and the British criminal justice system and leave it at that, eh?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I agree.
My problem is that my views are informed by my experiences I still remember hearing my (Asian) mate screaming in Streatham police station as his elbow was stamped on (way back in 1980, I should add, before CCTV featured much at all on the UK landscape). I was lucky, I only got a light kicking because I was white and a squaddie, and one of the coppers blurted "don't hurt him too bad, he might bring his mates with him to get revenge". I remember getting crushed by a police horse and batoned by several coppers at Wapping for the crime of showing non-violent solidarity with fellow trade-unionists. I could go on and on, and I don't look for trouble, I do my best to avoid it, pretty much because I look nasty, and that seems to bring out the worst in coppers.
Don't get me wrong, as I said to gavman on another thread, I don't hate coppers. I think ACAB is a counsel of despair. What I hate is the institution they're part of, that covers their arses over and again, and that makes them so cliquey that even the most decent copper will cover for his bent mates rather than protect the people he's supposed to serve.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Elucidate, please (if you can). All you've done throughout your contributions on this thread is burble out your unsupported opinions, and make the occasional insinuation. So come on, pony up!
Wake up. We're not in 1980 when you practised your junior leftism. Smell the coffee, it is 2011.
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
I'm a little sceptical because Emet says he lives locally and has for ages but can't spell local street names
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Yet we still have instances of CCTV from cars, from vans, from interview suites, from custody suites etc going missing, and mostly only when it's advantageous to the police (remember how the footage of Dub went missing when it looked like the copper who was accusing him of assault would get shown up as a liar?).
Now, this may well be the old "noble cause corruption", where someone is looking after a mate and thinks he's doing the right thing, and that his mate shouldn't face the music for a little out-of-character slip-up, but someone still gets fucked over, and it's not generally the copper(s) involved.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Have I claimed that we are in 1980?
Nope, so why mention that we're not, if not just to have a carrier for your juvenile remark about leftism.
By the way, I didn't practice leftism in 1980, I was busy defending the likes of you from the Soviet hordes. Political activism wasn't and isn't allowed to Her Majesty's forces, something a know-all like you should know.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Perhaps he's dyslexic, although misspelled street names wouldn't really fit, would it?
I suspect that with a username like that, he's a copper from an east London station.
That or it's that twat-monkey pdxm (remember him, the copper who claimed to have had a "top-tier" university education, but was about as articulate as a bog-brush?) under a new log-in.
You've given no reason at all for the trend of deaths in police custody, and I have. You were at a demo where you were assaulted. You have my sympathy. I hope you made a formal complaint. Apart from that you seem to have been unaware of domestic current affairs for the last three decades.
What has phone-hacking got to do with deaths in custody?
Repeating your prejudices is no fig-leaf for your ignorance.
Not even the pretence of reason now, I see. I'm not a 'copper' nor have I have ever been one. But it is no insult as far I'm concerned.Perhaps he's dyslexic, although misspelled street names wouldn't really fit, would it?
I suspect that with a username like that, he's a copper from an east London station.
That or it's that twat-monkey pdxm (remember him, the copper who claimed to have had a "top-tier" university education, but was about as articulate as a bog-brush?) under a new log-in.
As it happens, I came to Brixton after serving a sentence in Pentonville Prison. I've lived here for 23 years. I post using only one name, 'Emet', and I've only been a member of urban75 since the 'Clifton Mansions' thread started. I was a squatter in Clifton Mansions.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
No, you haven't given a reason, you've attributed a lessening of deaths in police custody to "reform", in other words you've made a connection between A and B, but you haven't shown it to have validity or utility. There may be a "commonsense" argument for attributing the one to the other, but you haven't even made that. Ever wondered why a reason is called a reason? It's because you have to use and show reasoning.
It's always good to see people using those old devices "seem" and "appear" as filler
Well, we actually weren't just talking about deaths in custody before you decided to grace the thread with your presence, we were talking about corruption (as recently as a handful of posts before your informing us of a report you'd read), and then about brutality after your post
Rather than metaphorically thumbing your nose and muttering "ner-ner-ner", how about elucidating my prejudices and my ignorance, so that I can improve myself?
Or is this just more filler to make you feel better about yourself?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Are you not aware of the difference between speculating on someone's origin and claiming something is true?
As it happens, so what? Is that supposed to give you cred-points, or something?
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
It's the only misspelling I've noticed which is why I'm a tiny bit sceptical. Locals usually get place names right.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I'll admit to having spelled
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
Fair dos, but I don't think you've ever claimed to be a witness to the goings-on on it. You're not even the same postcode I don't think.
