*Brixton Movement for Justice March

[johnwisehammer]

Hatboy: I'm not really sure what your point is - one of the many points of discussion on this thread is exactly what multiculturalism is (its roots and origin, and how the concept has evolved), which in turn asks questions about what culture is. Yes, it's a discussion about words and political concepts at one level.

Culture (like community) is a word that gets chucked about until it loses its meaning and doesn't become helpful any more. If you ask me (which no-one did but then if everybody waited to be asked, this would be a very quiet place), culture is a more all-embracing notion than sexuality and the things associated with that: it's also a lot of fuzzy and imprecise things like religion, diet, rituals on life events, (folk/ collective) history, knowledge and belief systems and anything else you care to shake a sociological shitty stick at that's produced and reproduced by the state, family and society. In my opinion, not least for the precise reason that homosexuality is present across all cultures while markers of gayness differ through them, "gay" or even "UK gay" is not a distinct culture, it's a subculture or some other form of social organisation. It's quite possible to be a multiculturalist and a raving homophobe (though I've never knowingly met anyone who is). You do see why being Roma and being gay are qualitatively different, don't you?

If you don't like that opinion - fine, I'm not self-important enough to believe it makes the slightest difference in the grand scheme of things what I think and what you think about what I think - but to just effectively say "this discussion is shit and I'm not going to participate in it but even if I did, I'd be right" is just childish. If you think the discussion is irrelevant, ignore it - if you think your disagreement/participation is important - then get stuck in by all means - explain what you mean.

Personally, I couldn't give a fuck if a copper is supposed to be an intellectual or not (ooh, shades of Adrian Mole here) - someone who stops his officers beating the crap out of people, enforces the law and doesn't suppress democratic process might be a good start. If The Commander does start ripping on pretty important bits of political policy in Britain like multiculturalism, then it would help if knew what the fuck he was talking about - not least because unlike me (who also doesn't necessarily know what the fuck he's talking about), the way he translates this into his professional attitudes have a big impact on society.

[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: JohnW ]

 

[marko]

Umm...... so we've established that gayness isn't a "culture" in *exactly* the same sense in which Indian-ness is a "culture". So?

I think the parallels between sexual (or musical) sub-cultures and national cultures are actually very striking. It's just that the latter tend to be stronger, and to affect peoples' lives in a greater variety of ways, as you point out.

However! I think this not a difference of kind, but only a difference of degree. The sheer volume of shared ideas and references you get from belonging to a national group may be greater than the volume associated with belonging to a sexual group... but a 2nd generation Indian will have less Indian ideas/references than his parents, and one who is 2nd generation but with only one Indian parent even less. So the degree to which this person participates in "Indian culture" may be less than a scene queen's participation in "gay culture". I don't see a valid distinction between the two.

 

[johnwisehammer]

Fair enough, nothing wrong with that. It's interesting to hear you explain your opinion and your opinion of mine.

 

[TinyCrendon]

.

 

[hatboy]

There aren't any! Well alright, a handful I suspect.

I didn't say, or effectively say "this discussion is shit and I'm not going to participate in it but even if I did, I'd be right".

I just thought I'd spotted this discussion disappearing up it's own, that's all. Guess I'm not in a "let's have a heated debate" mood today.



[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: hatboy ]

 

[TinyCrendon]

.

 

[RubyToogood]

Bumped for interest- the Commander's anarchism comment is on page three. If you look at it in context he was simply replying to ginger...

Shall I put the music on, Adam?

 

[Paul]

Commander Paddick the policeman, the Buddhist......

Urban cool

We need more police officers like Paddick

Leader
Thursday February 21, 2002
The Guardian

Commander Brian Paddick, the policeman in charge of a part of inner-city
London, is one of the rarest figures of the modern day. Prepared to engage
in frank and liberal conversation with the people he serves, Commander
Paddick appears an offbeat and welcome voice in public life. But his latest
outburst of honesty is unlikely to be well received by superiors in the
Metropolitan police. It is not certain how much of the Met logs on to
www.urban75.com, a Brixton-edited website favoured by anarchist and
anti-capitalists, but many will be now pointing their browsers there.

Here they will find "Brian: The Commander" offering himself for a chat on
the site's bulletin boards. Some of it is philosophical musing, which
surprisingly for a policeman has Commander Paddick attracted to anarchism
and the ideal that "the innate goodness of the individual... is corrupted by
society". Some of it is telling the world about the way it is. "I have some
of the bravest, fearless, unarmed cops who care enough to tackle
gun-carrying drug dealers... and still go back for more." Some of it is
remarkably personal, given that Commander Paddick is the first openly gay
commander in the Met. "Someone has found out which gay club I go to and is
trying to cause some SERIOUS shit for me."

All of it is compulsive reading. Perhaps other officers should face public
cross-examination on the web. Rather than being cheered, there are calls for
Commander Paddick to be sacked from the right-wing press, former officers
and the Metropolitan Police Federation. But the attack from these canteen
culturalists, motivated in part by a barely disguised loathing of a
successful progressive policeman, should be shrugged off. Commander Paddick
is an asset in a Met, where Londoners look and rarely see themselves.
Brixton, where drugs and guns are all too visible, needs someone like
Commander Paddick who is prepared to take the fight to the criminals. His
forward-thinking has put him ahead of the curve. Before the Home Office
planned to decriminalise dope, Commander Paddick experimented with cautions
rather than arrests for people caught with small amounts of cannabis in
south London so police could spend more time tackling the society-sapping
menace of cocaine. A success, the scheme has saved 2,500 police hours, and
arrests for harder drugs rose by 19%. As urban75 put it: Respect To The
Commander.

 

[canadian_punx]

I'm disgusted that something like this could happen!
Why is it that the police seem so lost about what going on, and act violently as a result of their fear? Where's the compassion you should be able to expect in people who are meant to SERVE the people, not beat them. Makes you believe that there can be no such thing as order.
If you can't trust the people who are meant to protect you, then who can you trust? Who do you turn to when you're in need?

 

[Paul]

"Why is it that the police seem so lost about whats going on, and act violently as a result of their fear?".
Police officers are human beings too, they like anyone take influences from society, a little more feel the fear and do it anyway would help. This is of course difficult to action when the likes of the American Government drive that fear train to attain control. When breakdown in society occurs its relevance affects us all. "Makes you believe that there can be no such thing as order", this chaos period is leading us to order or extinction, either way its getting sorted.

 

[steve5312]

Well well well. This forum is particularly quiet, considering all the press coverage that's been going on recently.

Just out of interest, why was everyone so interested in making sure Brian Paddick was a bona fide police officer? He made it clear that he was here as an individual, not a policeman, and so his occupation shouldn't really be of relevance. Believe it or not, coppers can form opinions of their own - they don't all blindly follow their masters.

If Brian still reads this thread and wishes to contribute further, I'd be interested to see what he's got to say about the past week's events in the media. Personally I found it interesting and indicative of the nature of today's tabloid press that many of the papers concentrated solely on his sexuality and not the views he expressed.

Perhaps Adam can help me understand that. Why do papers think the public really care if the guy was gay? It's entirely irrelevant, and about as uninteresting as today's News of the World front page "exclusive" about some Cold Feet actor cheating on his wife. Who cares????

It would've been nice if last week's events have made the Met sit up and realise that Brian's comments have received huge support from the general public, "anarchists" or otherwise. Sadly, due to the hype about his sexuality, it looks like he is instead going to be viewed as an embarassment rather than a free-thinker.

 

[JohnnyR]

Anarchy, anarchy!
You lot just hate the police, rules and regulations.
Well, let's do away with them and get back to basics.
No rules, laws, just take it all as it comes? Hey?
Will this work? Methinks not. Hasn't History taught us any lessons? Rules etc were being formulated in the IRON age!!!!
In my University days I was a bit of an anarchist...going on the anti this and anti that protest. I shook my head with Rotten! Met him as well! Cool chap.
When you grow up a bit you realise that this can NEVER work.
How can it? Someone tell me PULeeeeeeeeese.
When you get a bit older like me (sadly) you still want a bit of fun but crap things like mortgages, jobs, kids, etc, get in the way.
Fact of life for many like me, educated and very middle class. So what, it matters not.
Do you know all I want? Safety, SAFETY in the streets and a frigging good justice system. I want justice....For those evil bastards who have no regard for life. What pisses me off is that those poor idiots who tried to rob that millenium diamond got longer than the Bulger Killers who are now walking free. That is a fucking disgrace.
Brian Paddick is entitled to his views. Gay or not, it matters not.
Get the scum off the streets, then we can go back to *no rules/law* and all be happy and safe.

Come on, argue with me

PS I still go on marches---------anti-hunting and anti fur these days.

 

[William of Walworth]

Gotta go!

Ahem, "Interesting" ... no time ... welcome JR but I think a little debate will son be happening with you ...

 

[hatboy]

Johhny R - there's quite a variety of people and opinion here as it goes. I'm not "you lot", I'm just me. The only argument I'd have with you above is that I don't really like calling people scum. Human beings are such complex creatures and I'd rather dislike certain behavior than condemn the person.

Anyway welcome, but don't assume you've got us all sussed when you've just arrived.

 

[JohnnyR]

Didn't just arrive

Actually, arrived in this life 30 years ago.
That gives me a bit of life experience!

Come on you annies, argue with me.

As a philosopher, I will argue the boots off you all, probably not get anywhere.
We can but try!
Hey, isn't freedom to say what one wants, one of the supposedly cool things of ANARCHY!
Actually, I hate others more..fucking idiot dumb footballers who earn obscene amounts when others are grasping to get food. The likes of the Stupid beckhams should be shot in cold blood
I do have a social conscience and hate many things in this world.
I want Justice and fairness. Not these Twats who do nothing for the good of society, yet earn mega bucks.
Something ain't right in this society.......

 

[soulctrla]

The commander maybe who he says he is

Lets just see ...

I just looked at my yahoo home page and totally out of curiosity I followed a link about a police commander getting his wrists slapped for making comments to www.urban75.com forums

and it quotes the stuff he said about being fascinated by anarchy.

Now... Id look at this and see what you think guys..

I have just looked for the link but I cant find it.. I was amazed to see this site on yahoo home page thats why I m here

I do not agree with all that anarchists do.. but I dont agree with the die hard capitalist regime either...

We just need to get along.. and stop breaking each others shit

 

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by JohnnyR
Anarchy, anarchy!
You lot just hate the police, rules and regulations.
Well, let's do away with them and get back to basics.
No rules, laws, just take it all as it comes? Hey?


Come on, argue with me

Johnny as a "philospopher " I'm sure you understand that it is imporatant to define the terms that you wish to "argue" (debate surely?) about. If you are going to assume that the media portrays anarchy (or anything else) accurately it's going to be a very limiting debate. Understand what anarchists mean by the term anarchy and anarchismJohnny, and it might be worth having a debate with you!



Try reading these FAQs for starters!

 

[Saxon Rillet]

Cmndr Paddick

I am new to all this and learnt of the website because I read about Brian Paddick in the Press.
Paddick's comments has been wholly misunderstood by many people.
When he spoke of anarchy, he was not talking about some lawless society in which everyone rampages around doing whatever they want.
Anarchy is a system in which laws exist, just not in name or even in the heads of men.
It supposes that all men have become rational and as such do not need to commit crimes - to steal, harm or destroy one another or to have a set of rules to guide their behaviour - where everyone lives in perfect harmony in a society in which laws have ceased to exist in name because there is no use for them.
In a true anarchist state, laws have withered away; rational human beings have no need to be governed in this way.
That is what Paddick meant when he spoke of innate goodness in humans: The corollary of discovering that goodness is the death of laws.
He was talking about a utopian society free of crime.
I do not, however, agree that an anarchist state is either possible or desirable.
And I find it remarkable that Paddick, a senior cop in south London who must frequently be exposed to the worst in people, can hold that an anarchist state could ever be achieved.
As a footnote, I wholly disagree with a message further up the page that we need more cops like Paddick; we need fewer social and outreach workers masquerading as police officers.

 

[LDR]

Saxon Rillet -

As a footnote, I wholly disagree with a message further up the page that we need more cops like Paddick; we need fewer social and outreach workers masquerading as police officers.

Why do you think this? I would have thought as the police are there to protect communities that more socially aware they are the better.

 

[Palestinian]

Guns and the Police

2 innocent black americans killed in the past 3 years in New York. Both were unarmed and both shot dead. The latter one was shot 17 times. This is the problem with guns.
These are by no means the only deaths but are relevant as they happened under Rudolph Guiliani's tenancy of the Mayoral office. Lest we not forget the brutal rape of a Haitian immigrant by some New York cops.
Just as guns are bad in the hands of criminals, guns and the power they bring can be as bad in the hands of the Police.

 

[marshstarman]

I'm a bit late on this one, but after seeing all the uproar over our human police friend in the press, I have to salute you Brian. I always thought that all positions of authority in our country were taken up by pompous prats. But, from what i've read of your posts, it's quite clear that freedom of speech seems to be taboo from the press side of things. Good stuff Commander Paddick.



After reading the Guardian today regarding re-classing pot, something I noticed, which never occured to me before.. Having it as class B is in fact a potentially dangerous, as this 'encourages' youngsters to compare it to other class B's like speed. I was discussing it with a colleague at work, and he told me of a story of when he was at school, where two of his classmates had smoked a bit of pot when at school. Well, a few days or weeks later, the headteacher warned of the dangers of drugs in assembly where they were going on about how dangerous dope is, and how dangerous smack is. Well, they tried and enjoyed ganja, and after assembly, they became smack addicts. My mate says they are still mugging and burgling for their habit to this day.

But we've got to be careful with what is done with pot though, because there is no escaping the fact that it can turn you into a sub-human lazy arse twat. Which most of our teenagers are already.

 

[Another Number]

Colin the Copper

Colin,

If you are a Police Officer you are only adding to peoples concern that Policew Officers are incompetent thugs!

I doubt you are a Police Officer, certainly your demeanor should be of concern, hardly conduct suited to a Keeper of The Queens Peace!.

If you are a Police Officer and this is your normal behaviour you take a fair shame of the blame for the Police Service having a poor reputation. (Note Service, NOT Force !)

How many times do people have contact with a Police Officer under normal, everyday circumstances? - Rarely, if ever.

How many times do people have contact with Police under any other circumstance? - Again, probably not often, in the main the majority will have little if any contact throughout their lives. This deprives ability to really hold a personal and valid opinion of the Police Service and it's condition. What opinions have been made are from those experiences of others. Whoever is telling the story is almost certainly one of two things, either a criminal, no matter how slight the crime (ie speeding), or a victim. Maybe you view the speeding person the Victim. Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that Police Officers are always onto a loser before they get to speak out. Criminals always dislike Police to some extent. Victims, nine times out of ten feel the Police could of and should have done more for there complaint.

Something here was missed by Sir Patrick Sheehy when he made his, mostly welcomed, recomendations some years ago.

Colin, I will prove that I was once a Plodder!

I CAN TELL WHEN YOU ARE TALKING SHITE!!

IT'S EVERYTIME YOUR FINGERS HIT THE KEYBOARD!!

 

[calvinball]

That copper in the news

Was amazed to see the urban 75 website on sky news today when i went round to my parent's house for sunday dinner, as I was just browsing the site the other day. Caught a little bit of the news, about Brian Paddick and how he had dared to talk to anarchists. I've browsed the archived messages and can't see what the fuss was about on the news. Brian, don't be disscouraged by those b'stards; remember, they're covering up genocide, so don't feel too bad about the sh't they're giving you. It means you're doing something right (either that, or they're trying to distract us from more important stuff like the babies frying to death in Afghanistan or Iraq).

Anyway, I think its brilliant that a copper is engaging in dialogue with anarchist types, instead of bashing them over the head with a truncheon, though I can't say I wouldn't be wary seeing as the police up here went out of their way to get me a criminal record for using CHALK to write an antiwar slogan.

Some sort of dialogue with the police here up north would be brilliant, although they're not the easiest lot to approach. Any tips on how that might be done would be appreciated, Brian.

take care,

Ronan

 

[zenpostman]

WHAT did we really expect?? I have followed the developing story about Commander Brian Paddick. With his forward-looking ideas about the law regarding cannabis, the refreshingly open-minded attitude he has in his role as a public servant and his openness about his sexuality, it was no surprise that the right wing vultures in the press and certain elements in and out of the police establishment wanted him nobbled!!

You could see this coming a mile away. A pity. Whatever you may feel about the police, he genuinely seems to be trying to do his best for the public he serves within the constraints of his profession. He was a maverick and a free-thinker who was doomed the moment he sought to try to speak the truth

 

[meercat]

Brian

I just want to say that we have just seen the authorities and the Press doing what they always do. Taking Brian's reasonable comments and twisting them. It is a shame that it is impossible to have a discussion without the Mail and Sun etc getting their nickers in a twist. Brian P deserves our support and thanks for trying to listen to and engage with the people he serves. Perhaps the Labour government can take a leaf out of his book. I doubt it. Brian if you read this. Thanks for the posts.

 

[freethepeeps]

Found this on Indymedia

On the evening of the 21/12/01, a small rally was held outside Brixton Town Hall in defence of Ales Owolade, who spoke out denouncing the police murder of Dereck Bennet, and was as a consequence sacked from his job at Lambeth Council.
After a lively rally led by young people, the group marched to the site of Dereck Bennet's murder.
The march was peaceful with the marchers shouting out for all the community to hear,
"Who killed Dereck Bennet,
the Police killed Dereck Bennet!,
How did they kill him?
They shot him in the back!
How many bullets?
Six bullets!
Who are the criminals?
The police!
Who are the murderers?
The police!"
Outside the house where Dereck Bennet was shot dead, his friends and family spoke about the need to fight for justice and for a communtity safe from Police violance and harrassment.
The group then attempted to march to protest outside Brixton Police Station.
As the demonstraters reached the road leading out of the estate, around 60 Police in full riot gear blocked the street.
They threw one demonstrater to the ground where she screamed in pain.
To avoid further confrontation with the police, the group ran back through the estate and managed to reach Brixton road.
The police armed with shields and batons pursued in 7 vans.
They attacked the demonstration and seized the brother of Dereck Bennet, whose sister continued to cling to her brother begging the police not to take another of her family.
Demonstraters tried to reason with the Police but were told to piss off!
Finally the police released the captive and he left shaking with his sister.
Somebody not so fortunate was a twenty year old asian man who was walking at the back of the demonstration.
7 Policemen threw him to the ground, two knelt on his ankles, two officers knelt on the backs of his knees and two more knelt on his elbows, while for further restraint another officer forced his face to the ground.
The crowd demanded to know why he was being arrested so forcibly, but were once again told to piss of by the Police.
A rally of twenty five, mainly young people continued to demonstrate outside Brixton Regestry office near the Police station.
Despite the fact that no violence had occurred other then brutal arrests, this small group bearing a hand made banner demanding freedom from police harrassment, were encircled by seventy cops in full riot gear with their shields and batons raised.
After sometime the riot police forced the group out of Brixton down towards Oval.
The Police response was harrasmemnt taken to extremes.
This community is being denied Justice and the freedom the feel safe.

 

[editor]

FTP: it's a shame you weren't at the meeting last night. If you had, you might have learnt how Paddick's 'open and transparent' investigation towards police deaths has gained the admiration and trust of many black community leaders.

And while it's important that people be made aware of events from last year, some of us are trying to move forward. That's why so many people who live in Lambeth are offering support to Paddick because he's seen as the first progressive cop who's been seen to make a difference. He stopped the use of Section 60. Stopped arbitary stop and searches. Spoke directly to a wide range of community groups and used innovatory means to establish dialogues with those who might view the police with deep suspicion.

Seeing as you've made your dislike of Paddick and his policies clear, what real-world, achievable solutions have you got for Brixton community policing?

No rhetoric, please, just pragmatic achievable solutions that will earn the same unprecendented support from a community previously reknowned for its bad relations with the police.

I'm listening...

 

[freethepeeps]

Ed

We've been here.

You can lock up as many dealers as you like, there will still be a trade in drugs. I have to say that Coldharbour Lane has never stopped being a dangerous place, as far I am concerned.

As for "moving on", I think that the article is very relevant to the thread, no?

 

[editor]

We have indeed been there.

And I'm still waiting for you to offer something other than the negative, destructive and backward looking.

Paddick is the first officer I've ever known in Brixton who seems interested in listening to the community and directing policies and (scant) resources accordingly. His positive approach contrasts with people like you who seem to have nothing to offer but criticism.

Coldharbour Lane has never stopped being a dangerous place, as far I am concerned

Unlike you, I live on Coldharbour Lane and walk up and down it every day, so perhaps you're not the best person to comment on its supposed 'dangers'....

 

[TopCat]