*Brixton Movement for Justice March

[editor]

Top Cat: why do you keep dishonestly spouting the same misinterpretation of events?

"I think the Paddick worship has gone too far when you have the rightly indignent mother of a man recently killed by police shouted down as she (rightly in my opinion ) heckled Mr Paddick."

For absolutely the last time: she was not shouted down because of who she was, but she was shouted down (now read carefully) because she was disrupting the meeting by shouting loudly and incoherently and no one knew who she was.

When her identity was established she was given the mic at the end and listened to in absolute silence (necessary after the mic unfortunately conked out). She was also invited to a further meeting where her opinions could be listened to in more detail.

So, no malicious 'shouting down' then, so why do you keep suggesting that was the case? (Were you at the meeting, btw?)

And my supposed 'sneering tone towards anarcho's' is the result of sheer exasperation at all the negativity. I live here. I want things to get better and believe they can with a little give and take.

Empty, unachievable rhetoric and blanket condemnation of anything that doesn't fit the ideological agenda isn't going to make the streets any safer, get rid of the crack dealers or make the police any more accountable towards its citizens.

There's only so many times you can listen to people who are full of words, but not so good on real world solutions to help people now, not in some rose-tinted, Nirvana.

Funnily enough, you might find that many of our ultimate hopes for society are quite similar, but right now the people of Brixton want action to clean up the streets, not more words.

 

[freethepeeps]

but right now the people of Brixton want action to clean up the streets,

That sounds well sinister!

 

[editor]

What's 'sinister' about the clearly stated aims of trying to get the smack and crack dealers off the streets?

Or, as Paddick put it, "screw the dealers, help the addicts"

 

[boomclick]

not that sinister if you think about it.

for 'clean up' read 'get rid of gun-toting dealers and muggers'

any objections to removing either from the street of brixton?

 

[freethepeeps]

Who's controlling the broom?

Yup, then we could "remove" graffitists, jaywalkers, protestors, drunks, shoplifters, faredodgers, soapdodgers, heathens, hippies and any other group that we decide we don't like! Like the Sun editorial said:

Locking up violent and unsavoury characters, and cracking down on even the most trivial offences, will make people feel safe again.

Crime can be smashed with an iron fist. That’s the only way.

I got this in an email from a community group in Brixton, yesterday:

In the Labour manifesto for the elections (we crashed their launch yesterday), their first point of what they will do is this: "And we're proposing to overhaul the youth services and establish a New York-style Hit Squad to target everyone you dont want to live next door to." -They go further to explain who will be targetted: aggressive beggars, graffitti, fly posterers, people who ride their bikes on the pavement, people who spit, ticket touts, badly behaved youth ....... The council and the police are together a team for the repression oppression of this burough. Labour is the party of complete support for the police, more CCTV, more Stop and search, more tagging, Hit Squads!!?!? It is NOT coincedence, the two are not separate issues.

Hmmmm, much easier to criminalise peeps than to address the underlying problems.

Now, I don’t know about you, but the stuff from the Labour manifesto makes me a teensy, weensy bit concerned.

Once you start down the road of “cleaning” streets, you find that there’s so many peeps making them untidy – and then hey, someone decides it’s you that’s a bit untidy!

 

[editor]

FTP: Just so you know: your entertaining rant about "graffitists, jaywalkers, protestors, drunks, shoplifters, faredodgers, soapdodgers, heathens, hippies" hasn't even the slightest resemblence to the meaning of my original remark.

Oh, and 'jaywalking' isn't an offence here.

But to get back on topic: I'd like the violent crack dealers and smack dealers off my streets and the addicts offered treatment.

Don't you?

 

[freethepeeps]

I would like to see the problem dealt with yes. But I am not so sure that a "street cleaning campaign" is going to achieve very much. Let's not forget the USA's War against Drugs, where mucho resources were sunk into attempts to stop the traffic in drugs, and it failed miserably. The problems is much wider than being purely a Brixton issue, no?

If you are happy to see dealers locked up, so be it. They will be replaced. Then you can lock their replacements up. And their replacements, and then their replacements, and so on. Okay, now the jails are filled to bursting points, it's easy innit, more jails and more dealers locked up. Of course all the stop-and-search may be a tad bad for community relations, but what the hell, these people have to be dealt with.

I don't feel happy with the prospect of that at all. Why is there a drug trade in Brixton? Why are people drawn to dealing? Why are people getting hooked on the shit? Those seem to me to be the questions that need asking. Remember that old mantra:

TOUGH ON CRIME
TOUGH ON THE CAUSES OF CRIME!

Seems like the second bit just got forgotten along the way, and now we are looking at a society that is beginning to think that it needs zero-tolerance policing in order to be safe. AND ZERO TOLERANCE POLICING IS BAD FOR ALL OF US!

My little rant about hippies, heathens and other misfits is on topic, once you sanction a line that it is ok to "clean the streets", to take tough measures to make the streets safe, you set the ball rolling. And I don't believe that it will stop at the dealers.

The difference between what you are agreeing to, and what the Lambeth Labour manifesto is calling for, is not that big, it's a matter of degree, they are part of the same continuum.

Which is why I have nothing to offer in terms of suggesting how Brixton can be effectively policed. I see that there is a danger that the black community is attacked, that advances made in community relations are lost, that the idea of "street cleaning" is used against an increasingly wider part of the community, and that eventually we are at risk from it as well.

Short term coercive action may stem the tide temporarily, but it is wider long term societal change that is needed to make society better to live in.

Dealers are "scum" in the eyes of many. They are also sons, fathers, husbands, neighbours, . We can dehumanise them, demonise them and destroy them. We do so at our own cost. Every time.

 

[editor]

Which is why I have nothing to offer in terms of suggesting how Brixton can be effectively policed

In that case, why condemn someone who is clearly battling to work within the considerable constraints of the system to make things quantifiably better for the community?

A figure of 83% support for police policies would have been absolutely unheard of only a few years ago, and that support is coming from a very borad section of the community, with Paddick earning praise for his open and accountable style.

He's made sure that arbitary stop and search now is no longer the easy option for racist cops, he lowered the antagonism by getting rid of sniffer dogs at the station and has won praise from black community leaders for his extreme openness during the investigations into the two black deaths in custody.

As you rightly say, the problems are far, far bigger than just getting rid of the odd crack dealer, but it seeing as the Big Issues aren't exactly topping the political agenda these days, why can't you at least acknowledge that Paddick has made a positive diference to the ordinary people on the streets of Lambeth?

It seems your 'solution' is just to give up completely, condemn anyone who doesn't match your set of personal philosophies and offer the community nothing apart from some vague and distant hope of the world changing overnight?

Right now Brixton needs solutions, safer streets, help for the addicts and a more accountable police force who listens to needs and concerns of the community. As a long term resident, I believe progress is slowly being made in those fields.

Philosophy can come later.

 

[hatboy]

Freethepeeps - I don't believe your quotes from the Lambeth Labour manifesto are genuine I'm afraid. If that is correct then they are going too far. Zero tolerance is not what I want, nor do many people here. And, nor does Brian Paddick, crucially. You talk about not demonising people - I agree. Surely a step in the right direction is not to criminalise cannabis users. I'm sure we both know people with very minor cannabis related convictions who have found this an obstacle to employment. Brian Paddick does not condone the arrest of cannabis users. He has practical ideas for tackling gun-crime, crime associated with hard drugs and street robbery. He also wants to help addicts.

More than this, I am attracted to support him because he seems like an honest, likeable man. And a man with a sense of humour and a knowledge of what it is like to be different and in a minority. Just what Brixton needs IMO.

You may have seen how me and Mikee and Offshore were portrayed in the Standard article. I am hardly your conventional law-abiding model citizen although I have strong moral values on a humane level. You're not talking to "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" here, with either me or Mike.

I think you need to realise that the current position in Brixton requires compromise. Perhaps in the future the world will move nearer to your ideal. For now compromise will do me.

 

[Caspar Hauser]

Some thoughts from an outsider

Sorry guys, but just some thoughts from an outsider.
I agree with you FTP, I don’t like the slogan of “cleaning the streets” either. And I think you are absolute right about that we should not start to dehumanise people.
But I think you also have to accept that for example the Europaen countries with the highest social inclusion (Norway, Finland, Austria) all have a form of “zero tolerance” politics. Not in the New York way, of course.
Finland and Austria for example have the lowest prison population in Europe. But if in Helsinki or Vienna a window is broken it will be replaced immediately. If there is an abandoned car it will be disposed before someone can burne it. If there are to many graffitis the councils will overpaint it...
If you let that kind of things happen unchecked the whole situation will turn ugly. Of course it have to be backed with huge investments in social programmes for drug addicts, homeless people, especially children in povertry...
After, I think, 18 years of Tory desaster and 5 years of New Labour, who have a lot of work to do.

Sorry for my English, but even after 8 years as a main subject in school it is still difficult to express myself properly.

 

[ats]

<I am attracted to support him because he seems like an honest, likeable man. And a man with a sense of humour and a knowledge of what it is like to be different and in a minority. Just what Brixton needs IMO.>

He's also a very humane man. I was once called in as a lay visitor to act as observer when the news had to be broken to a detainee that, after he had been arrested, his father had had a heart attack.

He took the task himself - some people would have delegated to avoid an emotionally difficult situation - and handled it with enormous sensitivity. I was tremendously impressed.

So don't let anyone say he's just a careerist. He's the genuine article.

 

[The Black Hand]

To reply to Another Number who said "It will not matter that those reporting were Protesting, the Officer taking the report must take the matter seriously, even if the Officers suspicion might be that the complaint is false. There would then be a set Procedure for that Officer to follow, but it would not be to simply throw the report in the bin!"

I admire your belief in the ability of the police to follow the law and procedure but from experience i know they don't. One example i have is the cop in charge of complaints at Lincolnshire police TELLING people NOT to complain... [long story... from two years ago]

I think like Top cat says "I can't see how to reconcile the two positions either, Padiick is either a possible force for reform in a basically ok police force or he is a largely irrelevent distraction in the search for a better society." however, i think that those who think reform is possible should try that and those who don't follow another path. AS for Steve the Boss and his nonsense; society as it is produces conflict which you are happy to uphold, it is you who are extreme in that you believe things are basically OK as it is... and your fantisys about what 'extremists' are meant to think are mere delusions... you should grow up a bit and widen your horizens... ALL political positions have validity, just because some appear to be dominant now doesn't mean it will always be like that...

Robert Reiner an eminent criminologist says we witness today "a return to a pre-democratic view that regarded whole classes of society as effectively outlaws. In this view the poor are regarded as the flotsam and jetsum of society - presented as somehow threatening. What this kind of language and labelling are doing is reversing 150 years of movement since the industrial revolution towards a more inclusive society in which everyone belongs, has equal citizenship and is guarenteed a minimum of rights. Now we are returning to the ideas of the undeserving poor, of the 'dangerous classes' who, through their poverty, will always be prone to crime" (1996) Anything that reinforces this view IS not progressive and that INCLUDES policing practice however much an 'improvement' on present... that is not to say that all policing innovations necessarily lead to this although precedent would suggest it does.

FTP is right to say that the dealing will go on whatever is done, the causes of 'crime' cannot be stopped by localised police practice. As i've said before police are like a fire brigade (at best) 'rushing to the scene of crime to extinguish it'. BUT it's a bit late isn't it??... If you think a nicer police force will improve community relations this is a bit like a self fulfilling prophecy, and its also liberal ethos... generally the harsh world of reality quickly gives more examples about what the police are really like though [December Police attack on the demo]

As for the call for positive solutions, the questions basically revolves around how you see the police in the fabric of society. If you see them as an oppressive institutionally racist organisation, with conservative personalitys enforcing racist and class law then clearly they can't help much. If on the other hand you think we maybe able to have an influence on them if we're nice and positive enough then you think the opposite. So basically we have the police are negative so we must look for real solutions elsewhere, and the police could be positive although we know they've been bad... I don't think this can go much further...

 

[editor]

Just in case there's any continuing confusion about my (on reflection, clumsy) 'cleaning up the streets of Brixton' phrase, I'll repeat myself once again: I was referring to Paddick's stated policy of getting rid of the violent crack and smack dealers and taking care of the addicts - and most definitely *not* advocating some kind of ghastly 'zero tolerance' bullshit.

I assumed that others would understand the context of this statement, bearing in mind the other threads on this board and my long political history, but I guess some have (strangely) decided to interpret it as some kind of blanket endorsement for zero tolerance. But it's not. OK?

But I'm still 'all ears' when it comes to hearing about alternative, real-world, achievable, community-backed alternatives to Paddick's iniatitives.

Anyone got any?

 

[ats]

Originally posted by The Black Hand
If you think a nicer police force will improve community relations ... If on the other hand you think we maybe able to have an influence on them if we're nice

Putting down what's being discussed as 'being nice' is to really misrepresent what's being talked about.

The issue is about making the police accountable to the community. Lambeth has gone further in that direction than anywhere else in the country. We were the first place to have a Community Police Consultative Group and a Lay Visitors scheme. Both of these arose from the Scarman Report on the 1981 disturbances, but have been made to wortk by the members of this community.

Previous senior cops in Brixton have recognised that they have to work with this demand from the community for the police to be answerable, but reluctantly. Paddick has approached the community with a genuine desire to listen, givng us the oportunity to demonstrate that such a relationship is workable and produces a better, safer community.

You may not think police accountability is a workable idea. But you should argue your case, not just sneer.

As for 'the harsh world of reality', claiming that only you know about reality, with the implication that those who disagree with you are impractical fools, is a classic tactic much used by right wing politicians to discuss issues they couldn't actually defend.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

great post ats.

 

[The Black Hand]

The police have failed the community for far too long

I'm afraid it wasn't a great post MRs Magpie...
Overall it was 'nice', pointing out the great strides possible... BUT what has been acheived? Has your strategy worked in 20 years? On what level? Do policemen still get away with killing members of Brixtons community? Do they still attack demonstrations in Brixton? Anybody with serious knowledge of criminology knows that police statistics are so flawed that you can't take them seriously, far better to try the British crime survey but even there there are serious problems... I really haven't seen any serious analysis but rather what 'people think is happening'...

i never said that only i knew reality, i pointed out that history frequently throws police actions [the 'harsh world of reality' does exist and always throws up instances that doesn't fit the liberal model] up which clearly show they have no regard for what little accountability there is... that is not say that i don't think you are right to try police reform which i also said in that post... i was pointing out that there is validity in trying to reform them and looking for solutions outside the 'bourgois' 'democratic' 'structure'...
[for ultimately that is what it is]

ATS said "You may not think police accountability is a workable idea. But you should argue your case, not just sneer." i've argued around this issue on other threads and this one, and i wasn't sneering (that's in your mind) You can't seperate law from the police in some sort of neat manner... trying to get them accountable as they enforce unjust laws with prejudicial opinions is often seen as a non-starter by many...

You may think that it's worth trying and as i said good luck but there are other ways and to pretend there are none or you don't know what they are suggests you should do the research... there are plenty of sources already out there, and as i've suggested to people thinking of joining the police you should do a MA or PHD in Criminology first as they often have a great deal of scope for radical analysis of all descriptions and examples from historical practice around the world of alternatives to police and crime as 'we currently understand it'.... The abolitionist school of thought comes to mind very easily...

 

[Brian]

OK enough already. NO, the police in Brixton do NOT routinely attack protestors - for goodness sake (I have to say 'goodness' now I'm afraid) this is where I came in. We may have held up protestors who wanted to go elsewhere on a march but we did not attack them. Genuine protestors are welcome in Brixton. Many people in Brixton protest by their very existence, the way they live, the way they conduct themselves. That is one of the things that makes Brixton such a wonderful place.

Yes, there have been some cases where people have died 'at the hands of the police'. Those that have happened whilst I was in charge are still being investigated and I cannot comment on them for legal reasons (but you can, which makes it all a bit one-sided.) Some that have happened in the past I am still very concerned about. (No, I am not going to get drawn into what I mean by that at the moment.)

Not everyone in the police thinks like me, but I am not a 'lone voice in the wilderness'. You would be surprised at the level of support for my stance.

Let's get sensible around all of this. There are good cops and bad cops, good people and bad people, political activists and criminals (those seeking to unjustifiably damage others). Sheep on the left, goats on the right please. Not sure which is which? Neither am I. Some really positive changes - definitely. A long way to go - absolutely. Going in the right direction or going backwards - no argument there, is there?

 

[Mrs Magpie]

 

[viperman]

In my view....

for those of you interested (not many I guess) Paddick will be back in about 2 months time. He has played the sexuality case well and just like the race card it means you can get away with doing whatever the fuck you want be it breaking the law, useless at your job whatever!!!!
It is plainly obvious that there are enough people who would wish there is no police whatsoever in Brixton, I second that. I think they should just keep Paddick there to bring in new laws that would satisfy him and the other residents. Why should a policeman who is only doing what he is being paid to do take abuse from scum, they are not paid half enough to take any abuse. Now that Paddick has relaxed the drug laws in Brixton without going through the normal passage for laws, what next, i reckon next on his agenda will be paedophiles and letting them into the area to live amongst the druggies to share life experiences and re-introduce them into society from the bottom up. What amazes me, is that the law abiding people on this board do not go out and patrol the streets and make citizen arrests in Coldharbour lane or go to the tube station and move on the illegals that should not be there. Hope the protests go well today Ban the bomb, stop the war etc etc Peace to all

 

[hatboy]

You just don't get it do you Viperman. People back Brian because he seems honest - that is the reason. And if in concentrating skant resources on catching people who shoot others dead rather than criminalising people with a little bit of hash on them then that seems eninently sensible to me.

Pleased to see you acknowledge you and you sort have lost btw. When are you leaving the country?

 

[wildwildlifer]

Originally posted by hatboy
When are you leaving the country? [/B]

"She's" promised to leave for the U.S. in July, but the track record as a proven liar on these boards means that this promise should be taken with the largest pinch of salt possible.
BTW, Viperman's claim to have worked for the R.U.C should be of tremendous interest to the Law Enforcement community over there, as we know its a hotbed of 'Loyalist' sympathy(!).

 

[viperman]

Dear WILD one

Stupidity is one thing, stupidity without the ability to learn is another. As in my previous replies to you, the RUC proved over 30 years of terrorism that they were not bigoted towards one side or another, the figures prove themselves altho' contributing to these boards it is obvious that certain figures are not always listened to. Over 85% of all loyalist terrorists were arrested. Compare that to only 5% of republican crimes in certain areas like Tyrone where the terrorists had the support of the local catholic community. They had the support of the lawabiding communities on both sides. Patten wanted a cushy little job in europe and tried to do Blairs dirty work by getting rid of them. They lost over 300 men and women in 30 years, they in turn were only involved in 53 justifiable shootings. Not bad given that there was a war going on

 

[DailyMailReader]

In my view....

Originally posted by viperman
i reckon next on his agenda will be paedophiles and letting them into the area to live amongst the druggies to share life experiences and re-introduce them into society from the bottom up.

I'm sure I read somewhere that Lambeth already has the greatest concentration of paedophiles living within the borough that anywhere else in the whole country.
And Brixton police station has a dedicated group of officers whose only job is to keep track and visit these offenders.

Can you comment Brian ?

 

[editor]

DMR: I'm sure I read somewhere...

Where exactly? Source? Proof? Why should you expect anyone to answer your vague, unsubstantiated claims from (conveniently) unknown sources?

Viperman: I'm getting fed up with asking you this, but unless you can substantiate your claim: "bit of an oxymoron. Hard working and honest people of Brixton" I'm afraid you're going to banned.

Such stereotypying comments are clearly both insulting and disruptive (with a suggestion of racism), and as such fall foul of this board's posting rules.

So it's time to show up or shut up...

 

[viperman]

Dear Derek ( senior member )

ignorance is bliss, well you must be the most blissful person around or just thick or stupid.
Assuming you are not from Northern Ireland, here are a few of the facts to set you straight
Whilst the RUC is only 12% catholic, this is not the fault of the police, should a catholic try to join the following will happen
a. He or she
b. His or Her family

will be shot by the IRA on the orders of the Sinn Fein army council and we all know who is charge of that. I worked with a number of catholics, some who were not able to go home ever, some who had to travel long distances away from thier home just to meet up with their families. And remember !2% of 14,000 is over 1500. Cannot be all bad.
Secondly, you mention the incident in portadown. you have i presume never heard of a "come on" situation. This is where the police are lured out of their vehicle by some incident and then murdered by gangsters without being given a chance to surrender or be arrested. Hence the reluctance for police to get out of thier vehicles, so once again you can blame this murder on Sinn Fein/Ira.
If you wish to actually learn the truth on Northern Ireland avoid taking the side of murderers like you have done

 

[editor]

Viperman: it's very, very rude to use my boards, make disgraceful comments about my fellow Brixtonians and then persisitently ignore my polite requests for you to clarify those comments.

At the moment, your suggestion about Brixtonians not being hard working or honest strikes me as being deeply offensive.

Now substantiate them or fuck off.

 

[viperman]

Dear Editor

I have been branded, racist, bigoted, stupid homophobic and lots of other things, without justification, frankly speaking I don't give a fuck. The force I worked for with great pride have been ridiculed and slagged off on this site and when I protested about other peoples comments you did NOTHING.

 

[wildwildlifer]

aaaaahhhhhhh,diddums

 

[viperman]

for once

I agree with your comments about Editor. Sticks and stones etc

 

[pooka]

V

Viperman,

I thought it regretable that people responded to your slurs on Brixtonians by questioning the size of your tackle or what sort of car you drive - but if you insult people to their face, some will be stung into an intemperate (though perhaps lighthearted) response. You started the slagging first. remember.

As regards NI and the RUC, I really don't think its relavent to these boards and certainly not these threads. I'm sure we would disagree about the real roots of the problems in NI, but it is a distraction here. Brixton is not a province of UK, was never part of a colony of Britain, has not descended into a guerilla, civil war and so on.

If you genuinely want to contribute to these boards, and gain something from free exchange then you should say whether you really think that people in Brixton, including the people you're addressing here, are layabouts. I for one certainly am not and to my knowledge neither are many of the other people here. You really can't expect people to engage with you if you demonstrate repeatedly that you, for no good reason, hold them in contempt.

pooka