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*Brixton Movement for Justice March

I work as a youth worker in London and know that black and Asian youths suffer considerable harrassment from the police.
I do not think FTP is being negative but more realistic about a bad situation.
The police have been proven insitutionally racist and their reaction in Brixton in December proves that to be sadly the case.
I think that the police and Paddick are the least deserving causes for our campaigning spirit.
In 1993 Virginia Bottomly decided to give the Cruciform building which at the time housed University college hospital, to the MOD for research.
The nurses fought a massive campaign to prevent this.
They had marches and pickets galore. The police fed spoke to the nursing unions and said that if the nurses wore their uniforms on the picket lines then they could expect police support as police and nurses are forced to work closely together.
This was defined as no violence towards the nurses on the picket lines.
Things did get heated and the police did charge the picket line and uniformed nurses came under a hail of police batons.
The police can never be trusted, therefore deserve no support.
There needs to be a reality check, Paddick should stay out of the lime light and speak to his fed rep to deal with work harrassment.
I am not convinced by his departments' record that he is worth any more of our time.
 
devilmaycare: so your positive solutions might be what exactly?

Don't make the mistake of thinking I'm defending all police everywhere or I'm making Paddick out to be some kind of perfect hero. He's not. But as a Brixton resident, I appreciate his open and candid approach and the huge support he's earned from the community speaks volumes. Could you imagine any other Brixton cop getting 83% approval fromthe community at any other time in the past 15 years?

But I'm getting really fed up with the notion that because I support Paddick on this specific set of issues, then that somehow equates to unquestioning support for all police.

That couldn't be further from the truth - I've done more than most in fighting police abuses and even ran an entire campaign (Footie Fans vs CJA) on the issue.

But that doesn't make so bigotted as to announce, "police can never be trusted, therefore deserve no support.

I judge as I find, and so far have found Paddick to be a refreshing and effective contribution to Brixton.
 
Originally posted by editor
We have indeed been there.

Unlike you, I live on Coldharbour Lane and walk up and down it every day, so perhaps you're not the best person to comment on its supposed 'dangers'....
Click to expand...

And you know all about when and where I lived in Brixton do you?

Unlike you I haven't made any money out of this Paddick affair!
 
Come on! (FTP, and devilmaycare too)

Yellow card, FTP!

I think Mike's question was fair .... it would be interesting to see some constructive suggestions from you or others for improvements in Brixton that are practical. Do you see these as coming from a non-Paddick scenario?

I feel slightly insulted by the suggestion/implication that people campaigning for Paddick's reinstatement are somehow slavishly pro-Police/pro-Establishment (?).

Many of those campaigning for his reinstatement have been VERY critical of Policing in Brixton (and elsewhere) in the past and still are if reactioanary traditional Police methods are involved. There could in pragmatic reality be a return towards those if Paddick is not reinstated. I don't say he's sufficient (and his room for manoeuvre may now be restricted even if he does come back) but he may very well, at this time, be necessary. Is anyone more radical than him in terms of Policing methods going to take charge in Brixton at any time soon?

There's nothing wrong (at all) with being idealistic and radical, but there's room for pragmatism too. Paddick is popular for some legitimate reasons, not least hostility towards ASSOCIATED NEWSPAPER-led sleaze-hunts, but also because of the experience of ordinary peeps in Brixton on the ground.
 
Free the peeps said:
Unlike you I haven't made any money out of this Paddick affair!
Click to expand...

Well I would imagine that Mike will be a tad upset by this? I mean it's not true eh? Mike has certainly welcomed his new notoriety but I can't see where he has made any dosh...:confused:
 
Unlike you I haven't made any money out of this Paddick affair
Click to expand...
That is quite the most offensive post I've read here for a long time. Twat.

Still, I guess you'll do anything to avoid answering those awkward questions - like what positive, real-world, achievable solutions have you got for Brixton community policing?

And, as a resident of 10 years, I've every right to challenge your claims about Coldharbour Lane.

Where is it you live?
 
Fair play Ed, let us remember the merchandising - I've seen those trucks taking away the latest line in Brian Paddick dolls. Then there's the lunch boxes and novelty toilet seats - and that doesn't include your gift book stylee "The Little Book of Paddicks"

I myself must confess to having made several thousand pounds selling posters and stickers

Nice little earner, peaceful protest - doncha think?
 
i get a fiver from MI5 every time I alert them to someone giving up on reasoned debate and posting abusive (and slightly envious & catty) messages to disguise their lack of original thought.

cheers ftp, that's me dinner sorted tonight :p

i think the 'paddick worship' has got to have peaked. he's not the messiah and we shouldn't forget that. brixton has policing issues, and brian hasn't resolved all of those. yet.

having said that, he is the freshest, most engaging policeman i've ever encountered, and he's turned my views on policing and the police right around.

to be honest, it's not even the policies that made me think, it was the fact he came to where i hang out and asked me for my opinion that did it for me. he had nothing to gain from asking, beyond a different perspective and insight, and a lot to lose.

no politician, councillor, copper or priest has *ever* done that for me, and for that i respect him and support him.
 
That is quite the most offensive post I've read here for a long time. Twat.
Click to expand...

I found your claim that I had no right to comment on Coldharbour Lane pretty offensive.

As did I your previous suggestion that I had never attended a RTS!

This exchange came about because I posted an article about the MFJ march on the MFJ thread. I posted the thread without comment. I was then asked to give my ideas for "positive policing" in Brixton - and as the MFJ thread is about out of order policing against members of the community, in Brixton, under Paddick's rule, I still question whether the "golden age of Paddick" is myth or reality.

I did not choose to make this exchange personal. But as I have previously noted, I have observed several incidents where the editor has challenged protestors to prove their credentials, which is actually quite a personal thing.

Likewise, I was accused of "whining like a schoolboy" for having the temerity to suggest that it was considered "bad form" to post anything that is viewed as "anti-Paddick", and I have to say that I found that offensive as well. Especially as nothing I have seen since has done anything to dispel that perception.

If it is relevant, I lived on Acre Lane for some years, my daughter lives in Brixton half the time and I go there fairly frequently. So I think that I can safely claim that I do have local connection and that I see no reason that my view of Brixton is any less valid than anyone elses.

And asking an anarchist to suggest how Brixton should be policed is unlikely to get any kind of positive reaction, surely. I do not believe in using force to control people, I believe that we should be dealing with issues as individuals and communities, not looking to "important people" to sort out the mess that other "important people" have created.

I apologise for any offence that I have created editor.

TopCat
I believe that when newspapers commission you to write articles, they pay money.
 
Shame

Unfortunate that it's got like this, cos I'm sure Mike and FTP can find more common ground on relevant issues than it appears from the last few posts :(

Mike I agree he was out of order here but he has contributed positive, well informed insightful stuff as well, quite a lot ...
 
FTP: seemingly embarassed by your inability to offer a single, solitary alternative to Paddick's successful community policing, you appear to be adopting the time-honoured Mail on Sunday 'Operation Discredit' approach, with irrelevant suggestions of self interest and money...

"I believe that when newspapers commission you to write articles, they pay money"

Indeed they do. And, as a working journalist, I would expect to be paid too. Not a lot, but something for my troubles. You got a problem with that?

But if you think that somehow equates to me 'making money out of Paddick' you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

Who do you think finances this site? Pays for the domain name? The bandwidth? The tools to build and update it? Who finances your right to post personal digs here?

And on the direct issue of the Paddick campaign - who's paying me to attend meetings, interviews, monitor the boards, talk to endless journalists, take photos, make flyers, help out campaigners, create and update information and resources on this site and generally sacrifice a sizeable chunk of my time?

Do you think that one single payment from the Guardian comes even remotely close to paying anything but the tiniest fraction of those costs?

Oh and as for this, "I found your claim that I had no right to comment on Coldharbour Lane pretty offensive", I'm afraid that's a plain lie. I made no such statement.

But if you think it's unreasonable to posit that an occasional visitor to Coldharbour Lane is going to know less about the place than someone who's lived, worked, drunk and clubbed there for 10 years solid, I'd love to hear your reasons.
 
Ashamed

If what you say is true, (I do not disbelieve you!), then did anyone have presence of mind to note the Police Officers Collar Numbers...or were they taking the Minor Strike approach of removing such numbers, (I doubt it!). It would also be wise to report these incidents to the most senior officer you can complain to, although you would most likely be directed to an Inspector. It will not matter that those reporting were Protesting, the Officer taking the report must take the matter seriously, even if the Officers suspicion might be that the complaint is false. There would then be a set Procedure for that Officer to follow, but it would not be to simply throw the report in the bin!

All good Police Officers would want these types out of the Service, it is obvious from the reaction here that these incidents cause great concern and distrust amongst the public. Not helpful when you wish to have everyone's help in fighting crime, this is what Brian Paddock is trying to achieve....

Just of interest, how many people have read P.A.C.E - Police And Criminal Evidence Act. I strongly believe that this should be taught at Schools as part of mandatory education. If more people were aware of there exact rights then the Police would have to be come more proficient.
 
Freethepeeps said:

"I believe that we should be dealing with issues as individuals and communities, not looking to "important people" to sort out the mess that other "important people" have created".

That is exactly what the community in Brixton is doing. Brian Paddick's open and accessible policing style is a part of that.

For your information FTP, despite the fact that I have become prominent in this, I am quite happy to criticise and hear criticism of Commander Paddick. The point is that he has proven himself to be a man who actually listens to it.

Do you think people like Lloyd Leon (ex landlord of the Atlantic, now Dogstar) and Colin Marriot (respected youth worker, and about as in touch with what's really going on round here as you can get), both Carribean men here since the sixties who've seen it all before, would be supporting Paddick if he wasn't something really special? They both are - vociferously.

And please stop having a go at Mike. He's pretty sound really you know. He hasn't asked us all for a U75 subscription yet has.... don't you dare Mike ;) .... nor does one of the busiest independent websites (this one) have any advertising on it.
 
Originally posted by editor
That is quite the most offensive post I've read here for a long time. Twat.

Still, I guess you'll do anything to avoid answering those awkward questions - like what positive, real-world, achievable solutions have you got for Brixton community policing?

And, as a resident of 10 years, I've every right to challenge your claims about Coldharbour Lane.

Where is it you live?
Click to expand...
It is a bit rude to call some one a twat, when we are discussing our ideas and views, especailly as editor you have to show some sort restraint.
You have achieved a certain amount of notoriety as editor of this site, so may be it is fair enough to ask what you are getting out of this situation.
Positive policing......
The policing that I witnessed in December in Brixton was out rageous.
I have experienced al sorts of protest policing and the move to violence from the police on that occasion was near enough instant. Usually there is quite a time before the police make such a move.
It seemed to me because most of the protestors were black there was a completely different and more intolerant appraoch.
There are two reasons that I think that the situation with Paddick is out of hand.
The first is that I do not think he has improved Brixton or helped to solve the atmosphere of intimidation that young black and asian people suffer daily from the cops.
The second being, the crowd that are supporting Paddick actually booed down the sister of a victim of police murder when she tried to speak at the meeting.
Positive policing, no such thing but community support by the police could be a start IE responding to situations where people are attacked and harrassed.
Not attacking small demonstrations could be another.
Learning not to be rude and patronising when communicating could even be a third option.
I have grown up around the police and the children of cops. I have seen alot of corruption at first hand, I do not feel that the insitution of the police force is worthy of defence.
Paddick get another job in a better profession if you really are a good guy!
Are you thinking of running as an independent MP for Lambeth?
 
I think an important thing to remember is that all this isn't just about Brian Paddick. It's also about the Brixton community, which has been organising its responses to policing for the last twenty years. As a result of the Scarman Report on the 1981 disturbances, Lambeth introduced lay visiting, where members of the community are authorised to go into police stations and check on the welfare of people being held there. We were the first place anywhere to do that, and now it takes places nationwide.

And the reason it was possible to hold an emergency meeting of the Police Community Consultative Group is that we HAVE a PCCG, which has been raising questions about policing in Lambeth for a long time.

There's nowhere else in the country where issues such as use of CS spray, stop and search and deaths in police custody would be put under as close scrutiny as they are in Lambeth.

Brian Paddick is important because he values that process; I do believe that he respects our community and genuinely wants to work with it. But he'd have mcuh less to work with if this community hadn't been working for itself for the last twenty years.
 
ats, Just for clarity, it's the CPCG. It's taken me years to learn that acronym, it stands for something like the Community Policing Consultative Group (thats the bit I haven't quite committed to memory!)
You are absolutely right. BP has not been operating in a vacuum.
 
devilmaycare: you may not think that Paddick has improved Brixton but the statistics contradict your claim: street crime and buglaries are down and he has achieved an unprecedented 83% support for his policies.

Your comment about "the crowd that are supporting Paddick actually booed down the sister of a victim of police murder when she tried to speak at the meeting" is more than a tad unfair.

Where you at the meeting? If you were, you would have seen that she wasn't 'shouted down' because of who she was - she was shouted down because she loudly tried to disrupt the meeting by shouting incoherently without any explanation. No one had any idea who the woman was - and why should they be expected to know who she was?

But - and this is the important bit - as soon as her identity and case was established, far from being 'booed' she was given the microphone and people listened in silence as she stated her case. She was also then invited to attend a further meeting on the issue.

(Oh, and if you're going it get indignant, at least get your facts right: it was Ricky Bishop's mother, not his sister).

But looking forward, I maintain that the links that Paddick has forged in the Brixton community - white, black, asian and more - are having a positive result. Why else were there black leaders there?!

You clearly don't agree, so (for the second time) what practical, real world and achievable suggestions have you for the policing of Brixton?

And as for the question of 'what am I getting out of this situation', the answer is absolutely nothing at all, apart from a vague and probably naive hope that maybe - just maybe - I might be instrumental in making things a teensy weensy bit better round these parts.

I've been doing much the same for many years now, so perhaps you might understand why I get a little pissed off when it's suggested that there's some financial motive going down.

If I wanted to make money, believe me, there's many, many less stressful and time consuming ways of doing so!
 
From where I sat, just across the aisle from her, I'd say that she sat quietly listening, but started protesting when the crowd gave BPs sudden arrival a standing ovation.

She shouted "This is offensive" a couple of times and was bellowed at by some people nearby. One man in particular caught my attention by getting out of his seat and moving towards her, yelling at her to shut up.

She subsequently became rather incoherent, so her heckling of BP wasn't particularly effective. As I said before, I think she was taken by surprise and whatever her intention for the evening, reacted rather hastily.

Her attempt to speak later was pointedly ignored by the chair (though that may have been because by then she had tied herself to Alex O: the alpha-male antagonism between Lee and Alex was a wonder to behold), and when she did, eventually get the floor the meeting was beginning to break up, and the problem with the mic didn't help either. So she didn't really get a proper hearing.

Her disruptive behaviour was nothing more than a bit of shouting and some heckling. That is commonplace at political rallies, and didn't deserve the rudeness she received (which IME is not commonplace).

There is nothing wrong with dissent.

I don't suppose she feels she put her case across particularly well (whatever her case is, I didn't really find out), but I think she has some reason to come away from that evening feeling pissed off at the way she was treated.
 
Originally posted by editor
devilmaycare: you may not think that Paddick has improved Brixton but the statistics contradict your claim: street crime and buglaries are down and he has achieved an unprecedented 83% support for his policies....
Click to expand...
ED

What I was actualy saying in my question was It may be fair enough to ask what you are getting out of this situation as a point for discussion, not what are you getting out of it.
So if you are going to get indignant then please read my post properly.
I am not accusing you of any thing, I am just asking you to show restraint and to avoid calling board contributors names.
I did offer some practical solutions in my post.
As to black community leaders communicating with Paddick, that does not mean so much it just means that he is more open to dialogue with the community.
Yes this is good but I am arguing that there are other people more in need of campaign support the Paddick.
Statsitics mmmmm always a dodgy one only got to see how the employment figures get cooked to learn not to get too excited by them!
Don't get too stressed!!
 
I think the Paddick worship has gone too far when you have the rightly indignent mother of a man recently killed by police shouted down as she (rightly in my opinion ) heckled Mr Paddick.

This Paddick episode has brought out peoples true colours all right. One the one hand you have the liberal reformists who hanker after a few reforms in our police force in order to have a slightly better and less offensive force. On the other you have the anarchist tendancy who continue to put forward far reaching ideas involving abolishing the police totally and replacing them with something better run by us all.

Mikes rather sneering tone towards the anarcho's grates a bit and reminds me of many Labour party types when faced with criticism of their deeply shit capitalist party. "But what are you doing to help change" was a bleat I heard again and again from those trying to defend the obvious lurch to the right.

I can't see how to reconcile the two positions either, Padiick is either a possible force for reform in a basically ok police force or he is a largely irrelevent distraction in the search for a better society.

:)
 
Well in that sense the whole issue is clearly a distraction. But us liberal reformists actually welcome things that make peoples lives better.

IMO there are clear gains that can be made from the current contradictions. I think the reforms are more important than the man, but the man is an icon because he has personally made a difference. That's all any of us can hope for. So I support him, but (to co-opt a slogan) without illusions.

The bullshit detector needs to be kept in good working order.
 
All positive reform is beneficial, it moves things forward.

Extremists on either side cannot accept the validity of gradual reform because they both live in a (fantasy) world of absolutes.

However extremists find it very difficult to rationally defend their position, their world is one of constant and endless "war" with the other side, and indeed with anyone who does not agree totally with their absolute purist position. No reconciliation is possible with this sort of mindset. Its also, tellingly, very heavily orienated towards villification of other people based on crude stereotyping.

Most people recognise the utter futility of this, not least because of its impractical nature, which is why extremists ultimately become sidelined. They have nothing to offer but conflict.
 
TopCat,

do you think mike's 'sneering' tone towards anarcho's might be due to the difference between a theoretical dicussion of anarchism and the practical issues of day to day policing in lambeth?

even the most committed anarchist must be able to differentiate between opposition to concept's around which society is based (capitalism, authoratarianism, patriarchism), and the practical issues of street crime, choatic drug misuse and policing.

to say 'all coppers are bastards and what we should do is get rid of all police' (not saying you've said this btw) is a great theory, but for those of us living in the real world there are pragmatic day-to-day things that need to be taken care of. even with the abolition of the state as the ultimate aim, there are many steps that need to be taken before it's achieved.

the discussions on u75 at the moment are having real effects, on real people. this is an opportunity for the community in lambeth (of which u75 is a part) to have an influence in how it's policed.

and frankly, anarchy, while 'attractive in theory' (as someone once said), isn't really part of what is currently practically and pragmatically possible, and to draw it into a debate on how lambeth should be policed is relatively unhelpful.

i don't think mike has been 'sneering' though, he's just asking for practical, positive suggestions rather than rhetoric.
 
The criminalisation of cannabis smokers is an issue that causes many people to come into conflict with the police and to have a distrust of the police.

This does not make those people radical really. Many people would have no problem with the police if they could smoke their spliffs without fear of arrest.

Brian Paddick's move to be more liberal with dope smokers does little or nothing to alter the relationship between the police and the policed.

The police will continue to support their masters wishes with the full range of weaponry available to them.

The right to smoke dope in Brixton is going to be cold comfort to the mother of a man shot dead by police.
 
the marginalisation of cannabis smnokers from the law has been one of the greatest barriers between my generation and the law.

i agree, decriminalization may have a de-radicalising effect.

also agreed that it would be cold comfort to a woman who's son has been shot by the police.

*however*,

a police force that is working with the community to reduce the harm caused by certain drugs, may prevent another mother mourning the death of her son from swallowing crack.

i'm not sure i understand your ultimate aim. do you want no policing whatsoever, or do you accept the need for some from of social defence against violence & theft? (genuine question)
 
I have put forward several "reformist" ideas concerning improving policing in Lambeth tight here at the beginning of this thread.

For me the criminalisation of cannabis is not a big problem between myself and the police.

My biggest problem with the police had been their willingness time and time again to violently attack anyone who opposes the current distribution of wealth in this country/world.

Further, the mindset needed to behave in this manner invariably attracts some of the most brutal, bigoted shits to the force with the consequences of deaths in custody and defenceless shootings that have become so familiar.

Mr Paddick has decided join this awful force to "change it from within".

I prefer to try to change it from without.
 
Originally posted by TopCat
The right to smoke dope in Brixton is going to be cold comfort to the mother of a man shot dead by police.
Click to expand...

There are lots more black mothers who have lost sons and daughters shot by gangsters than by the police. Although Derek Bennett was shot by the police within a few hundred yards of my flat and was mentally ill, many local people I know, black and white, feel desperately sorry for all involved, including the officer that shot him. Derek Bennett had a very realistic replica gun and had already forced his way into someones flat. Later, after leaving the flat he attempted to take a hostage. There had been 999 calls from frightened residents about a gunman running around. Tough call for the officer from the ARU to make I'd say.

My neighbour of 13 years was a 67 year old black man, who had not long moved to nice new low-rise flat where he was shot by gangsters and then his body set on fire in his own flat. Luckily the tenants living above managed to escape the ensuing fire. Miss Irie was shot in the head in view of her two small children by a teenage gangster. Paddicks policies, along with the Mets Operation Trident are working hard towards preventing the slaughter of black men and women.

No-one in Brixton has the right to smoke dope. It's still illegal and apparently seizures of cannabis* have gone up in Brixton.

*posted on these boards by someone, I can't remember who, and this is the only thing that I'm not 100% sure of in this post.
 
Mrs Magpie said:
There are lots more black mothers who have lost sons and daughters shot by gangsters than by the police.
Click to expand...

Er I have struggled and failed to see the relevence of this. (perhaps it's cos i'm full of cold)

I am sure that there are lots of black mothers who have lost more sons to disease too...

So the point is?:confused:
 
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