T
TopCat2
Guest
What a load of bollox.
I know of noone who thinks like this.Justify this (IMO) load of tosh please. 
What a load of bollox.
I know of noone who thinks like this.Justify this (IMO) load of tosh please.
T
TopCat2
Guest
All the stoners I know think that the brixton trial was brilliant and were/are confident that it was/is a prelude to a more liberal enforcement of the misuse of drugs act..further it's true! What with Blunketts plans to make it a class c this is happening...
J
johnwisehammer
Guest
I disagree that multiculturalism is a matter of them and us - there was no unitary culture for immigrants to be absorbed into and nor can there be. Culture isn't just living in the same place, obviously, and there's no particular limit to the number that can coexist, subsume or overlap.
T
TopCat2
Guest
Exactly John..beautifully put..
On the ganja : I think Adam has been smoking too much of the special "Paranoia" strain ... how about the least complicated explanation? That the initiative had little to do with govt., but came from the Police on the ground who in Brixton hadn't enough bods on he beat to hassle petty dope smokers all day long when they were supposed to be concentrating on crimes that were really crimes.
How about the still-open possibilty that if this initiative works **to the Police's saisfaction** (see below) it will be extended London-wide? And then country wide? Many forces in many places beyond Brixton **already** turn a blind eye to public smoking (so long as people don't blow smoke from a foot long jay into a copper's face) to formalise the Brixton experiment everywhere (and I **do** see this happening) will remove or at least much reduce scope for Police inconsistency.
Any hassle petty dope possessors/smokers get in London these days is either because they are stupidly obvious about it (it's a piece of piss to avoid attention) or MORE SINISTERLY I'd agree, because the Police are hassling them for something else.
I am not being co-opted (Copted?) by the Police, I will continue to hold a healthy distance from and suspicion of them. And I would thoroughly agree that the kind of hasslement and physical attacks Adam has had from Police in and out of the UK is OUTRAGEOUS.
But on ganja, the Police by force of circumstance are largely ahead of Government thinking. Lets take advantage of their pragmatism.
I'm sure Mr Paddick may have something to say ...
How about the still-open possibilty that if this initiative works **to the Police's saisfaction** (see below) it will be extended London-wide? And then country wide? Many forces in many places beyond Brixton **already** turn a blind eye to public smoking (so long as people don't blow smoke from a foot long jay into a copper's face) to formalise the Brixton experiment everywhere (and I **do** see this happening) will remove or at least much reduce scope for Police inconsistency.
Any hassle petty dope possessors/smokers get in London these days is either because they are stupidly obvious about it (it's a piece of piss to avoid attention) or MORE SINISTERLY I'd agree, because the Police are hassling them for something else.
I am not being co-opted (Copted?) by the Police, I will continue to hold a healthy distance from and suspicion of them. And I would thoroughly agree that the kind of hasslement and physical attacks Adam has had from Police in and out of the UK is OUTRAGEOUS.
But on ganja, the Police by force of circumstance are largely ahead of Government thinking. Lets take advantage of their pragmatism.
I'm sure Mr Paddick may have something to say ...
J
J-Bob
Guest
Presumably, because you weren't covering the same issues that you are now and weren't at demo's where police brutality is common, even to those non-journalists among us.
Have you actually been to Brixton, Adam ? Do you know what you're talking about ? It was a good idea to run the pilot scheme there because more people were getting nicked there for personal possession of cannabis than anywhere else. It would have been a bit silly to run it in Knightsbridge, which is not renowed for its street life and its open drug dealing.
Actually, it was in the borough Lambeth - but never let the facts get in the way of a good rant, eh ? Lambeth has a diverse mix of people, income's, housing stock etc. As for the second bit about racism, which others here have discredited admirably; is this not more a reflection of your own thinking ?
[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: J-B ]
TinyCrendon
New Member
No I dont agree with you.
I know plenty of people who just think its Brixton getting preferential treatment. They dont, as you might realise, come from the same political strand as me. Or most of you lot.
In Brixton/Lambeth it may well be seen as a positive thing. Outside London however the connection between Brixton/black people/poor people and drugs is one made over and over again by the right over the years. This is no different, just a liberal version of the same. Why for example not pick a different are for this `pilot scheme`...why Brixton/Lambeth. Why not Gateshead or Leamington Spa, afater all they have dope smokers too.
As for `multiculturalism` this is the sort of state initiative that would have been useful in the 1950s but not now.
There's plenty of other writing on the subject from people like AFA and Spiked and the like. I, for example, dont beleive that a bloke whos Mum and Dad came from India has a different `culture` to me. I think the differences are miniscule. The underlying `culture` of any country should involve security, food, water, heating, accountability and other general underlying factors about how people live their lives. The fact that one bloke may have eaten more goat curry and rice and someone might have eaten chips and someone else might have eaten blinitz more or less as they grew up is a toatal irrelevancy. Religion, music, dress also...
Every time some liberal comes on the TV and starts on about `multiculturalism` my mates who arent white just despair...
But what about me then? Im a half Yid. Where do I come in the multicultural racial classification table. Near-white? Do I need special help ? Eat less bagels ? Should I be more English ? More Jewish ?
Do you get my drift ? Do you think there are no questions to be answered here ? I think we on this board can do better than just go bollocks/you smoke too much weed etc...
Separating out cultures is devisive, as we have seen.
And if you disagree with me can you hold on to the abuse I dont think ive ever abused any of you except in jest. If you can convince me Im wrong, as youve seen in the past, I go `ok, youre right I was wrong` do I not ? Ok?
also: yes i know, and like, Brixton...the journalism question was an obvious rhetorical one aimed at the OB chap...
JW: "I disagree that multiculturalism is a matter of them and us - there was no unitary culture for immigrants to be absorbed into and nor can there be. Culture isn't just living in the same place, obviously, and there's no particular limit to the number that can coexist, subsume or overlap."
Exactly. But the non-unitary Britain that you speak of has had immigration for hundereds of years. The more recent immigrants to the UK have also been here for many years (lets say 40-20). So why bring it up now? Why point it out now ? Since this whole `initiative` things have got worse not better. To me the `multicultural` notion is merely a smokescreen for the straight up and down racism that exists, especially within the state (police, army, judiciary etc etc).
What it has done is exacerbate areas of public life who were far less racist than the state by making (mainly white) people think that black people, asian people, jewish people, assylum seekers etc etc are now getting a `better deal` than they are.
phew its a long one...
[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: AdamP ]
I know plenty of people who just think its Brixton getting preferential treatment. They dont, as you might realise, come from the same political strand as me. Or most of you lot.
In Brixton/Lambeth it may well be seen as a positive thing. Outside London however the connection between Brixton/black people/poor people and drugs is one made over and over again by the right over the years. This is no different, just a liberal version of the same. Why for example not pick a different are for this `pilot scheme`...why Brixton/Lambeth. Why not Gateshead or Leamington Spa, afater all they have dope smokers too.
As for `multiculturalism` this is the sort of state initiative that would have been useful in the 1950s but not now.
There's plenty of other writing on the subject from people like AFA and Spiked and the like. I, for example, dont beleive that a bloke whos Mum and Dad came from India has a different `culture` to me. I think the differences are miniscule. The underlying `culture` of any country should involve security, food, water, heating, accountability and other general underlying factors about how people live their lives. The fact that one bloke may have eaten more goat curry and rice and someone might have eaten chips and someone else might have eaten blinitz more or less as they grew up is a toatal irrelevancy. Religion, music, dress also...
Every time some liberal comes on the TV and starts on about `multiculturalism` my mates who arent white just despair...
But what about me then? Im a half Yid. Where do I come in the multicultural racial classification table. Near-white? Do I need special help ? Eat less bagels ? Should I be more English ? More Jewish ?
Do you get my drift ? Do you think there are no questions to be answered here ? I think we on this board can do better than just go bollocks/you smoke too much weed etc...
Separating out cultures is devisive, as we have seen.
And if you disagree with me can you hold on to the abuse I dont think ive ever abused any of you except in jest. If you can convince me Im wrong, as youve seen in the past, I go `ok, youre right I was wrong` do I not ? Ok?
also: yes i know, and like, Brixton...the journalism question was an obvious rhetorical one aimed at the OB chap...
JW: "I disagree that multiculturalism is a matter of them and us - there was no unitary culture for immigrants to be absorbed into and nor can there be. Culture isn't just living in the same place, obviously, and there's no particular limit to the number that can coexist, subsume or overlap."
Exactly. But the non-unitary Britain that you speak of has had immigration for hundereds of years. The more recent immigrants to the UK have also been here for many years (lets say 40-20). So why bring it up now? Why point it out now ? Since this whole `initiative` things have got worse not better. To me the `multicultural` notion is merely a smokescreen for the straight up and down racism that exists, especially within the state (police, army, judiciary etc etc).
What it has done is exacerbate areas of public life who were far less racist than the state by making (mainly white) people think that black people, asian people, jewish people, assylum seekers etc etc are now getting a `better deal` than they are.
phew its a long one...
[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: AdamP ]
Just one thing ... I disagree with the idea that music is irrelevant. I see your point about surface differences being unimportant between different parts of the single human race, compared to common interests uniting us, but music to me has been a very important force for breaking down barriers .. or is that only amongst the liberal Guardian reading wankers?
I **am** cautious about using the term "multiculturalism" because it does have cliched connotations as does "vibrant diverse community" blah blah ... but there's nothing wrong with the CONCEPT/IDEAL. The argument is over how best to achieve it.
I still think you've got it wrong about the ganja thing. It was the right thing to do as a GATEWAY
to softening/removing restrictions elsewhere.
I **am** cautious about using the term "multiculturalism" because it does have cliched connotations as does "vibrant diverse community" blah blah ... but there's nothing wrong with the CONCEPT/IDEAL. The argument is over how best to achieve it.
I still think you've got it wrong about the ganja thing. It was the right thing to do as a GATEWAY
to softening/removing restrictions elsewhere.TinyCrendon
New Member
W.O.W - Ok, I hope the ganja laws are changed everywhere v quick. As I remember when Blunky annaounced cat c status it was supposed to come into force in mid-Jan, I dont know when its going to happen though. But I still dont like the association I feel was made for home counties/rural UK.
I hope I made the point about why i find the term/political concept `mc` divisive. But OF COURSE I want a multi-racial,(also mutli-ethnic) society. In fact I'd say we already have a multi-racial society, its here, its not going away and everyone who doesnt like it hard fucking luck. I love it. <dances about middle fingers to nazis tongue out>
As a brief generalisation I would say that all peeps, (wherever they/their parents/gparents came from), want is to be accepted as an individual with their `race` `ethnicity` etc not brought into question, whether you do good OR bad. EG: If I kick you on a Sunday morning playing footy and you call me a `cunt` thats fine. If you call me a `Yid cunt` i'll (try and) bash you.
From that starting point people who then go on to proclaim their `superiority` because of their whiteness/blackness/religous affiliations etc can be criticised.
Huey Newton of the Panthers for example hated the Nation of Islam because he saw them as "cultural nationalists". (see Sieze The Time by Bobby Seale)
Tony Blair preaches `mc-ism` but then cements segregation in schools (see cultural nationalism above) as if that kind of `mc-ism` is helpful. (of course im also against Catholic/Jewish/C of E exclusive schools too).
Check out these articles: AND NO I DONT SUBSCRIBE TO THE TOTALITY OF THESE SITES VIEWS the articles are interesting though.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/5602/main.html
http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000002D35E.htm
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/392/after_bradford.html
http://www.redaction.org/race_and_class/contents.html
I hope I made the point about why i find the term/political concept `mc` divisive. But OF COURSE I want a multi-racial,(also mutli-ethnic) society. In fact I'd say we already have a multi-racial society, its here, its not going away and everyone who doesnt like it hard fucking luck. I love it. <dances about middle fingers to nazis tongue out>
As a brief generalisation I would say that all peeps, (wherever they/their parents/gparents came from), want is to be accepted as an individual with their `race` `ethnicity` etc not brought into question, whether you do good OR bad. EG: If I kick you on a Sunday morning playing footy and you call me a `cunt` thats fine. If you call me a `Yid cunt` i'll (try and) bash you.
From that starting point people who then go on to proclaim their `superiority` because of their whiteness/blackness/religous affiliations etc can be criticised.
Huey Newton of the Panthers for example hated the Nation of Islam because he saw them as "cultural nationalists". (see Sieze The Time by Bobby Seale)
Tony Blair preaches `mc-ism` but then cements segregation in schools (see cultural nationalism above) as if that kind of `mc-ism` is helpful. (of course im also against Catholic/Jewish/C of E exclusive schools too).
Check out these articles: AND NO I DONT SUBSCRIBE TO THE TOTALITY OF THESE SITES VIEWS the articles are interesting though.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/5602/main.html
http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000002D35E.htm
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/392/after_bradford.html
http://www.redaction.org/race_and_class/contents.html
I'll let others more eloquent debate this. I can see that the current political spin on "multicultural Britain", could feed right into the hands of the right wing - emphasising difference rather than human similarity.
I don't really believe that this situation has been deliberately engineered.
And I am certain that the Lambeth experiment with cannabis was a practical measure originating locally. I feel sure there is no hidden aganda here. If some people outside the area see Lambeth/Brixton in terms of drugs/black/poor in that one-dimensional way then they must be pretty unthinking.
I can't quite put my finger on it, but I think you are over-intellectualising or something Adam. I'm not against you and I'm still listening but I don't think "yes this guy's been there, he knows what's what". Sorry.
Edited to say this was put up before I saw the above post which seem abit more straight talking.
[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: hatboy ]
I don't really believe that this situation has been deliberately engineered.
And I am certain that the Lambeth experiment with cannabis was a practical measure originating locally. I feel sure there is no hidden aganda here. If some people outside the area see Lambeth/Brixton in terms of drugs/black/poor in that one-dimensional way then they must be pretty unthinking.
I can't quite put my finger on it, but I think you are over-intellectualising or something Adam. I'm not against you and I'm still listening but I don't think "yes this guy's been there, he knows what's what". Sorry.
Edited to say this was put up before I saw the above post which seem abit more straight talking.
[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: hatboy ]
J
johnwisehammer
Guest
I just don't understand what you're saying: multiculturalism in the UK began (really) with Roy Jenkins in the 60s, talking about an alternative to the crushing and demoralising process of assimilation, which was the alternative (as pursued in France, unsuccessfully and to the chagrin of cultural minorities there).
I don't really understand what you mean when you say culture isn't constituted by diet, religion, dress, music and so on, when these are exactly the things through which cultural identity creates and recreates itself. If you strip all that away, all we are is consumers - which I agree is pretty much homogenous across Europe (in fact, just about everywhere West of Jerusalem).
I don't really understand why you pursue the BNP's idea that accepting that cultures other than your own makes you less of your culture, or why you think there's a racial classification table for culture (also a bizarre BNP line, confusing culture and race), or why you think it restricts your identity choices. Multiculturalism doesn't mean you have to eat more or fewer bagels, it means that the bagel shop can be opposite the Turkish bakery.
As a side note, I don't think that you can separate multiculturalism from what was happening in the UK's white populations at the time - the cracks in the English Protestant (Francophone) upper class dominance of the UK were beginning to crack, the Catholics in NI were kicking off, the Scots were getting slightly restless. IMO, multiculturalism is as much an acknowledgement of the cultural diversity of the aboriginal British populations as much as the more recent immigrants.
I don't quite understand why you think it's a coverup for prejudice in civil institutions either. I basically just don't understand what you're saying!
I don't really understand what you mean when you say culture isn't constituted by diet, religion, dress, music and so on, when these are exactly the things through which cultural identity creates and recreates itself. If you strip all that away, all we are is consumers - which I agree is pretty much homogenous across Europe (in fact, just about everywhere West of Jerusalem).
I don't really understand why you pursue the BNP's idea that accepting that cultures other than your own makes you less of your culture, or why you think there's a racial classification table for culture (also a bizarre BNP line, confusing culture and race), or why you think it restricts your identity choices. Multiculturalism doesn't mean you have to eat more or fewer bagels, it means that the bagel shop can be opposite the Turkish bakery.
As a side note, I don't think that you can separate multiculturalism from what was happening in the UK's white populations at the time - the cracks in the English Protestant (Francophone) upper class dominance of the UK were beginning to crack, the Catholics in NI were kicking off, the Scots were getting slightly restless. IMO, multiculturalism is as much an acknowledgement of the cultural diversity of the aboriginal British populations as much as the more recent immigrants.
I don't quite understand why you think it's a coverup for prejudice in civil institutions either. I basically just don't understand what you're saying!
TinyCrendon
New Member
jw - quickly
"I just don't understand what you're saying: multiculturalism in the UK began (really) with Roy Jenkins in the 60s, talking about an alternative to the crushing and demoralising process of assimilation, which was the alternative (as pursued in France, unsuccessfully and to the chagrin of cultural minorities there)."
*I was referring to the Tony Blair version not to the 60s version.*
I don't really understand what you mean when you say culture isn't constituted by diet, religion, dress, music and so on, when these are exactly the things through which cultural identity creates and recreates itself. If you strip all that away, all we are is consumers - which I agree is pretty much homogenous across Europe (in fact, just about everywhere West of Jerusalem).
*I would say that we would be `citizens` rather than consumers. Equal in every respect. *
I don't really understand why you pursue the BNP's idea...
*Er...I dont *
...that accepting that cultures other than your own makes you less of your culture...
* i dont at all *
...or why you think there's a racial classification table for culture (also a bizarre BNP line, confusing culture and race), or why you think it restricts your identity choices. Multiculturalism doesn't mean you have to eat more or fewer bagels, it means that the bagel shop can be opposite the Turkish bakery.
* Isnt that multiethnic ? Food isnt `culture` *
As a side note, I don't think that you can separate multiculturalism from what was happening in the UK's white populations at the time - the cracks in the English Protestant (Francophone) upper class dominance of the UK were beginning to crack, the Catholics in NI were kicking off, the Scots were getting slightly restless. IMO, multiculturalism is as much an acknowledgement of the cultural diversity of the aboriginal British populations as much as the more recent immigrants.
* Im not sure about this, what is `aboriginal` ? Sure Irish, Scotish people and so on should be respected *
I don't quite understand why you think it's a coverup for prejudice in civil institutions either.
* because it places the emphasis on `accepting` our multi racial society that is already here on ordinary people. it fails to address the fact that the vast majority HAVE accepted it as opposed to the state which has not *
HATboy
"I can't quite put my finger on it, but I think you are over-intellectualising or something Adam."
* I hope not I was just responding to all the arguments in one post *
"I'm not against you and I'm still listening but I don't think "yes this guy's been there, he knows what's what". Sorry."
No probs...have a look at those articles I pointed out, what do you think of them ?
"I just don't understand what you're saying: multiculturalism in the UK began (really) with Roy Jenkins in the 60s, talking about an alternative to the crushing and demoralising process of assimilation, which was the alternative (as pursued in France, unsuccessfully and to the chagrin of cultural minorities there)."
*I was referring to the Tony Blair version not to the 60s version.*
I don't really understand what you mean when you say culture isn't constituted by diet, religion, dress, music and so on, when these are exactly the things through which cultural identity creates and recreates itself. If you strip all that away, all we are is consumers - which I agree is pretty much homogenous across Europe (in fact, just about everywhere West of Jerusalem).
*I would say that we would be `citizens` rather than consumers. Equal in every respect. *
I don't really understand why you pursue the BNP's idea...
*Er...I dont *
...that accepting that cultures other than your own makes you less of your culture...
* i dont at all *
...or why you think there's a racial classification table for culture (also a bizarre BNP line, confusing culture and race), or why you think it restricts your identity choices. Multiculturalism doesn't mean you have to eat more or fewer bagels, it means that the bagel shop can be opposite the Turkish bakery.
* Isnt that multiethnic ? Food isnt `culture` *
As a side note, I don't think that you can separate multiculturalism from what was happening in the UK's white populations at the time - the cracks in the English Protestant (Francophone) upper class dominance of the UK were beginning to crack, the Catholics in NI were kicking off, the Scots were getting slightly restless. IMO, multiculturalism is as much an acknowledgement of the cultural diversity of the aboriginal British populations as much as the more recent immigrants.
* Im not sure about this, what is `aboriginal` ? Sure Irish, Scotish people and so on should be respected *
I don't quite understand why you think it's a coverup for prejudice in civil institutions either.
* because it places the emphasis on `accepting` our multi racial society that is already here on ordinary people. it fails to address the fact that the vast majority HAVE accepted it as opposed to the state which has not *
HATboy
"I can't quite put my finger on it, but I think you are over-intellectualising or something Adam."
* I hope not I was just responding to all the arguments in one post *
"I'm not against you and I'm still listening but I don't think "yes this guy's been there, he knows what's what". Sorry."
No probs...have a look at those articles I pointed out, what do you think of them ?
J
johnwisehammer
Guest
I don't think that multiculturalism weakens citizenship (formal, distinct from community - or should be), I think it strengthens it. I certainly have no desire to be "just a citizen" like everyone else in the EU at the expense of my identity groups! Citizenship is something that's organised/administered by the state, while culture and state are mutually constitutive with a very tetchy relationship.
Food isn't culture?
Surely you're not trying to ignore the role food plays in society and culture? The way it's served, the dishes and ingredients chosen, the timing are all deeply significant. Christmas cakes, Pimm's, hot cross buns, cucumber sandwiches, haggis, those big Italian cakes - if it wasn't cultural, then there would be no reason why those things above were served at specific times of year or associated with specific nationalities/identity groups. In fact, if food wasn't cultural, then the rice and peas/Jamaican and bagels/Jewish associations wouldn't make sense at all.
Food isn't culture?
Surely you're not trying to ignore the role food plays in society and culture? The way it's served, the dishes and ingredients chosen, the timing are all deeply significant. Christmas cakes, Pimm's, hot cross buns, cucumber sandwiches, haggis, those big Italian cakes - if it wasn't cultural, then there would be no reason why those things above were served at specific times of year or associated with specific nationalities/identity groups. In fact, if food wasn't cultural, then the rice and peas/Jamaican and bagels/Jewish associations wouldn't make sense at all.
TinyCrendon
New Member
.
Cautious Fred
commie troublemaker
I notice that copper's scarpered.
Hi Guys! I did say I that I would not be around for a while as I have just moved home...oh and I do have a police service to run.
The cannabis pilot was my idea for a number of reasons. A cop at Brixton was arrested for seizing cannabis and then throwing it away instead of doing things officially (more to it than that but that is what the other cops thought). His colleagues rightly said they were going to arrest everyone in the future rather than dealing with it informally as they did not want to get nicked. I did not want them to do that. Second, ever since I was a sergeant here in 1982, cannabis has never been a big deal for local people. I did not think there would be much opposition. The police have got more important things to do in Lambeth that local people really are concerned about. I wanted an official short-cut way of dealing with cannabis so we did not waste too much time on what local think is a minor issue. Nothing to do with race just practicalities. Why Lambeth? Because I am the Borough Commander for Lambeth! Simple, no hidden agendas, just common sense (well I thought so!)
Multiculturalism - yuck! What I want is this. I'm gay. I do not want to be accepted because I act straight (well most of the time!). I want people to know I am gay and to accept me for what I am. I want black and Asian and whatever minority people to be accepted for who and what they are in the same way. Not because they act or behave or try to look like the majority but because people are broad minded enought to say "s/he's different, that's OK with me". Not very intellectual, but hey, what do you expect from a plod!! (If you want to get familiar, I try to get everyone to call me Brian).
The cannabis pilot was my idea for a number of reasons. A cop at Brixton was arrested for seizing cannabis and then throwing it away instead of doing things officially (more to it than that but that is what the other cops thought). His colleagues rightly said they were going to arrest everyone in the future rather than dealing with it informally as they did not want to get nicked. I did not want them to do that. Second, ever since I was a sergeant here in 1982, cannabis has never been a big deal for local people. I did not think there would be much opposition. The police have got more important things to do in Lambeth that local people really are concerned about. I wanted an official short-cut way of dealing with cannabis so we did not waste too much time on what local think is a minor issue. Nothing to do with race just practicalities. Why Lambeth? Because I am the Borough Commander for Lambeth! Simple, no hidden agendas, just common sense (well I thought so!)
Multiculturalism - yuck! What I want is this. I'm gay. I do not want to be accepted because I act straight (well most of the time!). I want people to know I am gay and to accept me for what I am. I want black and Asian and whatever minority people to be accepted for who and what they are in the same way. Not because they act or behave or try to look like the majority but because people are broad minded enought to say "s/he's different, that's OK with me". Not very intellectual, but hey, what do you expect from a plod!! (If you want to get familiar, I try to get everyone to call me Brian).
Do you have any opinion about Fred Broughton's evidence to the Commons Home Affairs Committee, Commander?
His views seem to be somewhat at variance with yours ...
His views seem to be somewhat at variance with yours ...
J
johnwisehammer
Guest
Commander - why are you bringing homosexuality into a discussion about multiculturalism?
"Not because they act or behave or try to look like the majority but because people are broad minded enought to say "s/he's different, that's OK with me"."
Why "yuck"? That's exactly what multiculturalism is - it's assimilation where everybody has to act the same no matter what their heritage/ ethnicity/ race/ nationality is.
"Not because they act or behave or try to look like the majority but because people are broad minded enought to say "s/he's different, that's OK with me"."
Why "yuck"? That's exactly what multiculturalism is - it's assimilation where everybody has to act the same no matter what their heritage/ ethnicity/ race/ nationality is.
I imagine the Commander brought homosexuality into a discussion on multiculturalism because he is (as am I) in that minority, albeit not an ethnic one. Some gay guys (not all) have a greater understanding of what it is like to be outside the majority population and to experience prejudice. It may not be the same as racial prejudice, but there are similarities.
Secondly, why shouldn't he mention it?
"Big up the battyman babylon!", that's what I say. Well actually that's not how I speak atall, I just thought that was funny.
I think it's great that you are contributing here Brian, and I understand that you get the thumbs up from Jo Negrini and Darcus Howe for starters. I do hope you're not gonna get undermined by more reactionary members of the Met? I fear you will get moved on for rocking the boat.
So, when you coming round for a spliff mate?
Secondly, why shouldn't he mention it?
"Big up the battyman babylon!", that's what I say. Well actually that's not how I speak atall, I just thought that was funny.
I think it's great that you are contributing here Brian, and I understand that you get the thumbs up from Jo Negrini and Darcus Howe for starters. I do hope you're not gonna get undermined by more reactionary members of the Met? I fear you will get moved on for rocking the boat.
So, when you coming round for a spliff mate?
T
TopCat2
Guest
Er if thats multiculturisem then you can keep it... I am perfectly happy that our society is made up of different types of people with different ways of doing things. i don't demand that people conform to some mythical english culture vive le difference...
J
johnwisehammer
Guest
Hatboy - he might well be gay - but that's not a culture in the proper sense of the word that multiculturalism emerges from. It's a subculture - you're still English, Pakistani, Nigerian or whatever.
TC - bollocks, I've not explained it very well, have I? I'm saying that what The Commander is describing as multiculturalism is *actually* assimilation. They're two different things: assimilation is where everybody acts the same no matter what (like in France when they went through a period of pretending everybody's ancestors were the Gauls, even if you were an Algerian or a Alsatian) while multiculturalism is where everybody gets to do their own thing in the private sphere and everybody has to respect each other. I think assimilation is shit and multiculturalism is great.
TC - bollocks, I've not explained it very well, have I? I'm saying that what The Commander is describing as multiculturalism is *actually* assimilation. They're two different things: assimilation is where everybody acts the same no matter what (like in France when they went through a period of pretending everybody's ancestors were the Gauls, even if you were an Algerian or a Alsatian) while multiculturalism is where everybody gets to do their own thing in the private sphere and everybody has to respect each other. I think assimilation is shit and multiculturalism is great.
mach v
la-di-dah liberal wuss
That's just ethnic cultures, but Commander and HB are right you can't call homosexuality a sub culture if it spans all other cultures, it becomes it's own culture in its own right.
Multiculturalism (for me, anyway) is about all cultures, be it sexual, sex, age, ethnic, class, whatever coexisting along side and tollerating each other within the same space.
"Vivre le Difference!"
T
TopCat2
Guest
But for me there are limits to tolerance..I won't respect those who practise "female circumcision" for instance and I have a thinly veiled contempt for religous types especially those whose religion is a cover for the oppression of women.
TinyCrendon
New Member
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T
TopCat2
Guest
The commander did send me an e-mail from a met police address that belongs to Mr Paddick so that checks out..Plus he seems to ring true no?
Thanks for the back-up Mach V. I personally don't really think about whether being gay is a sub-culture or a culture. But it pisses me off when other people get too theoretical about what is my everyday life. I know you are quite an intellectual person JW, but I don't need you to tell me whether being gay is part of a sub-culture or a culture. I know what it's like to be gay. Unless you are gay you don't.
Which brings me to what I wanted to say, which is that above Mr Paddick excuses himself for not being an intellectual - "what do you expect from a plod?" - Irrelevant. Brian, you seem to exhibit a fair amount of empathy and humanity. If you continue to do that, it doesn't matter that you don't see yourself as an intellectual.
Sometimes so-called "intellectuals" are quite out-of-touch with people anyway.
Which brings me to what I wanted to say, which is that above Mr Paddick excuses himself for not being an intellectual - "what do you expect from a plod?" - Irrelevant. Brian, you seem to exhibit a fair amount of empathy and humanity. If you continue to do that, it doesn't matter that you don't see yourself as an intellectual.
Sometimes so-called "intellectuals" are quite out-of-touch with people anyway.
