*Brixton Movement for Justice March

[Derek]

There have been a few campaigns for justice for white people too who had been killed in similar situations such as Harry Stanley who was shot while carrying a table leg that police thought was a shotgun. There was also another case in which a suspected IRA member was shot down on his doorstep a while back.

 

[mobymonster]

There have been a few campaigns for justice for white people too who had been killed in similar situations

and can I assume that Alex Owolade, Chairman of 'Movement for Justice' campaigned on the white's behalf ?

mobymonster

 

[ginger]

and can I assume that Alex Owolade, Chairman of 'Movement for Justice' campaigned on the white's behalf

The united friends and family campaign were involved in the harry stanley case. I don't know whether the Brixton based M4J were involved directly but Harry's best friend was at one of the M4J things I went to, so at least some of their supporters were involved.

Police oppression is not just a race issue, and I don't know anyone who believes thats all it is.

 

[freethepeeps]

and can I assume that Alex Owolade, Chairman of 'Movement for Justice' campaigned on the white's behalf ?

What exactly was the point of this question, Moby? Surely no deaths in police custody are acceptable! Neither are deaths at the hands of police marksmen! It would be absurd to expect the M4J to be campaigning against the deaths of whites in custody, when there have been 3 black deaths in the last 4 months, and no white deaths during that period!

If you are asking whether Alex Owolade or the M4J are racist, then the answer is NO!! There were many whites on the march and at the meetings and they were welcomed without hostility!

So, what were you trying to establish?

 

[mobymonster]

freethepeeps, if you were taken hostage and had a gun pointed at you (by, what was reported at the time by locals as someone involved with drugs)I'm sure after you had stopped shitting your pants that you wouldn't give a toss how the police rescued you and are you suggesting that armed criminals should not be tackled by armed police.

It's quite simple really if you carry a gun and commit a crime tough shit if you get shot, don't want to get shot don't carry a gun or an offensive wpn. Yes I know mistakes get made and that's tragic, but it's life. The criminals who carry guns are the ones who have caused the police to be armed not the other way round.

I accept that this march started out with good intentions but as usual the rent a mob turns into violence, so what do you expect the police to do ?

You asked earlier why was one shot in the back several times, who cares, the probable answer is because thats where some of the armed police were and contary to the films one shot does not always incapacitate or kill thats why several shots were fired. If I was taken hostage by some moron I wouldn't care where he was shot, front, back and sides would do me fine and many many times would be good also.

Why have you brought race into this ? and lastly why was Alex sacked ? (I have run a search but can't get the info)

mobymonster

PS happy new year lefties

 

[freethepeeps]

I accept that this march started out with good intentions but as usual the rent a mob turns into violence, so what do you expect the police to do ?

Erm, wrong ! The shop windows were smashed after the police decided to circle the march! The police claimed that they were trying to prevent a breach of the peace! Hm - looks like they caused one!

Why have you brought race into this ?

I thought that was you Moby - see the quote on my last post!

and lastly why was Alex sacked ?

My understanding is that Alex was asked to condemn the violence following a march in July. He refused to do this, for similar reasons that ginger made her impssioned posts about the latest march. Shortly afterwards Alex was sacked on some trumped up disciplinary charge relating to his activities as a Union Organiser some eight months before that.

You seem to have some blind faith that the police are acting out of altruistic motives by shooting peoplke in the back. BTW they were then seen taking the lighter out of his pockets and placing it near his hand!

You might think they are fit to be Judge, Jury and Executioner! I think that they are racist, corrupt and prejudiced in their dealings with members of the public.

BTW, how many cops have been shot in Brixton recently?

 

[editor]

BTW they were then seen taking the lighter out of his pockets and placing it near his hand

I've never seen this reported anywhere. Could you cite your sources, please?

And one other thing: does anyone know what windows were actually smashed? I didn't see any shops with broken windows as I walked through Brixton directly after the event.

 

[freethepeeps]

The claim about the cigarrette lighter was made openly at M4J meetings and rallys, including during the meeting with the Mayor!

I don't know what windows were smashed, but hopefully Ginger can provide more information on this!

 

[drfranni]

I watched the "riot" for a while and then, like several correspondents, walked through Brixton much later when there were a great many police on the streets but general good humour and distinct lack of broken glass. Maybe the broken windows were right down at the end, past the police station because that is where the very small crowd was - outnumbered several times by police, it appeared.

Actually I didn't mean to post about that - it is the use of the term "racism". It becomes increasingly clear to me that the goal posts have moved on this word. It is extremely rare that I am ever in the company of a "white" person who makes any remark which even the most paranoid or politically correct could claim as rascist and I am very happy about that(but din't kid myself that it has vanished, simply become less acceptable, even amongst taxi drivers!) However when I am in the company of friends from a vaguely caribean background (I mean that either they or their parents came to the UK from the caribean) I hear a great deal of racism - mostly directed at asians and africans. Although I know fewer asian people, I am told that the same applies and have certainly heard very unpleasant generalisations from asian friends. This racism has already claimed lives locally and yet it sometimes seems to be a subject too "sensitive" to broach

 

[mobymonster]

freethepeeps:

BTW they were then seen taking the lighter out of his pockets and placing it near his hand!

If that is true and I doubt it, then indeed there would not seem any reason to shoot.

Sometimes when you shoot someone in the "front" they can spin round , further shots fired at almost the same time will enter the back or side. I don't have a problem about shooting an armed criminal in the back.

Surely ALL violence should be condemed or ALL violence is OK which is it ?. If Alex is happy with violence against the police then you can't complain about their violence can you ?.

You might think they are fit to be Judge, Jury and Executioner! I think that they are racist, corrupt and prejudiced in their dealings with members of the public.

But if ever you have a crime committed against you, I'll bet you won't hesitate to call them and if you think that all police are what you say you are wrong IMO.

drfranni,
So called "black on black" racism is something that I believe is covered up and not discussed as it would not fit in with the sterotype only whites are racist view.

mobymonster

 

[bezzer]

moby...
its not something which is coverd up, its more the case that a lot of people from different backgrounds dont mix socaliy enough, to relise the internal politics between different ethnic groups.

[ 31 December 2001: Message edited by: bezzer ]

 

[johnwisehammer]

"But if ever you have a crime committed against you, I'll bet you won't hesitate to call them"

But that's a complete bollocks of a statement, isn't it? I chip in towards a fair, efficient and publicly accountable police service - if I get pissed off when I receive an inefficient, bigoted and self-serving police force, does that somehow invalidate my right to police service? Of course it fucking doesn't.

"If you carry a gun and commit a crime, tough shit"

Apparantly, it's also tough shit if you commit the perfectly innocent task of walking down the street while carrying a table leg or even sleeping naked in your bed at home, 'cos you still end up dead.

If all police killings are mistakes and "tragic" (as if they were some kind of predestined natural phenomena beyond the control of humans) and inevitably happen, why is that a quite disproportionate number of these "tragedies" happen to nonwhites? And if these police killings are sadly necessary and nothing to do with race, can we expect a commitment from Brian Padddick to increase the year-on-year number of white people shot to a proportionate level? I think not.

 

[mobymonster]

Apparantly, it's also tough shit if you commit the perfectly innocent task of walking down the street while carrying a table leg or even sleeping naked in your bed at home, 'cos you still end up dead.

I haven't said that have I.

mobymonster

 

[Derek]

If all police killings are accidents then obviously there is something very wrong with police firearms training which needs to be put right. A lot of police oppression is deliberate though for exmple the way certain demonstrations are handled is way over the top and aggresive.

 

[drfranni]

I've been professionally involved with a couple of deaths in police custody and it has been my impression that the police are absolutely terrified of this - it represents an total "worst case scenario" for them. Their actions are not always sensible and they do sometimes take bad decisions and are not immune to the temptation to "adjust" records - human beings, every last one of them. But the events leading up to the deaths which I have seen have always been a series of cock ups, rather than brutality or deliberate badness.

I don't suggest that this makes them acceptable, merely that young and inexperienced officers often find themselves in incredibly difficult and complex situations which get out of hand before wiser heads can intervene

 

[hatboy]

Dr Franni - yeah anyone with any sense and experience of people knows racism can go on between, well, anyone really. What made me laugh about your post however was the idea of you sitting around with all your "vaguely Caribbean" mates slagging off Africans. Don't you have any vaguely non-racist, vaguely Caribbean friends?

Seperate point: This thread has degenerated to a pretty dumb level in my opinion.

 

[drfranni]

Hmm - well, I'm sorry that I am being so dumb.

Actually, my point was that racism may be endemic but is not longer seen as "acceptable" in some social groups whilst it is alive and well in others. And if you attempt to put a contrary view you are told to shut up as this is a matter you could not possibly understand, due to your skin colour. I disagree, I think racism does not require very profound "understanding"

 

[ColinTheCopper]

The thread need to degrenerate to a dumb level.... So I can understand it.

"The police took the lighter out of his pocket"

I really hope you don't believe that. Cant you see the facts for what they are without being twisted by your own hatred... Well I suppose it's better then saying the officer took it out of his own pocket.

 

[hatboy]

Dr Franni - your comments made me laugh. What I thought was really dumb was other stuff. I said "separate" above but maybe it wasn't clear.

Colin - I, for one, am sceptical that the lighter was removed from Derek Bennett's pocket and placed beside him (tho open to the idea that it is possible). He shouldn't have ended up dead tho should he? The Police should have other non-fatal technologies for incapacitating people. There is the gun that fires a small bean-bag for instance. This may sound silly, but in fact delivers a punch hard enough to put you on the ground in a dazed state but it does not kill.

 

[Derek]

The worst police force in Britain is the RUC now renamed the Northern Ireland Police Serivce, this force is definitely racist against the catholic minortiy as it is 90 per cent protestant and has a long history of brutality towards the catholic minority in Ulster. A couple of years a go a catholic man was kicked to death by a loyalist gang after leaving a club while an RUC landrover was only yards yet the RUC men inside did notthing to help the man, despite passers by banging on the vehicle and shouting for them to help.

 

[mobymonster]

There is the gun that fires a small bean-bag for instance. This may sound silly, but in fact delivers a punch hard enough to put you on the ground in a dazed state but it does not kill.

nor does it always work, there are incidents of people being hit many times and not being affected enough to drop the wpn.

mobymonster

 

[ColinTheCopper]

Hattie,

I'd be happy to carry a bean bag gun, as long as all the wannabe ganstas carry then instead of the real ones....

 

[hatboy]

Moby and Colin - you've missed the point. The point is that non-killing devices offer alternatives for incapacitating people. I'm not saying the Police don't need conventional guns. I'm saying there are many occasions when something else could be used instead... and lives would be saved.

I am aware that the bean bag gun doesn't always work. It's just an example. I beleive there are other alternatives to guns too. Surely they should at least be looked into.

And Colin - Derek Bennett was not a gangster, he was a traffic warden.

 

[ColinTheCopper]

Tell that to the bloke he took hostage on the Angel town and held a gun to his head when confronted by police....

Do you think the bloke thought... Oh it's okay, this geezers a traffic warden and that thing he's holding to my head, that looks like a gun, will only mildly scorch my temple if he pulls the trigger....

[ 01 January 2002: Message edited by: ColinTheCopper ]

 

[J-Bob]

It was a particularly realistic fake gun too (handle taped up, fingerprints etc). I'm not saying he neccessarily deserved what he got, but you go around waving a realistic looking weopon anywhere (and particularily an area with a prevalent gun culture like Brixton) and take a hostage...well what do you expect ? What would have happened if it had been a real gun, he had killed the hostage and the police had done nothing to protect that citizen ?

For some reason, I almost feel they'd have been less of an outcry.

[ 02 January 2002: Message edited by: J-B ]

 

[TopCat2]

sorry folks I have been away for a bit but please let me explain my much earlier post..

If you are going to go on a march described above then why bring the kids? It seems inapropriate in my opinion to take your children on a do that may well kick off...

further i feel that the police are going to feel threatened by such a march and will overreact if any bother occours..Consequently when the march rerouted to brixton police station it is naive in my opinion to expect the police to let you get there without a fight..So if you are going to go for it then perhaps leave the kids at home, get masked and tooled up and do all you can to win...looting in br9ixton town centre is a bit of a waste..and a distraction...

Happy new Year to you all..(except Colin...you go fuck yourself you pig cunt..)

 

[GaryJenkins]

Steelgate

Just to provide a bit of balance, one of the reasons why NIPS/RUC is 90% protestant is that catholic extremists were likely to kill catholic police and intimidate their families, unsurprisingly it made people living in Catholic areas think twice before joining. Mind you the IRA scumbags were pretty non-sectarian in deciding who to murder - around 300 police killed in 30 years.

 

[Brian]

Well, well, well (or should it be hello, hello, hello, what's all this 'ere then?)

We really thought that the MFJ march was going to be hijacked like the last one and end up with loads of shops trashed. We did not attack anyone - we just kept them from going back to the town centre because we did not want any trouble. No windows went in either - well none that were reported to us anyway.

On the reason for the march, I deeply, deeply regret that anyone should lose their life. No matter what the circumstances, no one deserves that. OK stun guns might be OK (like if the other guy has a knife) but not when the other guy has a gun. I do not know why Alex lost his job. I know nothing about that.

I can understand the real concern and suspicion all this stuff churns up with the police. I try to build confidence and reassurance and this stuff just undermines it all. There are no winners here.

If you think its useful me participating OK but if you think I'm invading your space I'll butt out!

 

[johnwisehammer]

That's funny, you would expect an Oxford graduate to have better spelling/ punctuation/ grammar skills and to be more articulate than that.

 

[freethepeeps]

Lets suppose that you really are a copper, and taking into account that your writing style is a little less jarring than Colin the coppers, and that your attitude to the local populace appears a little less harsh than his, why would you want to be on these boards? You accept that your presence might be unwelcome! And maybe you understand the reasons for that! And yet you still post, so what is it about?

Is this some kind of exercise in "public consultation" ? Are you claiming the time for this as work? Are you responding as a copper or a human being? How do you view this board?Are we some kind of guinea-pigs for you?

Perhaps if you answered some of these questions, it would help us to evaluate whether we want to engage with you or not!

We really thought that the MFJ march was going to be hijacked like the last one and end up with loads of shops trashed. We did not attack anyone - we just kept them from going back to the town centre because we did not want any trouble.

We thought he might have a gun, so we shot him!

We thought he was ugly, so we kicked him and beat him up!

We thought he was a waste of space, so we smashed his head against the cell wall!

Its all so handy for coppers at the moment isnt it. They just have to "think" something might happen, and that allows them to pen people in and to deprive them of their rights and liberty for as long as they "think" it is necessary! Well, there was nothing expected for that march! And those who were involved are not likely to have improved their feelings about the police whilst the bully boys strutted their stuff on the pretence that some copper "thought" something might happen. Ihello

If you are now into the business of stopping crime before it happens, I guess we can look forward to a copper on every street corner in Brixton, can we. Including all the spots where people are regularly attacked! And where houses are regularly burgled. And where crack is openly sold on the streets!

Or is just demonstrators that really concern you at the moment. Are you out to stop crime or just to crush dissent?