Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[sleaterkinney]

I'm in that group (and very familiar with Franciscan Rd) and there are people from all walks of life in there, including me. The woman who made that video is a local working mum. Don't believe whatever nasty lies and rumours are being spread, it's most certainly not right wing, there are cyclists in there, there are lots of women there and whenever someone starts ranting against any road user there's an outcry. We are united not divided and everyone should have a say on how the roads work. Workers who drive for a living are having to work longer hours without extra pay and spending an average 90 minutes a day longer at work, due to to traffic. The outcry was so strong that council has decided to suspend them for now and apparently local roads will be reopened. If you haven't been in the group then your impression of it may not be accurate at all and it's probably clouded by prejudice and lies. There are 3.7k people in that group.

Most people want the same thing: safer roads for ALL, less pollution for ALL (not just a few lucky streets, usually where rich people live) and freedom of movement for ALL, including those who need to drive for a living and those who can't use other modes of transport. The LTNs in Tooting achieved NONE of that. Changes that work for everyone should subsidisation of low emission vehicles (they are too expensive!), more charge points, more one way streets, 20mph on all streets (Wandsworth still has a few 30mph roads), fixing potholes so cyclists can cycle without fear of falling, better, greener and cheaper public transport.

Low Traffic Neighbourhood trials suspended - Wandsworth Borough Council

wandsworth.gov.uk

ANOTHER THING TO NOTE 0Wansworth is a fake account (with zero in front), the real one is 0Wandsworth (with an O). It's astonishing someone had the time to set one up and spent the last 3 weeks spreading misinformation about the original group. And also really quite sad. Too much time on their hands.

Now, if you're not going to take the word of someone who's been here for over 15 years and is most defo as far from the right as one can be, then I don't know whose word you'll take!

The thing is lots of those groups have appeared OneDulwich, OneRailton etc all with swish websites, twitter accounts etc but no details on who is truly behind them. The right have traditionally been against things done to curb pollution or deal with climate change or just come in through plain nimbyism.

Maybe the LTNs in Tooting were badly designed, and need to be tweaked, but it's not cause LTNs are a bad idea themselves, They exist already all over London.

Traffic, even when it's flowing freely is kicking off pollution and that was a problem in London before COVID. People will be anxious about getting on Public transport now - the answer can't be to go to cars and add more pollution on top of what was there already.

 

[Jesterburger]

Yes the Irish model looks interesting.

If the Council had set up a Citizen's Assembly on road use on the Irish model the present situation might have been avoided.

Instead the Council used pandemic to implement these changes to roads without proper consultation.

Leading to division and resentment.

The Irish model of Citizen Assembly was thorough and well organized.

Lambeth could learn something from this.

I think Citizens' Assemblies are a great model for recommending an approach to complex issues, and get round some of the problem with traditional consultations - the problem is of course that they are more complex to organise and more expensive. It would be nice to see the council at least explore the idea in future, as it helps as a consensus builder.

 

[co-op]

Update:

New survey claims ‘huge support’ for Railton Low Traffic Neighbourhood

Rarely has a local issue proved as divisive and as controversial as Lambeth’s Low Traffic Neighbourhood (LTN) scheme, which has seen borough-wide road closures implemented in an attempt to re…

www.brixtonbuzz.com

Surprise. Car drivers are vociferous and very very vocal but they are a minority in places like Lambeth and everyone else loses out big time as a result of them. I remember 10 years ago some dickhead of a Labour councillor telling me that Lambeth Labour (who had just won I think 59 out of 63 seats, ie had carte blanche) that they "couldn't" introduce a borough wide 20mph speed limit because it'd be "too unpopular" so we started a bit of local campaigning, door knocking etc and it was 4,5,6 to 1 in favour on the doorstep. Needless to say most Lambeth labour councillors drive everywhere themselves - or certainly all the only ones I ever saw did. I'll give Nigel Hasleden a pass here, I've actually seen him on a bike.

 

[girasol]

The thing is lots of those groups have appeared OneDulwich, OneRailton etc all with swish websites, twitter accounts etc but no details on who is truly behind them. The right have traditionally been against things done to curb pollution or deal with climate change or just come in through plain nimbyism.

Maybe the LTNs in Tooting were badly designed, and need to be tweaked, but it's not cause LTNs are a bad idea themselves, They exist already all over London.

Traffic, even when it's flowing freely is kicking off pollution and that was a problem in London before COVID. People will be anxious about getting on Public transport now - the answer can't be to go to cars and add more pollution on top of what was there already.

This is just one example of what people are going through - how is that ok? The vast majority of driving done in London during the week days are already essential, be it for health or work reasons. So I'm not sure FORCING people off their vehicles is actually fair.

"After being stuck indoors because of the restrictions I had to suffer it at the weekend to make an essential journey from tooting to earlsfield to collect medication as I am not a well person on a daily basis the hysteria, aggression and absolute chaos caused me a great deal of stress and heightened my anxiety symptoms and has me terrified to get in the car to get my essentials. I made an online order to get some supplies that was meant to arrive yesterday between 12 and 1. The driver finally arrived at 2.20 really stressed and upset. He has a 9 hour shift with a quota of 5 deliveries an hour he was already 2.5 hours behind. I gave him a drink and a had a chat while he was unloading. These restrictions have caused him such stress and worry and it's just not fair. I now have to go and pick up yet more medication that is essential but wasnt available at the weekend and I'm already stressing and worrying about having to make the journey and wondering where I'm gonna be able to park and how far from my destination. I don't think the powers that be have any idea the negative side effects of these changes. I dont think I can take much more and am worried that I'm going to become a forced recluse."

As for the group's origin, it's really not hard to set these things up, once one started, obviously it was used as a template for the ones that followed, purely because it saves time and also from a branding perspective... I mean what is the alternative? Someone is controlling all the groups? To destroy the planet by stopping LTNs? I can knock a video or website together and it's really not that hard. It just needs someone with a bit of time on their hands, and let's face it, there's a lot of tech people on furlough right now.

 

[Jesterburger]

New survey claims ‘huge support’ for Railton Low Traffic Neighbourhood

Rarely has a local issue proved as divisive and as controversial as Lambeth’s Low Traffic Neighbourhood (LTN) scheme, which has seen borough-wide road closures implemented in an attempt to re…

www.brixtonbuzz.com

That seems like a well produced report. Obviously the sample was self-selecting but it's good to see that the support is generally high, with support for some tweaks, and only 23% fully opposed.

Some of the critical campaigns are confidently stating the majority oppose these schemes, whereas this suggests it is around a quarter.

 

[sleaterkinney]

This is just one example of what people are going through - how is that ok? The vast majority of driving done in London during the week days are already essential, be it for health or work reasons. So I'm not sure FORCING people off their vehicles is actually fair.

"After being stuck indoors because of the restrictions I had to suffer it at the weekend to make an essential journey from tooting to earlsfield to collect medication as I am not a well person on a daily basis the hysteria, aggression and absolute chaos caused me a great deal of stress and heightened my anxiety symptoms and has me terrified to get in the car to get my essentials. I made an online order to get some supplies that was meant to arrive yesterday between 12 and 1. The driver finally arrived at 2.20 really stressed and upset. He has a 9 hour shift with a quota of 5 deliveries an hour he was already 2.5 hours behind. I gave him a drink and a had a chat while he was unloading. These restrictions have caused him such stress and worry and it's just not fair. I now have to go and pick up yet more medication that is essential but wasnt available at the weekend and I'm already stressing and worrying about having to make the journey and wondering where I'm gonna be able to park and how far from my destination. I don't think the powers that be have any idea the negative side effects of these changes. I dont think I can take much more and am worried that I'm going to become a forced recluse."

As for the group's origin, it's really not hard to set these things up, once one started, obviously it was used as a template for the ones that followed, purely because it saves time and also from a branding perspective... I mean what is the alternative? Someone is controlling all the groups? To destroy the planet by stopping LTNs? I can knock a video or website together and it's really not that hard. It just needs someone with a bit of time on their hands, and let's face it, there's a lot of tech people on furlough right now.

Like I said previously on this thread and I have written to my councillor about it, I do think blue badge holders should be able to go through the filters, don’t have a problem with that at all.

I do honestly think someone has paid for an agency to set these up, it 100% looks like an astroturfing effort, and yeah there are parts of the motoring lobby like that.

 

[Winot]

There is history of astroturfing in relation to the cycle superhighways. The Canary Wharf property group (iirc) set up and funded a group to oppose them. The CEO was annoyed that his chauffeur was held up driving him from Knightsbridge to Canary Wharf. So it’s been done before.

 

[teuchter]

In the end most people wanted to keep politics and political campaigning out and just remove the blocks and start again, from a more reasonable starting point rather than the "sledgehammer to crack a nut" approach they took.

I genuinely hope you can quote this back at me in a few months and prove me wrong: but I bet you, there will be absolutely no "starting again" of a real effort in that group to change anything meaningful - the group will fizzle out as soon as the danger of anything meaningful happening has passed. No one will come up with any magic solutions that allow you to reduce traffic and pollution without upsetting some people. The voices making a lot of noise about how they really do want things to change, just not quite like this - they will disappear. The people, whoever they are, investing lots of time making well produced propaganda videos anti the LTNs will not move on to making well produced videos persuading people to make changes to their transport habits. Either the council will manage to re-instate something smaller within the next couple of months, which might manage to be "better than nothing" or things will just stay as they are for another ten or twenty years and a load more people will suffer ill health from pollution related stuff and you'll continue with crappy, congested, noisy streets that are unwelcoming to pedestrians and cyclists. In fact it looks depressingly likely that things are just going to get worse and worse post covid, anywhere that doesn't manage to make some big changes right now.

 

[Loose meat]

Wandsworth have caved in:

 

[co-op]

This is just one example of what people are going through - how is that ok? The vast majority of driving done in London during the week days are already essential, be it for health or work reasons. So I'm not sure FORCING people off their vehicles is actually fair.

No the vast majority of driving is discretionary which is why it goes down when capacity goes down and goes up when capacity goes up. But you can increase capacity as much as you like and you will never get rid of jams, nor stressed out drivers. We know this because we tried increasing capacity to meet predicted needs for 60 or 70 years and it failed again and again, everywhere. It just created more car-dependent people, jobs, roles etc.

Capacity in general now is hugely reduced from 10 or 20 years ago; Wandsworth Rd, Camberwell Rd, Brixton Hill, all used to be 4 lane roads, and without bus lanes. Do you honestly think that if we put motorways down Coldharbour Lane or South Lambeth Rd (which was originally the plan in the 1960s, before widespread anti-road protests stopped them) - that this would mean that people would now be swooping from Brixton to Vauxhall in minutes, or that air pollution would go down? It really is literally unbelievable isn't it?

 

[Loose meat]

Wandsworth made me laugh out loud a couple of weeks ago:

It was so epic.

 

[Gramsci]

There is history of astroturfing in relation to the cycle superhighways. The Canary Wharf property group (iirc) set up and funded a group to oppose them. The CEO was annoyed that his chauffeur was held up driving him from Knightsbridge to Canary Wharf. So it’s been done before.

So what group is funding the anti LTN campaigns?

 

[Gramsci]

I'm in that group (and very familiar with Franciscan Rd) and there are people from all walks of life in there, including me. The woman who made that video is a local working mum. Don't believe whatever nasty lies and rumours are being spread, it's most certainly not right wing, there are cyclists in there, there are lots of women there and whenever someone starts ranting against any road user there's an outcry. We are united not divided and everyone should have a say on how the roads work. Workers who drive for a living are having to work longer hours without extra pay and spending an average 90 minutes a day longer at work, due to to traffic. The outcry was so strong that council has decided to suspend them for now and apparently local roads will be reopened. If you haven't been in the group then your impression of it may not be accurate at all and it's probably clouded by prejudice and lies. There are 3.7k people in that group.

Most people want the same thing: safer roads for ALL, less pollution for ALL (not just a few lucky streets, usually where rich people live) and freedom of movement for ALL, including those who need to drive for a living and those who can't use other modes of transport. The LTNs in Tooting achieved NONE of that. Changes that work for everyone should look into subsidisation of low emission vehicles (they are too expensive!), more charge points, more one way streets, 20mph on all streets (Wandsworth still has a few 30mph roads), fixing potholes so cyclists can cycle without fear of falling, better, greener and cheaper public transport.

Low Traffic Neighbourhood trials suspended - Wandsworth Borough Council

wandsworth.gov.uk

ANOTHER THING TO NOTE 0Wansworth is a fake account (with zero in front), the real one is 0Wandsworth (with an O). It's astonishing someone had the time to set one up and spent the last 3 weeks spreading misinformation about the original group. And also really quite sad. Too much time on their hands.

Now, if you're not going to take the word of someone who's been here for over 15 years and is most defo as far from the right as one can be, then I don't know whose word you'll take!

Actuallly Im the only one here who has not been arguing that those who are anti LTN aren't just being used by shadowy right wing groups. That people can't think for themselves and are willing fools to be manipulated by the right is not something I agree with.

If one goes back to the earlier part of this thread you will find posters like Winot , who has been posting that opposition to LTN is being bankrolled by the Right, was quite happy to see these schemes imposed on communities without consultation. As consultation just held what they wanted up. No great interest in local democracy from that quarter. Yet quite happy to go on about the "right".

Ive also been saying that proper consultation should have been done. As Lambeth promised, pre Covid, when Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood idea was first started.

Im as I keep saying am supportive of some of the LTN ideas. Ive tried to be balanced to see both sides.

If the Council had put in the political work to get support for changes to roads I would be more supportive.

i really object to way Council are relishing their new found power during the pandemic.

 

[Loose meat]

Hang on, so the people who wants a transparent democratic process including consultation are frothing right wing nut jobs, or are manipulated by them.

The peole who want LTNs are perfectly sensible, rational types who do know what's best for everyone.

Is that a summary of today in U75 world?

 

[sleaterkinney]

Probably one of the existing ones...

 

[sleaterkinney]

Tbh the government and local authorities are not doing enough about the pandemic...

 

[girasol]

Actuallly Im the only one here who has not been arguing that those who are anti LTN aren't just being used by shadowy right wing groups. That people can't think for themselves and are willing fools to be manipulated by the right is not something I agree with.

If one goes back to the earlier part of this thread you will find posters like Winot , who has been posting that opposition to LTN is being bankrolled by the Right, was quite happy to see these schemes imposed on communities without consultation. As consultation just held what they wanted up. No great interest in local democracy from that quarter. Yet quite happy to go on about the "right".

Ive also been saying that proper consultation should have been done. As Lambeth promised, pre Covid, when Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood idea was first started.

Im as I keep saying am supportive of some of the LTN ideas. Ive tried to be balanced to see both sides.

If the Council had put in the political work to get support for changes to roads I would be more supportive.

i really object to way Council are relishing their new found power during the pandemic.

I can't be bothered with this internet willy waving to be honest with you. Life is too short, I know who I am, I know I haven't been manipulated by anyone (how patronising to think people are that stupid). I know what the group I was in was trying to achieve and I know a lot of people who support LTNs don't realise the real impact this has had on working people - but all they have to do is take the time to speak to delivery drivers, tradespeople, binmen, paramedics, firemen, care workers, health workers, blue badge holders, parents of special needs children, elderly, infirm, local shop owners and yes, even the police... the list is long. Just listen to what people have been saying about the negative impact it has had in many areas of London. And now even getting on a bus is a challenge, they are not only full a lot of the time but they are also stuck in traffic. Even cyclists are suffering with the increase in pollution, I know I did when I cycled to from Tooting to Fulham this week during the evening rush hour. The air on Wandsworth Bridge and Wandsworth Bridge Rd. was absolutely disgusting.

Many people who support LTNs are working from home and/or can cycle. They might also have the luxury of having time to take longer journeys on foot. Anyway, I'm out of this thread I think. I posted in here, about Wandsworth, as I thought it might be useful. Hope it was. I also go to Lambeth a lot, by bike, by public transport and also by car - as a woman, I don't feel safe cycling at night, so I drive sometimes. Cars give me freedom and safety. Stopping cars isn't the solution, but rather, making them zero emission is the future - I've been dreaming about the solar/electric car for years, as the panels get lighter, I hope they will be a reality sooner rather than later.

 

[Gramsci]

New survey claims ‘huge support’ for Railton Low Traffic Neighbourhood

Rarely has a local issue proved as divisive and as controversial as Lambeth’s Low Traffic Neighbourhood (LTN) scheme, which has seen borough-wide road closures implemented in an attempt to re…

www.brixtonbuzz.com

Considering posters here have been criticising oppositon to LTN as being funded by shadowy right wing groups Im surprised that no one has wondered where the funding comes form for this pro LTN survey.

It clear from the info that its been done by people who are pro the Railton LTN.

Does not necessarily invalidate it.

Just seems to me this questioning of groups for and against seems partisan to me.

 

[teuchter]

Cars give me freedom and safety. Stopping cars isn't the solution, but rather, making them zero emission is the future

If this is your position then it's not surprising that you're part of an anti LTN group.

Your solution for the future simply doesn't work in London, unfortunately.

 

[Gramsci]

Anti LTN protest outside Town Hall

 

[Gramsci]

 

[girasol]

Protest in Tooting was very good natured! Ambulance drivers, bus drivers all tooting horns in support. Even the police was waving...

 

[Gramsci]

At the anti LTN( outside the Town Hall )demo a lot of local people Including a good percentage of local Black people.

So I don't think the anti LTN protests can be categorised as being pushed by "racist" Cabbies, the "right" or EDL supporters.

 

[Gramsci]

At the Town Hall demo speakers included local business and local people.

Ferndale road seems to be issue. The speaker said the Ferndale road LTN had caused extra traffic on Ferndale Road.

 

[CH1]

So what group is funding the anti LTN campaigns?

Excuse if I'm repeating old info - this thread is so vibrant I can't read all of it.
This One.... is not just local - they have OneLevenshulme -Manchester - and OneKingsheath - Birmingham offered as things to subscribe to on Twitter.
So I think its is quite possible no-one is funding it, Its just a sort of spontaneous Twitter enhanced citizens outrage with tea cakes.
I'm saying that because the essential model of discontent is surely the Gillet Jaunes in France,
Except that the Gillet Jaunes throw half bricks and get tear gassed, the One movements are so far exerting pressure on unpopular details of the measures the government and councils have introduced using emergency powers. They don't yet seem to have even done any direct action.

 

[Gramsci]

Excuse if I'm repeating old info - this thread is so vibrant I can't read all of it.
This One.... is not just local - they have OneLevenshulme -Manchester - and OneKingsheath - Birmingham offered as things to subscribe to on Twitter.
So I think its is quite possible no-one is funding it, Its just a sort of spontaneous Twitter enhanced citizens outrage with tea cakes.
I'm saying that because the essential model of discontent is surely the Gillet Jaunes in France,
Except that the Gillet Jaunes throw half bricks and get tear gassed, the One movements are so far exerting pressure on unpopular details of the measures the government and councils have introduced using emergency powers. They don't yet seem to have even done any direct action.

I agree with your analysis.

From what I saw today this opposition comes from pissed off local people who feel that Council / Shapps have imposed this on them with no consultation.

Its not simple Left /Right thing that some posters here are trying to make out.

The atmosphere at demo is that its "them" doing what they want using pandemic as excuse.

As this is Lambeth Council they are talking about I sympathise with how they feel.

Even though I think LTNs are worth a go.

The Council has implemented it with its usual contempt for the those they have power over.

 

[teuchter]

It's hard to tell from the photos but it looks like another rather small gathering at the protest.

 

[Loose meat]

As opposed to the massive rally in support of LTNs?

What do we want: More unearned wealth!

 

[teuchter]

The rallies in favour of mask-wearing or general covid related public health measures also have not been very massive.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I agree with your analysis.

From what I saw today this opposition comes from pissed off local people who feel that Council / Shapps have imposed this on them with no consultation.

Its not simple Left /Right thing that some posters here are trying to make out.

The atmosphere at demo is that its "them" doing what they want using pandemic as excuse.

As this is Lambeth Council they are talking about I sympathise with how they feel.

Even though I think LTNs are worth a go.

The Council has implemented it with its usual contempt for the those they have power over.

The pandemic is not an excuse, it’s a reason. We weren’t consulted over pavement widening or masks either - some people ignore those too.