Loose meat
Well-Known Member
Well that's that then. The Sharp Elbows have judged the merits. How easy the judgements come.
Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists
- Thread starter teuchter
- Start date
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
once again you've put a poor attempt at an insult above making any sense whatsoever.
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
It's an observation of a statement. If you want to be insulted I can probably help you out.
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
I walked down Coldharbour Lane from the Domino Club as far as the Satay Bar at 4.40 this afternoon.
The road was chocca. An ambulance was trying to get through - same direction East to West - and was only able to move at my walking pace, despite lights flashing and siren going.
I think Gramsci mentioned here or on another thread that CHL is getting very congested.
I have to agree. It was ridiculous late this afternoon.
Didn't stop a massive 40 tonne Palm Oil lorry parking up outside Brixton Village/The Laundry however. Very environmental Palm oil.
Someone at the council needs to look at whether the Railton LTN in conjunction with the ?temporary? closure of Atlantic Road is actually causing a traffic-led biohazard to ambulance customers - who could have been knifed, or dying of a heart attack.
The road was chocca. An ambulance was trying to get through - same direction East to West - and was only able to move at my walking pace, despite lights flashing and siren going.
I think Gramsci mentioned here or on another thread that CHL is getting very congested.
I have to agree. It was ridiculous late this afternoon.
Didn't stop a massive 40 tonne Palm Oil lorry parking up outside Brixton Village/The Laundry however. Very environmental Palm oil.
Someone at the council needs to look at whether the Railton LTN in conjunction with the ?temporary? closure of Atlantic Road is actually causing a traffic-led biohazard to ambulance customers - who could have been knifed, or dying of a heart attack.
ash
Inittogether
Living in the Ferndale area the main opponents to the scheme seem to be those who want it to take 5 mins to drive to Tesco’s on Acre Lane rather than the 15 mins it now takes.
Ferndale Rd was chaos the first few weeks but has calmed down now and I imagine it will get quieter still as the scene embeds. Too may people see driving as a privilege. At least two of my neighbours - young people are never seen walking any further than their car!!
Ferndale Rd was chaos the first few weeks but has calmed down now and I imagine it will get quieter still as the scene embeds. Too may people see driving as a privilege. At least two of my neighbours - young people are never seen walking any further than their car!!
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Nope, it's you that don't get it. The evidence is that people drive to a time - increase the time and eventually they shift mode or don't make the journey. So yes, there's always a temporary increase in jams, and then they get back to normal as people stop making that journey. There's some evidence for that on this very thread.
This is why, no matter how many roads you build, how many extra lanes you put in, no matter how many fences you stick up to stop pedestrians crossing roads etc etc traffic jams never go away. All that happens is that into the - temporary - increase in capacity you get a load more journeys being made.
Do you think we should resurrect the plan to build a 4 lane motorway down Coldharbour Lane? Or a 4 lane motorway down South Lambeth Rd? These were serious plans - look at the footprint of all the adjacent council housing on these roads, they were built with 4 lane motorways as part of the plan. Do you seriously think this would have reduced journey times from Brixton to Vauxhall? Or - most laughably - that they would have improved air quality? The answers are bloody obvious, in case you can't get there on your own, they are "no" and "no".
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
A modal shift in residential property values, is about the size of it.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
LOL. Like that hasn't been the story of the last 40 years in Lambeth and won't continue to be, and like it has anything to do with cars.
The point again I was trying to make again was that we are absolutely prepared to change how we get to work or indeed other journeys by car which is what the LTNs are trying to achieve. However I was reporting that traffic delays have accelerated (no pun) that change. I don’t drive myself, only cycle, walk or public transport. I am proud to say I live in the brixton co-op and we have a number of properties on Railton so benefit directly from this scheme but not because house prices might increase
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I don't quite understand this. This initiative is coming from central Government. Councils Tory or Labour are using Government money to do these schemes.
So its not a left right issue.
Some grassroots Tories may be involved in anti LTN groups. Some Labour party members I know are active supporting LTNs.
Imo its perfectly legitimate for local political experienced activists of left or right to organise in their own areas.
If grass roots Tories are supporting anti LTN groups then its against a Boris led government.
Not sure what you are saying. Are saying the same Tory government that is putting money into this is also funding anti LTN groups?
I know Shapps is now saying some Councils are "abusing" the money that governnment has put forward for these schemes. But its still Tory government policy. To get people walking and cycling. He is reacting to the oppostion that has sprung up. Is Shapps playing two sides? Promoting this and trying to undemine it? Does not make sense to me.
Im not being emotional btw. Im neither enthusiastic supporter or hard line against. I do think proper consultation should have been done. And that Pandemic should not have been used as excuse to do these schemes.
What I do see is hardening of both sides. This happened in LJ. The campaign was started by pissed off Council tenants. Once public meetings were held the car nuts turned up.
Their were locals who wanted some traffic calming/ rat run closures. But not the whole road closure thing. This got lost as the two hard line factions got involved.
The anti car make them walk brigade versus why cant I drive my car where I want Brigade its my human right.
There was imo a possibility of a local consensus on dealing with through traffic. That got lost due to Council not talking to local people properly.
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sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
Even if traffic is flowing freely down residential streets it’s creating pollution. Brixton had bad air long before LTNs.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Nope, it's you that don't get it. The evidence is that people drive to a time - increase the time and eventually they shift mode or don't make the journey. So yes, there's always a temporary increase in jams, and then they get back to normal as people stop making that journey. There's some evidence for that on this very thread.
This is why, no matter how many roads you build, how many extra lanes you put in, no matter how many fences you stick up to stop pedestrians crossing roads etc etc traffic jams never go away. All that happens is that into the - temporary - increase in capacity you get a load more journeys being made.
Do you think we should resurrect the plan to build a 4 lane motorway down Coldharbour Lane? Or a 4 lane motorway down South Lambeth Rd? These were serious plans - look at the footprint of all the adjacent council housing on these roads, they were built with 4 lane motorways as part of the plan. Do you seriously think this would have reduced journey times from Brixton to Vauxhall? Or - most laughably - that they would have improved air quality? The answers are bloody obvious, in case you can't get there on your own, they are "no" and "no".
Thing is a lot of people dont own cars. They do use cabs/ Depend on deliveries.
During lockdown my partner made more use of online deliveries. As this was safer.
Going around West End today and most traffic I saw was Cabs/ Builders/Delivery vehicles.
Not private cars. The assumption around LTNs is that this is about selfish car owners who go down the shops
My experience of being on the road all day is that is not the case.
My van /motorcycle delivery friends are getting extra time on deliveries and they aren't being paid for that time. You get paid per drop.
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
Bingo. A central Gov Tory policy dreampt up in Downing St, funded by the Treasuary through the DTI, enforced without consultaion has ... a significant effect on residential propery values. Crazy days.
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sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
Grant Shapps warns councils to make roads more accessible for everyone | SWLondoner
More than 130 community groups released a joint statement last week in support of the introduction of Low Traffic Neighbourhood
www.swlondoner.co.uk
Oval Triangle resident Francois Jardin, general manager of the Fentiman Arms pub, believes his quality of life has improved significantly with the reduction of noise pollution in particular.
Mr Jardin has also seen a positive impact socially with the LTN. He said: “I think the community forgot about the fact that they live next to each other and I think that is the impact that, socially speaking, is very beneficial.”
However, Mr Shapps acknowledged that when done well, the emergency measures have proved hugely popular with the ‘silent majority’.
“Millions of people, the vast majority of them non-cyclists, have already benefited from measures to reduce rat-running through narrow residential streets, cut danger to children around schools, make walking easier and provide safe space for cycling on main roads,” he wrote.
Probably the only thing I would agree with Shapps on.
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
I lose track slightly; is the new definition of 'rat-running' any journey that doesn't take place on an A or B road?
sparkybird
ask the bird...
Jesterburger
Well-Known Member
I asked to join One Lambeth and was honest about being a supporter but wanted to understand arguments from both sides, not to argue. But they turned me down, so I think any discussion there will just be committed antis.
Jesterburger
Well-Known Member
A UK citizen's assembly, made up of people from all works of life, with a mix of ages, genders, ethnic backgrounds and education levels, but also a range of views about the climate crisis, has issued it's report today on how to deal with climate change
www.theguardian.com
One of their recommendations was reducing care usage by 2-5% per decade, and I do think that LTNs will help to play a role in this.
UK climate assembly: tax frequent flyers and ban SUVs as part of Covid recovery
Assembly made up of members of public says recovery should drive move to net zero carbon emissions
One of their recommendations was reducing care usage by 2-5% per decade, and I do think that LTNs will help to play a role in this.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Yes, the % of the standard private car as a proportion of all traffic is obviously dropping steadily but this is still not imo an argument against LTNs. Local van drop - last mile logistics - really should all be done by electric cycle van for all the usual reasons. LTNs make this far more likely and possible.
I do know about multi-drop driving as I've done a bit - I'm so old that I was a despatcher back in the 80s. It's a real problem as they are basically paid to drive like arseholes, and I speak as someone who probably did that. But the traffic has always been an issue for drop driving.
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
Bless.A UK citizen's assembly, made up of people from all works of life, with a mix of ages, genders, ethnic backgrounds and education levels, but also a range of views about the climate crisis, has issued it's report today on how to deal with climate change
UK climate assembly: tax frequent flyers and ban SUVs as part of Covid recovery
Assembly made up of members of public says recovery should drive move to net zero carbon emissions
One of their recommendations was reducing care usage by 2-5% per decade, and I do think that LTNs will help to play a role in this.
Are you being sarcastic because you don’t think climate change is real or object to people having suggestions about how to deal with it? At some point, humanity is going to have to deal with what is happening to our planet
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Grant Shapps warns councils to make roads more accessible for everyone | SWLondoner
More than 130 community groups released a joint statement last week in support of the introduction of Low Traffic Neighbourhood
Oval Triangle resident Francois Jardin, general manager of the Fentiman Arms pub, believes his quality of life has improved significantly with the reduction of noise pollution in particular.
Mr Jardin has also seen a positive impact socially with the LTN. He said: “I think the community forgot about the fact that they live next to each other and I think that is the impact that, socially speaking, is very beneficial.”
However, Mr Shapps acknowledged that when done well, the emergency measures have proved hugely popular with the ‘silent majority’.
“Millions of people, the vast majority of them non-cyclists, have already benefited from measures to reduce rat-running through narrow residential streets, cut danger to children around schools, make walking easier and provide safe space for cycling on main roads,” he wrote.
Probably the only thing I would agree with Shapps on.
In the article you posted Shapps also says:
The "silent majority" line of argument is typical right wing argument.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
A UK citizen's assembly, made up of people from all works of life, with a mix of ages, genders, ethnic backgrounds and education levels, but also a range of views about the climate crisis, has issued it's report today on how to deal with climate change
UK climate assembly: tax frequent flyers and ban SUVs as part of Covid recovery
Assembly made up of members of public says recovery should drive move to net zero carbon emissions
One of their recommendations was reducing care usage by 2-5% per decade, and I do think that LTNs will help to play a role in this.
How were the people chosen? Its not clear from the article. Unless I missed something.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I talk to van drivers on a regular basis.
As one said to me today before bringing in these schemes they should have talked to those who use roads to make a living.
Make a living and provide an essential service to people during the pandemic.
Now the worst of the pandemic is over they are no longer "key workers" so can be brushed aside.
If LTNs affect their capacity to make a living thats tough.
TBF I think that is shit way to treat Key workers.
They already have enough on their plate with ULEZ. Chatting to van driver today and he is going to buy new van. Gets help with scraping his old van. Its still a risk.
Lot of these guys feel neither government or companies really care if they are out of a job due to all this added expense/ difficulty getting around.
And they are doing a job that is needed.
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DJWrongspeed
radio eros
I've just had a leaflet throught my door about a LTN in our neighbourhood (Tulse Hill). We've had a leaflet that states, as well as residents "Visitors & deliveries are able to drive to you and park just like they do now"
I wonder is that different to other schemes. It seems fine by me.
The bottom line for me is
a) you could pay people to walk and cycle and they won't
b) Lambeth is one of London's most polluted boroughs
T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
I've posted a tongue-in-cheek observation on the following subject on another transport related thread, but I thought it might merit a more meaningful discussion ITT. Nobody is talking about the effects of LTNs on bus users from a London-wide perspective. The Railton Road LTN is the only one I can think of where bus journey times of the single bus route serving it will have either improved or remained the same. But on a great many other bus routes journey times have increased significantly.
There are scores of major through roads used by multiple bus routes that have no bus lanes. And whereas giving motor vehicles no other option but to use a given major road and the hell with how much more congested it has become might (eventually) result in a single-digit percentage reduction in car usage, the many buses caught in it are now experiencing horrendous conditions on a regular basis.
I have counted seven buses stuck in gridlock over a mere 300-metre stretch of road alone. Colleagues at work have reported their bus taking 45 min+ to clear just a mile of road going through a busy junction or on the approach to a bridge. That just isn't right or fair to them, however satisfying or a valid weapon against car use constant gridlock conditions might seem to some.
There are scores of major through roads used by multiple bus routes that have no bus lanes. And whereas giving motor vehicles no other option but to use a given major road and the hell with how much more congested it has become might (eventually) result in a single-digit percentage reduction in car usage, the many buses caught in it are now experiencing horrendous conditions on a regular basis.
I have counted seven buses stuck in gridlock over a mere 300-metre stretch of road alone. Colleagues at work have reported their bus taking 45 min+ to clear just a mile of road going through a busy junction or on the approach to a bridge. That just isn't right or fair to them, however satisfying or a valid weapon against car use constant gridlock conditions might seem to some.
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
Impressive production. Sharp Elbows won't be happy.
editor
hiraethified
Can you stop this 'sharp elbows' nonsense please.
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