Loose meat
Well-Known Member
Not keen on censorship.
Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists
- Thread starter teuchter
- Start date
“However, Mr Shapps acknowledged that when done well, the emergency measures have proved hugely popular with the ‘silent majority’.”
Yes, this statement literally says nothing !
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Looks like a strong sharp elbows effort to me.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
You make a big assumption that all this is caused by LTNs rather than lots of people currently avoiding public transport and driving instead. And the resumption of the school run.
There's not any way of knowing what would happen if all the LTNs were now removed (well, unless they get removed because all the councils lose their nerve), but it's entirely plausible that all the main roads would still be congested, loads of rat-run roads would also be full of traffic, it would be even less attractive for non-car-owning people to cycle and walk and there would be even more people trying to get on those buses which would still be stuck in the traffic caused by car drivers.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
There's a bit about the multiple bridge closures here by the way - decide for yourselves whether it's because there are actual structural problems, or the result of an anti-motor vehicle conspiracy.
www.nytimes.com
London’s Bridges Really Are Falling Down (Published 2020)
Three major crossings on the Thames are closed to cars — one of them considered too dangerous even to walk across. Even the landmark Tower Bridge was recently shut for two days.
T & P
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Well, I've travelled on Christchurch Road every single day for my daily commute for more than twenty years, and am very well versed with the average levels of congestion and instances of traffic jams out of a given week or month. And since the NIMBY-tastic Hillside LTN went live recently, Christchurch Rd has gone from Tulse Hill-to-Brixton-Hill bumper to bumper traffic once every 10- 14 days, to every single day so far, apart from a solitary morning in which the queue was slightly shorter, but still significant. That is simply not an amazing coincidence.
T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
So bad in the case of London Bridge that double decker buses chug along as merrily as before, along with taxis. Because buses are much, much lighter than private cars.There's a bit about the multiple bridge closures here by the way - decide for yourselves whether it's because there are actual structural problems, or the result of an anti-motor vehicle conspiracy.
London’s Bridges Really Are Falling Down (Published 2020)
Three major crossings on the Thames are closed to cars — one of them considered too dangerous even to walk across. Even the landmark Tower Bridge was recently shut for two days.
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
The article is entertaining - but points up the difference between fund-holding, construction and maintenance in London and Genoa. Mussolini made the trains run on time - and those services the UK government wishes to cut it delegates to local authorities who seek to avoid responsibility.There's a bit about the multiple bridge closures here by the way - decide for yourselves whether it's because there are actual structural problems, or the result of an anti-motor vehicle conspiracy.
London’s Bridges Really Are Falling Down (Published 2020)
Three major crossings on the Thames are closed to cars — one of them considered too dangerous even to walk across. Even the landmark Tower Bridge was recently shut for two days.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I expect they are a lot lighter, per person carried, which is why if there's a limited weight capacity, it makes sense.
But you'll be pleased that at least here buses are given priority, because of your concerns about bus passengers being delayed.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Which one is this?
editor
hiraethified
Sorry to be pedantic, but that's a myth!
T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
That has nothing to do with the issue of whether London Bridge is so critically weak it must close to private cars and it absolutely cannot wait until Vauxhall Bridge reopens in a few weeks.
If a bridge is in urgent need of structural/ remedial work, you close down all motorised traffic, including buses. See Battersea Bridge when a barge hit it some years ago, Albert Bridge when they did a thorough refurbishment of the structure, or Hammersmith Bridge at the moment.
You do not need to have a degree in engineering to just know that it is extraordinarily fucking unlikely both bridges asbolutely have to be closed suddenly and at the same exact time to motorsied traffic, while restricting traffic on Wandsworth Bridge to boot as an added fuck you to everyone not on a bicycle.
T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
The massive area between Christchurch Road and Streatham Hill.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Why?
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Ok, so it's only been in operation for 2 or 3 weeks.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Several business are saying takings are down due to the LTN. As they have lost passing trade. Couple of them say it has almost halved.
Whatever one might think of "One Wandsworth" I don't think these people would have wanted to be in the video if the LTN had improved business.
T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
Because if a bridge goes suddenly into allegedly essential repairs yet remains structurally safe and sound enough for an unrestricted amount of 15t vehicles to use it at the same time, there is no way those repairs couldn’t have waited just a few more weeks until another vital bridge also undergoing work reopened.
Either that, or the repairs take place now after all but private vehicles continue to be allowed on it. It is absurd to even entertain the notion it couldn’t be any other way.
Jesterburger
Well-Known Member
This article explains how the participants were chosen.
'Chuffed to be chosen': participants attend first UK climate assembly
Sir David Attenborough thanked the 110 people gathered in Birmingham for giving up their time
Done well, citizens' assemblies are a great model - they've used them formally in Ireland for example to tackle thorny issues: 'Transparency and fairness': Irish readers on why the Citizens' Assembly worked
Jesterburger
Well-Known Member
There are lots of things going on besides the LTNs - there are bridges closed and lots of roadworks, and overall traffic levels are higher than a year ago as more people return to work but shun public transport. I cycled to work yesterday for the first time and the roads the whole way seemed worse than my normal, pre-covid cycle. I'm not saying the LTNs aren't contributing but there are plenty of other unusual things going on too - the map in this article shows that there is congestion all over London not just in LTN areas
Rush hour traffic in London soars by 25% in a week
London journeys (pictured) were blighted by roadworks, full buses and new cycle schemes as the capital struggles to ramp up services for the increase in passengers.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
It seems that both of your preferred solutions are aimed at minimising inconvenience for private vehicles. You did start out on this claiming that it's your bus-using colleagues you are so terribly concerned about.
The solution that has been chosen allows buses to continue to flow across London Bridge at the same time as repairs are carried out. But you want to clog up that flow with a load of private vehicles, massively reducing the number of people who can use it to get across the river.
Southlondon
The river's there for a reason
There’s only so much a shopper can carry on a bike. I totally would like to see less cars but for a lot of disabled people, mums with young kids, people wanting to buy larger objects or arms full of clothes, a car can be pretty essential. If there’s nowhere to park and it becomes more arduous to drive through places then surely those shoppers are even more likely to head for the big shopping centres which cater for drivers. With increasing competition from the likes of Westfield where the choice is enormous and you don’t get wet or struggle crossing roads bags and turkeys in arms, and the unstoppable advance of the likes of Amazon, one of the only advantages I can think of for the small Local shopping roads Is speed and convenience. If you cut out car drivers you are bound to lose some much needed business and more unaffordable eateries like the ones that are infesting the covered market already will be the only places that can afford the rents.
. During the lockdown I built a wildlife pond to have something to do. For the first time I bought stuff from amazon and I have to say i was amazed at the convenience. For me to walk or bus to Brixton which is my closest proper high st just to shop with very limited choice or brave Oxford st when I can Look on my phone push a button and it turns up the next morning with piss easy returns it’s hard to make effort whereas when I had my car (which I got rid of about 15 years ago because I could never park near my flat despite paying for a permit), I would often nip out to Brixton or Wandsworth to buy stuff. That has become more arduous if I want things for my garden or diy etc so I probably buy less stuff which is good, but now I’ve spent a fortune without realising it and stuck money into the hands of a tax dodging billionaire rather than some of it going to local shops. Electric cars are prohibitively expensive as there is no 2nd hand market established yet so car driving is likely to become a reserve for the wealthy and the parent with small kids, disabled, and those Who need a car for work will be disadvantaged.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
So what's your solution - to make local neighbourhoods more like Westfield, so that they are convenient for car drivers? We'll need to knock down quite a few houses to widen roads and provide all the parking - is that ok?
Or we accept that online ordering with local delivery is a much better solution for getting large/bulky items to people. And then the smaller things can be bought locally - and probably more locally than before.
girasol
Addicted to handstands!
I'm in that group (and very familiar with Franciscan Rd) and there are people from all walks of life in there, including me. The woman who made that video is a local working mum. Don't believe whatever nasty lies and rumours are being spread, it's most certainly not right wing, there are cyclists in there, there are lots of women there and whenever someone starts ranting against any road user there's an outcry. We are united not divided and everyone should have a say on how the roads work. Workers who drive for a living are having to work longer hours without extra pay and spending an average 90 minutes a day longer at work, due to to traffic. The outcry was so strong that council has decided to suspend them for now and apparently local roads will be reopened. If you haven't been in the group then your impression of it may not be accurate at all and it's probably clouded by prejudice and lies. There are 3.7k people in that group.
Most people want the same thing: safer roads for ALL, less pollution for ALL (not just a few lucky streets, usually where rich people live) and freedom of movement for ALL, including those who need to drive for a living and those who can't use other modes of transport. The LTNs in Tooting achieved NONE of that. Changes that work for everyone should look into subsidisation of low emission vehicles (they are too expensive!), more charge points, more one way streets, 20mph on all streets (Wandsworth still has a few 30mph roads), fixing potholes so cyclists can cycle without fear of falling, better, greener and cheaper public transport.
Low Traffic Neighbourhood trials suspended - Wandsworth Borough Council
wandsworth.gov.uk
ANOTHER THING TO NOTE 0Wansworth is a fake account (with zero in front), the real one is 0Wandsworth (with an O). It's astonishing someone had the time to set one up and spent the last 3 weeks spreading misinformation about the original group. And also really quite sad. Too much time on their hands.
Now, if you're not going to take the word of someone who's been here for over 15 years and is most defo as far from the right as one can be, then I don't know whose word you'll take!
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teuchter
je suis teuchter
I'm in that group and there are people from all walks of life in there, including me. The woman who made that video is a local working mum. Don't believe whatever nasty lies and rumours are being spread, it's most certainly not right wing, there are cyclists in there, there are lots of women there and whenever someone start ranting against any road user there's an outcry. We are united not divided and everyone should have a say on how the roads work. Workers who drive for a living are having to work longer hours without extra pay and spending an average 90 minutes a day longer at work, due to to traffic. The outcry was so strong that council has decided to suspend them for now and apparently local roads will be reopened. If you haven't been in the group then your impression of it may not be accurate at all and it's probably clouded by prejudice and lies. There are 3.7k people in that group.
Most people want the same thing: safer roads for ALL, less pollution for ALL (not just a few lucky streets, usually where rich people live) and freedom of movement for ALL, including those who need to drive for a living and those who can't use other modes of transport. The LTNs in Tooting achieved NONE of that.
Low Traffic Neighbourhood trials suspended - Wandsworth Borough Council
ANOTHER THING TO NOTE 0Wansworth is a fake account (with zero in front), the real one is 0Wandsworth (with an O). It's astonishing someone had the time to set one up and spent the last 3 weeks spreading misinformation about the original group. And also really quite sad. Too much time on their hands.
Ok... so the Tory administration of Wandsworth has decided to suspend its trials, less than a month after their introduction, for different reasons than the ones discussed in that video.
I haven't been following things there ... so maybe it's true that they have collided badly with TfL changes (although really a month is much too short a time to know) or maybe there genuinely are other problems.
I wonder though, what do you think is going to happen next - will there be a round of constructive consultation followed another trial of a modified version? Or will some kind of alternative measures be put into place instead? What would they be? Do you reckon you're going to gain safer roads, less pollution and freedom of movement for ALL or even for MOST in the foreseeable future?
Will the organisation "One Wandsworth" actively push for alternative measures or will it disappear as the status quo is restored?
girasol
Addicted to handstands!
The Tory administration were the ones who installed it in the first place, people can see through that, also there was a lot of blame shifting and that didn't go down well either. In the end most people wanted to keep politics and political campaigning out and just remove the blocks and start again, from a more reasonable starting point rather than the "sledgehammer to crack a nut" approach they took.
A lot of the people in the group want a discussion and other alternatives, as I put on my post. (I must have edited to add after you quoted it
). Other people are just exhausted by the stress of it all - the much longer journeys, asthma sufferers who live on affected routes have had it rough, the hate and division it has created between drivers and cyclists and they just want things back to"normal".This was my edit to my post above:
Most people want the same thing: safer roads for ALL, less pollution for ALL (not just a few lucky streets, usually where rich people live) and freedom of movement for ALL, including those who need to drive for a living and those who can't use other modes of transport. The LTNs in Tooting achieved NONE of that. Changes that work for everyone should subsidisation of low emission vehicles (they are too expensive!), more charge points, more one way streets, 20mph on all streets (Wandsworth still has a few 30mph roads), fixing potholes so cyclists can cycle without fear of falling, better, greener and cheaper public transport.
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Gramsci
Well-Known Member
This article explains how the participants were chosen.
'Chuffed to be chosen': participants attend first UK climate assembly
Sir David Attenborough thanked the 110 people gathered in Birmingham for giving up their timewww.theguardian.com
Done well, citizens' assemblies are a great model - they've used them formally in Ireland for example to tackle thorny issues: 'Transparency and fairness': Irish readers on why the Citizens' Assembly worked
Yes the Irish model looks interesting.
If the Council had set up a Citizen's Assembly on road use on the Irish model the present situation might have been avoided.
Instead the Council used pandemic to implement these changes to roads without proper consultation.
Leading to division and resentment.
The Irish model of Citizen Assembly was thorough and well organized.
Lambeth could learn something from this.
DJWrongspeed
radio eros
this doesn't read well does it?
As protests go what does it want? "high" traffic, as much traffic as possible?
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
This is kind of inevitable whenever any new anti rat run scheme comes in. What you described before sounds about right to me every week and half Brixton Hill is really crap, mostly it flows - slowly - but predictably. But this is what happens with a road system that's basically at capacity; it only takes a small extra thing to jam it - a breakdown or a minor crash, a badly-parked lorry on a delivery, a row in the street, 20 extra journeys randomly added to the normal load - background statistical noise in terms of 'why' but enough to jam up the road.
This is how our roads operate, and it is how they will always operate. The number of potential journeys is infinite and since car use keeps getting cheaper and more reliable the only restraint on use is the extent to which the journey is literally possible within the time that makes it worthwhile. The system always returns to this level of capacity (at peak hours - ie 8-8 in London).
It will get back to a new normal which will be very similar to the old normal, only with fewer cars making the journey. It was the same when Brixton Hill was nearly all a 4 lane road with no bus lanes and no parking, i.e had nearly twice the capacity. Every time something changes the traffic jams, then it returns to the basic level.
editor
hiraethified
Update:
www.brixtonbuzz.com
New survey claims ‘huge support’ for Railton Low Traffic Neighbourhood
Rarely has a local issue proved as divisive and as controversial as Lambeth’s Low Traffic Neighbourhood (LTN) scheme, which has seen borough-wide road closures implemented in an attempt to re…
www.brixtonbuzz.com
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