sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
And the other report which followed loads of similar schemes in different countries, but if you have other figures - let’s see them.
Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists
- Thread starter teuchter
- Start date
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Fair enough, apologies to newbie - and you if I'm going over-binary on this one. The thread ran out of the size that I can keep up with these days.
If I get twitchy about this is because it's cars that are the problem and yet every tiny, minimalist little scheme to do anything at all about restricting them is always met with this massive wailing. I'm so old I can remember when Miles Street in Vauxhall was closed to cars, my god the outcry! Who even notices now? Except the decades of multitudes of cyclists and pedestrians who can now safely use that road.
Cars are the problem; that's the beginning of this whole issue and they've been winning my whole life, with a few tiny little defeats on the way. And they kill thousands of people every year, never mind the indirect killings and damage they inflict via loss of community cohesion, loss of active transport, mental health damage, visual damage, sound damage, smell damage, space theft, the thuggish aggressive behaviour they elicit from a minority of drivers.
And yes, it's got more complex - there are multiple intermediate modes of car use - we've always had minicabs and I used to use them when I was car free. Also electric bikes/trikes/cars are blurring other boundaries. But the starting point should be that streets are for people not machines. If that were true we'd all be massively better off.
Re the issue of whether LTNs reduce overall use; this will be down to whether they are introduced in some meaningful wider strategy or the usual cowardly piecemeal, one-at-a-time, do-it-by-stealth bullshit that is the only way we're allowed to do anything about the car problem in the UK.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Im going to have to repeat myself a bit.
When the Brixton Liiveable Neighbourhood was first put forward by the Council they said lessons had been learnt from the LJ debacle.
That this time they were going to go spend a lot of effort consulting people, getting local communities on side. They would not be imposing Liveable Neighbourhood on people.
This was ditched when Covid meant they could do it without consultation.
Argument put forward by some early on in thread ( Winot was one of them) is that this setting aside of local democray was a good thing. That consultation means it all gets delayed or watered down due to oppostion by some local residents.
More recent line taken on this thread is to smear any opposition with being racist and right wing. Or being taken in by shady right wing funding of Facebook groups.
I find both lines of argument aren't ones I can agree with.
This Council does not like consulting people imo. When it does it tries to subvert the findings. Seen this over the Culture2020 consultation, consultation on LJ masterplan and way residents have been consulted over estate regeneration. I don't think it is good to encourage them by supporting this imposition of LTNs on people without the proper consultation. It encourages the Council to think its fine to do things this way. At recent online meeting Council officer said one thing they had learnt over the pandemic is to be more "nimble". Unrestrained from the normal local democracy officers have liked being able to just get on with what they think is right without having to deal with pesky residents.
This is not good.
The second line of argument reminds me of how Brexit supporters are viewed.
Torpid Scorpion
Basket case
I agree with you Gramsci that this should have had more consultation, could have been better designed, lacks democratic legitimacy, and has real drawbacks; and yet the opposition is very oddly organised, well funded, replete with threads on nextdoor started by people who dont seem to exist online outside of said threads, and many other things that scream ‘grant shapps’ (or did i mean ‘michael green’). Both can be true.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Why should they consult with the people when the people clearly don't know what's in their own best interests?
Think that was one of the main things that got up people’s noses in the brexit argument not that I’m going there
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
And look how well that’s turning out.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Sadly we're all going there, over Niagara Falls in a shitty barrel of Boris Johnson's design
Well it took my wife an hour each way to drive from brixton to Vauxhall today and she came back really stressed. Still trying to source a bike as she’s happy to give cycling a go but we’ve been messed around by a seller. Seems to be a lot of anger about it now but who will blink first? I’m hoping that behaviour will change particularly around these short journeys but the car lobby won’t back down without a fight.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
My experience of the LJ road closures was the campaign against them was well organised and sucessful.
I know for a fact it was initiated by residents of the Loughborough Estate ( Council tenants). They produced the leaflets organised on the estate and lobbied the Council. Working class people can do things on their own initiative if they are pissed off enough.
When opposition to the State/ Local State occurs its a surprise to some that ordinary people can get organised and do things.
I find it rather patronising that if opposition to the State seems to be getting some ground it can't possibly be down to the ordinary populace.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Slow day today and I was looking at my FB and Twitter.
Awful lot of posts on One Lambeth by people complaining about longer journey times.
I didnt realise but there are a lot of LTNs in Lambeth that are starting up. Not just in Brixton / Oval area. Plus Wandsworth.
Wandsworth has LTN that is , according to the FB posts , having a knock on effect on Lambeth.
See ex LD Cllr Jeremy Clyne is commenting on adverse effect of LTNs.
Going to have to see if the anger on the FB is translated into people turning up to the demo on Saturday.
Organisers of One Lambeth are correctly telling people to put all their criticisms on the Lambeth Commonplace websites. As that is the official consultation pages.
Awful lot of posts on One Lambeth by people complaining about longer journey times.
I didnt realise but there are a lot of LTNs in Lambeth that are starting up. Not just in Brixton / Oval area. Plus Wandsworth.
Wandsworth has LTN that is , according to the FB posts , having a knock on effect on Lambeth.
See ex LD Cllr Jeremy Clyne is commenting on adverse effect of LTNs.
Going to have to see if the anger on the FB is translated into people turning up to the demo on Saturday.
Organisers of One Lambeth are correctly telling people to put all their criticisms on the Lambeth Commonplace websites. As that is the official consultation pages.
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
Has she thought about walking? I don’t know where in Brixton or Vauxhall but it’s possibly only about 45 minutes.
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
On an astroturfed anti-LTN site the are lots of people complaining about LTNs?
Are you serious? . You missed this? . They are all over London.
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
Wandsworth made me laugh out loud a couple of weeks ago:
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
While out and about earlier someone who should know about these things said there is a march against LTNs on Saturday, starting at the Oval Triangle and coming down to Windrush Sq. Thinks it might be more mainstream than the tin foil brigade last week.
madolesance
Well-Known Member
Hope that bloke who failed to get nominated for ukip and his followers from north London come along again to to Lambeth Town Hall. Fairly sure he'll get a better welcome this time. He's got a great way at talking in public. South London's going to go nuts for him!
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Im aware of that. Ive seen them. The van and motorbike delivery people I know say its increasing times for some deliveries.
Yes she has and does but she’s a full on primary school teacher so 8-6 is a normal day for her and then you have to add on a walk, it’s a long day, everyday.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
I don't get why your wife's right to drive to work trumps my right to cycle to work.
Torpid Scorpion
Basket case
My comments have been about the current anti-LTN situation, much of which looks and smells like astroturf (im sure there are real, local people in it too) and which has had explicit tory support since the beginning, not my opinion but as reported in the guardian and elsewhere. Of course ordinary people can effect change, but not nearly often enough. What is patronising is your using the fallacy of the converse to tar me with a belief i don’t hold, as above. so please don't.
cars sure bring out bad emotions in people!
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
You're welcome.
It doesn’t and I didn’t claim it would. Like I have said repeatedly, she is changing her behaviour to drive less by cycling and walking, I was just replying about the length of the walk
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
The thing is, it's a zero-sum game. The more our streets are made safer, quicker and more comfortable for pedestrians, cyclists, and public transport users, the more that car-drivers lose out in terms of capacity and speed. There's no way you can get both.
So when car-drivers complain about extra jams/extra journey time, they are effectively asking for everyone else to take a hit - and I fully get that when I demand safer, more usable streets for non-drivers, I'm asking drivers to take a hit. I think it's more justified that way round.
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
Pollution 'takes a hit'; becasue cars are diverted around a LTN, on increased congestion on boundary roads, on the consequence of longer journey times as the knock on effect causes vechiles who would have used boundary roads make route decisions further away. LTNs often cause pollution, just not in the streets that have been protected.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
I know things have reached Peak Silly when people pushing car use start complaining about air pollution caused by schemes to reduce car dependence..
If you don't like air pollution and the hundreds of thousands of premature deaths and disabilities it produces each year in London, half the solution is to get rid of cars. There's no evidence that LTNS increase pollution.
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
Christ you don't get it do you.
Do you think the traffic is magiced (sic) away by the magic traffic fairy, or is the traffic pushed onto already busy boundary roads. Why do you think people here are talking about substantially longer journey times.
Do you think the traffic is magiced (sic) away by the magic traffic fairy, or is the traffic pushed onto already busy boundary roads. Why do you think people here are talking about substantially longer journey times.
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
Although it looks like the fire brigade have said they weren't delayed, it wasn't an emergency (someone was locked out of their house - isn't that a job for a locksmith rather than the fire service? Shouldn't they be charged for the call out?) and they support the Ferndale LTN.
Also a stay-at-home mum who drives to Clapham Nando's and a short school run.
I'm not sure Ferndale opponents have really made a strong case.
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