sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
I wonder what the reaction would be to RTS protests on these boards now?....
Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists
- Thread starter teuchter
- Start date
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
Wanting things to remain as they are, it’s small c conservatism, add in the status that car ownership has to some people, the “freedoms” that are being taken away etc.
It’s no accident that it’s left leaning councils are the ones trying this out.
Brassed off
New Member
I’m not sure ‘repeat outfits is a crime’ certainly ex ukippers is an issue and he won’t be invited again, (former revolutionary communist Brexiteers & XR 5G anti Vaxers posting Trump tweets are all big on lobbying against council ‘group think’, so yes with fast growing protest groups you have to be vigilant! who gets in!) ) as 4 black cab drivers, I’ve taken many a cab journey over the years if they can go electric across the board, that’s fine by me. But the majority where local residents from Ferndale & some of us from RailtonLTN. It was hastily organised as the Main speaker ( a mother of disabled son struggling to get him to school) felt compelled to ‘get out there! Local businesses came and a local ward councillor from Stockwell. Who was inside talking with Claire Holland on a local LTN matter and supporting his constituents, that’s what ppl are asking for ppl to listen & not just tow the party line because it’s convenient. If businesses go under the entire community will loose! I want local businesses to be supported, I don’t expect them to be patronised and trashed. If you value the diverse community you live in, listen to it, find solutions so everyone wins without damaging others.
Brassed off
New Member
Respectfully you don’t sound like someone who is going to loose their livelihood over this? You sound like you are happy to watch the ‘experiment unfold’ without having much skin in the game! IDK, I don’t want to be rubbish you, there is way too much of that going on. This community is open to changed and if comprehensively engaged with would have really surprised you! If Waltham Forest had reported 40-50% car journey reductions it might have been a price worth paying for transformative change. But at 1% decrease! What the feck’ is going on? A why is that acceptable to impose across a highly populated inner city borough!
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Ok then. What would the measure be, that would satisfy you? Residents travel 40-50% fewer miles by car? 40-50% of residents report using their car less? Residents see a 40-50% drop in traffic on their street? What do you mean when you say "40-50% car journey reductions"?
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
I won’t lose my livelihood over this you’re right, but I am also taking warnings from shopholders with a massive pinch of salt at the moment because I see shops all over struggle because of covid. Can you explain why I’m wrong?. People are furloughed and worried about losing their jobs, that’s why they’re not going into shops and spending money.
I can also see the potential for moving away from a polluting mode of transport, if you build it they will come..
With respect @Lambeth_council impősing these vilë #LTN's on us withoůt ANY consultatiôn whatsoevėr & barely any notiće & withøut due proçess is DICTATORIAL indêêd.
No ifs nø buťs.
These are facts & therefore why you feél it inapprøpriate to meńtion this is a mysterý to mè!
wurlycurly
diss member
Bikes v cars v bus v pedestrians. This is why our city is dominated by the motor vehicle. Look at the cars when you're walking around and you'll see most of them have one occupant. Some of them will be driving down to the local shop. Or the local Post Office. Change is long overdue.
Brassed off
New Member
Well it’s important that you ask yourself, otherwise my anecdotal feedback will not be enough for you. Ppl would be open to talk, I hope you can engage.
What has been said to me is that things were picking up after Covid 1st wave and when the road closed especially Railton it was as if the tap had been turned off (hardly surprising) and if you are an LTN fan the first big sign of success I guess.
I come from Liverpool, left home at 18. I didn’t stay local I moved 250miles away if I had, if my parents were still alive I’d be driving in to see them doing their shopping, taking them to and from appointments ( if they were independent enough) point is this is a big working class borough, and many visitors ( by car) are returning locals doing just that supporting family & shopping locally for them, this is also a large BAME working class community and what I’m repeated told is a lot of former residents are out in Croydon they are returning from there and all over the borough to support family see friends, work! As you know Brixton it a culturally iconic hub! That’s why ppl fought for Nour it’s significance to many in the community that’s where BAME businesses are being hit hard and they don’t have much resilience in the way of deep pockets .
So those returning visitors are not ‘rat runners’ but valued customers and their ability to support the local community has been hugely underestimated.
10,000 small businesses in Lambeth many small & micro businesses employing 9 or less ppl. If these observations are dismissed as ‘rubbish, it’s Covid, it’s furlough when why are ppl in Herne Hill cafe and shops doing ok? I don’t know who you are but I worry that your reluctance to accept ‘their truth’ is more to do with an unshakable faith in the LTN model?
so if LTN’s are seen to damage livelihoods should those inside pay a levy to support such business? IDK?It certainly doesn’t look like it removes traffic, or improves pollution, but only gives the impression it does for those sailing through from one LTN grid to another, was that the plan?
Brassed off
New Member
Yes that’s a very powerful image! Then the real challenge is curb side parking make it unprofitable to have cars outside homes. Across the board. Not just allowing the ‘in grid’ comfortably off to drive around at their ease! Less popular I imagine!
wurlycurly
diss member
If adding a few minutes to some journeys is the first horseman of the apocalypse, I'd imagine a ban on kerbside parking would be the other three rocking up all at once.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
What is forgotten is that section of the working class use roads to make a living. These are people I know. I personally know Black Cab drivers, Uber drivers, moped delivery guys. and van drivers.
Was helping friend who is van driver yesterday. Road "filtering" around City is not making his life easier. He does not get paid more if delivery job takes longer.
Its the reason , whilst Im a non car owning cyclist I understand the other side of it.
Its not small "c" conservatism to not be happy with road "filtering"
Its an issue that is cross class.
When I cycle around a lot of traffic is people working. Not just people using cars to get around as they don't want to walk to friends or shops.
Its Uber, delivery vehicles, builders etc.
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
Rationing parking permits? I reckon they'll be thinking of joining QAnon.
I don't have particularly strong views on this topic - never having owned a car, but:
- would it help of all cars were electric - or is it not really about pollution?
- I think the council is in a slightly hypocritical postion on the whole issue. Until council house building ceased mid-Thatcher, it was absolutely essential to provide for car ownership and car parling on council estates. Some of this provision has been blocked up due to alleged drug taking in underground car parks etc, but in many estates car ownership is an assumed right - whatever people on here or in the traffic engineers department think.
- I have personally suffered because of selfish car owners in my terrace who petitioned to bring in parking controls almost as soon as they were invented thirty odd years ago. This is highly inconvenient when you need someone to do a week's work replacing a boiler, or renewing the roof.
- your raising parking rationing is not the best idea in my opinion. Something more like a local car tax supplement would be what I would argue for. Just to make car ownership less attractive. Frankly getting rid of the ACPOA traffic wardens would be quite liberating I would think.
Alternatively how about introducing LTN Toll Gates as in Dulwich? If the council are worried about ACPOA staff facing redundancy they could be redeployed to protective toll gates surrounding the Liveable Neighbourhoods. It seems Dulwich charge 1.20 for a single journey. That could be quite remunerative.
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
if you are driving from Croydon though, how long are you spending stuck in traffic?. Is an extra 10 minutes really going to mean you don't do shopping for your parents?
There is no " faith" in an LTN model, they already exist all over the place, including in Brixton and they work. It's why estates don't have through roads. This isn't some new idea, it's been around for decades.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Its not as simple as that.
Take my area LJ. Council brought in CPZ. Not a lot of local opposition. As Council estate residents had on estate parking. It is only new developments which dont have right to a parking space.
For example i could still get a parking permit if I bought a car. As I still have that right.
So whilst some estates have no through road one could still own and park a car in the area.
wurlycurly
diss member
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I tried to book the Council bulky waste disposal a while back. It now is service one pays for but its not to expensive. The online booking kept saying my address cannot have this service.
When i managed to talk to them an issue was the CPZ - can't park.
This leaves me stuck with broken fridge,,cooker and old mattress.
Hardly surprising that my street sees a lot of stuff put out on pavement at night.
Bravö for being a decent, fair-minded persön who clearly understands there arĕ many differing views on the sůbject.
It's a pity môre people aren't less entřenchéd iń theiř viěws.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Attended this yesterday Onlne meeting.
www.brixtonbuzz.com
It is new Council initiative. I will comment on it more later on different thread.
Someone from One Lambeth came to voice opposition to the Railton LTN. They did speak well.
She was local person and a nurse.
Those not happy with the Railton LTN have had meetings with the local Cllrs,
There were three Cllrs at the online meeting last night.
Surprisingly she was not cut off. Had grumbling from one Cllr who always has go at anyone who criticises Council.
Got distinct feeling that the recent opposition has got the Labour Cllrs rattled.
Which I like to see. As ususally they think the can dismiss and belittle any oppositon.
I must say Cllr Jacqui Dyer handled it well. I dont know her as a Cllr.
Gist of what the nurse said was that the Railton LTN was dividing commnity on racial / class lines ( gentrification) through Council placed barriers, pushing pollution onto other roads, pushing traffic onto roads around the LTN, making it less safe for women to walk home as streets were not busy and affecting badly BAME business.
So she was saying the Council imposed LTN was undermining community.
She also complained of bullying by the cyclists supporting the LTN. She said she didnt like the way the senior Cllr in charge of this had treated people opposing the scheme.
To my surprise the Cllrs present did not cut her off. Or give her a hard a time. Except one who didnt surprise me.
I did not agree with everything she said but its good to see the Cllrs on a back foot for once. That takes something.
The oppsitiion to the LTN are well organised lot.
Coldharbour ward – Lambeth online meeting to ‘discuss community resilience and safety in your area,’ Thurs 27th Aug 2020
Lambeth is inviting residents to an online a meeting about the Coldharbour ward on Thursday August 27th, which will provide a, “new opportunity to discuss community resilience and safety in y…
www.brixtonbuzz.com
It is new Council initiative. I will comment on it more later on different thread.
Someone from One Lambeth came to voice opposition to the Railton LTN. They did speak well.
She was local person and a nurse.
Those not happy with the Railton LTN have had meetings with the local Cllrs,
There were three Cllrs at the online meeting last night.
Surprisingly she was not cut off. Had grumbling from one Cllr who always has go at anyone who criticises Council.
Got distinct feeling that the recent opposition has got the Labour Cllrs rattled.
Which I like to see. As ususally they think the can dismiss and belittle any oppositon.
I must say Cllr Jacqui Dyer handled it well. I dont know her as a Cllr.
Gist of what the nurse said was that the Railton LTN was dividing commnity on racial / class lines ( gentrification) through Council placed barriers, pushing pollution onto other roads, pushing traffic onto roads around the LTN, making it less safe for women to walk home as streets were not busy and affecting badly BAME business.
So she was saying the Council imposed LTN was undermining community.
She also complained of bullying by the cyclists supporting the LTN. She said she didnt like the way the senior Cllr in charge of this had treated people opposing the scheme.
To my surprise the Cllrs present did not cut her off. Or give her a hard a time. Except one who didnt surprise me.
I did not agree with everything she said but its good to see the Cllrs on a back foot for once. That takes something.
The oppsitiion to the LTN are well organised lot.
Last edited:
sparkybird
ask the bird...
Interesting fact about electric cars....I only recently found out that exhaust emissions are only part of the problem with petrol/diesel cars - small, harmful particles are generated by wear and tear on brake pads and also the from the road itself. As petrol cars have got 'greener' these wear and tear emissions start to account for more of the bad stuff. And of course they still happen with electric cars - maybe more so as they can be heavier (due to the batteries). I used to think electric cars were the answer...not so much now.
Regarding the CPZ - as a tradeswomen I can tell you I leap for joy when my client lives in a CPZ as I know I will be able to park near the job. If there's no CPZ and I can find a space it's often far away and I might spend as much time walking between the job and my vehicle with my tools as doing the job - and that cost of course gets charged to the client. So conversely forking out £5 a day for a visitor permit might save money! A few times I have had to cancel a job as there was simply nowhere to park - and I now I don't do jobs in certain streets anymore, as I know there will be problems.
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
I think it's important to say some arguments against the Railton area LTN are powerful and can't be ignored.Attended this yesterday Onlne meeting.
Coldharbour ward – Lambeth online meeting to ‘discuss community resilience and safety in your area,’ Thurs 27th Aug 2020
Lambeth is inviting residents to an online a meeting about the Coldharbour ward on Thursday August 27th, which will provide a, “new opportunity to discuss community resilience and safety in y…
It is new Council initiative. I will comment on it more later on different thread.
Someone from One Lambeth came to voice opposition to the Railton LTN. They did speak well.
She was local person and a nurse.
Those not happy with the Railton LTN have had meetings with the local Cllrs,
There were three Cllrs at the online meeting last night.
Surprisingly she was not cut off. Had grumbling from one Cllr who always has go at anyone who criticises Council.
Got distinct feeling that the recent opposition has got the Labour Cllrs rattled.
Which I like to see. As ususally they think the can dismiss and belittle any oppositon.
I must say Cllr Jacqui Dyer handled it well. I dont know her as a Cllr.
Gist of what the nurse said was that the Railton LTN was dividing commnity on racial / class lines ( gentrification) through Council placed barriers, pushing pollution onto other roads, pushing traffic onto roads around the LTN, making it less safe for women to walk home as streets were not busy and affecting badly BAME business.
So she was saying the Council imposed LTN was undermining community.
She also complained of bullying by the cyclists supporting the LTN. She said she didnt like the way the senior Cllr in charge of this had treated people opposing the scheme.
To my surprise the Cllrs present did not cut her off. Or give her a hard a time. Except one who didnt surprise me.
I did not agree with everything she said but its good to see the Cllrs on a back foot for once. That takes something.
The oppsitiion to the LTN are well organised lot.
It literally is pushing pollution onto other - primarily poorer areas - so the generally more affluent area benefits. All you have to do to prove that is sit in your car at the Oval end of Brixton Road and switch on a satnav app. That isn't just unfair and immoral - talking specifically about Railton still - there is a strong argement against it in public law and I have pointed that out to councillors. General principles:
Decision Making by public bodies: How to avoid legal challenge
This article was first published in Practical Law Company in December 2008.
www.fieldfisher.com
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
How interesting.I think it's important to say some arguments against the Railton area LTN are powerful and can't be ignored.
It literally is pushing pollution onto other - primarily poorer areas - so the generally more affluent area benefits. All you have to do to prove that is sit in your car at the Oval end of Brixton Road and switch on a satnav app. That isn't just unfair and immoral - talking specifically about Railton still - there is a strong argement against it in public law and I have pointed that out to councillors. General principles:
Decision Making by public bodies: How to avoid legal challenge
This article was first published in Practical Law Company in December 2008.
All you have to do is sit in your car and switch on the StaNav.
How about the majority of the population round here who don't have a car to sit in?
BTW are you threatening - or do you know of - legal action pending against the council on these schemes?
Or is this Trumpish hot air designed to destabilise the conversation?
Rushy
basically a scrotum
I think you mean £20.91 per day.
Visitor permits are £5 a day and are not supposed to be used by traders. Lambeth's online permit shop warns: If your require permits for a trade persons working on your property for example, plumbers, decorators and builders, you'll need to purchase traders permits to allow them to park near your property.
The idea is that it's not supposed to be a no-brainer for trades to pay only £5. It is supposed to make trades and their clients think hard about whether there is an alternative to driving about - particularly on multi day jobs - when for so many visits a bike or motorbike would suffice.
The system is clearly open to regular abuse by residents and traders. Just 100 misuses per day would cost the council almost £500,000pa - the cost of implementing several LTNs. Given that some trades will need multiple permits a day this is probably a very conservative figure. Scrupulous traders should refuse to use visitors permits in the same way that they should refuse doing a cheap cash deal. Using visitor permits is just another form of casual theft from cash strapped council services.
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
sparkybird
ask the bird...
LBL take 10-14 days to issue the trader permits after the householder has submitted a letter from their tradesperson with a quote for the work - this is not really a workable solution for small jobs which are often done and dusted from phone call to job completed within a week and even less for emergency work.
Torpid Scorpion
Basket case
Seems like an example of brilliant Tory divide and rule. Cummings at work.
1> DofT promotes scheme to reduce traffic demand with central funding and local implementation, and st atutory authority:
2> cash-strapped neoliberal council takes the hook, which is anyway in line with their plan to reduce auto usage:
Love Lambeth
The Mayor of London and Transport for London (TfL) have announced today that Lambeth Council has been successful in its multi-million bid to TfL’s ‘Liveable Neighbourhoods’ fund.
3> DofT forces Mayor to take punitive measures to keep public good (TfL) operating when covid tanksfare receipts (having previously set this up by forcing the workers to fund transit through fares rather than the employers through taxes) which exacerbate the situation for the automobile-obsessed:
Transport for London extraordinary funding and financing
Support funding package for Transport for London in order to keep vital public transport services running in London.
Khan forced to hike congestion charge after TfL bail-out
Sadiq Khan has been forced to hike the congestion charge to £15 a day to help fill a financial black hole in London’s transport system caused by coronavirus, the Evening Standard can reveal. Under the terms of a government bailout, the Mayor must also end his fares freeze, meaning tickets for...
4. local tory groups “spontaneously” fund, staff, and organise resistance and disinformation campaign aimed at rolling back scheme and laying blame on labour (mayor and council)
English councils backpedal on cycling schemes after Tory backlash
‘Cycling revolution’ at risk as local Conservatives lobby to remove funded cycle routes
www.theguardian.com
10 years of tory rule, but its all Sadiq’s fault. How is this not the ‘play’?I’m in favour of a serious look at how our roads work. These LTNs seem flawed in execution, lacking an overall framework/vision, and intended to divide from the outset. The bad blood is a feature, not a bug. I hope we get decent data out of them and dont just cancel them and bin the opportunity to learn something.
sparkybird
ask the bird...
Yes but people generally have visitors permits to hand. For trader permits you have to have a letter from the trader before you apply, then 10-14 days. It's only workable for large jobs booked way in advance. Whoever devised the scheme didn't think about how it would work in practice for smaller jobs....
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
Just because they're wc doesn't mean they're not small or even big c conservatives, especially in the case of black cab drivers. If we do want to ease congestion we should be curbing the 110k phv licenses in London..
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