Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists
- Thread starter teuchter
- Start date
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
According to a source at the "Lambeth Council Highways Team", very little was done in the way of current traffic flow analysis in projected LTNs, so displacement will most likely be a matter of opinion, with the views of supporters & non-supporters differing wildly.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
What Lambeth COULD have done, but chose not to, was to undertake traffic surveys last yr when they declared a "climate emergency", to see which roads could be usefully & safely pedestrianised, without shifting the traffic load asymmetrically onto neighbouring roads. They chose not to, because their declaration of a "climate emergency" was a) to steal a march on the Green Party, and b) to garner some cheap publicity.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Kind of a different thing. RTS usually blocked main roads, LTNs supposedly divert traffic onto main roads, so wouldn't RTS be anti-LTN?
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
Jim Dickson. Literally a rebranded estate agent.
editor
hiraethified
They were also temporary - as in half a day or so - and were created in response to pro-car/pro road building government policy at the time. I really don't see any meaningful comparisons at all.Kind of a different thing. RTS usually blocked main roads, LTNs supposedly divert traffic onto main roads, so wouldn't RTS be anti-LTN?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Brassed off
New Member
You’re not wrong there!!
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Love it that the man with the Twitter handle of @jimdickslambeth calls himself a "Comms Consultant", and actually DOES dick Lambeth! He's a truly repulsive individual in person, and arguably the originator of the shift among Lambeth cllrs to supporting a neoliberal approach to housing in the borough.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Because there aren't any meaningful comparisons beyond "both block roads".
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Cant see what being big c or small c has to do with it.
This stereotype that all Black Cab drivers are right wing is a lazy stereotype.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Going back to the stuff about people driving into Brixton to take care of elderly relatives... I'm not going to question that there's a pattern of younger folk who may have grown up around Brixton, moving further out, whether that's to Streatham or West Norwood or Croydon or wherever, and for sure their parents or grandparents may well still live in Brixton. This scenario will be familiar to anyone who knows the area. And of course those younger people will be making frequent trips back to see relatives, either just socially or to help with care or to do things like help with shopping.
The thing is, if you genuinely want to see less traffic on the roads, and less pollution, and all the rest of it, then you have to be prepared to say that some of those people will have to adjust their travel habits. You have to be able to question whether the best way to help an elderly parent with their shopping is to drive all the way from outer London, perhaps drive to a supermarket, drive to their house, then drive all the way home again. If we genuinely want to reduce traffic then some of that has to change. There will be some people for whom there might not be alternatives, for all sorts of reasons, but why can't we ask some people who are currently doing that to rethink things? Driving to a supermarket is not the only way to get shopping, especially now that online ordering and delivery has become more common. I'm not suggesting that folk should stop visiting their elderly parents, but there will be plenty of cases where there are alternatives to driving. Public transport exists in London (I know things are made more complicated right now - I am talking more about the long term).
As usual, the discussion on this "use case" seems to focus on those for whom a car is an option. What about all those who need to support elderly relatives but don't have a car? We focus on the inconvenience caused to those who drive, and for whom the journey takes 10 minutes longer, but why not talk about the people who need to make those visits by bus or on foot or by bike? These schemes are supposed to be making things easier for them. And while someone young(ish) and healthy is driving to see their elderly relative, they are adding their bit to the traffic or congestion or pollution that negatively affects someone else's elderly relatives.
And on the subject of doing supermarket shopping by car - this simply doesn't work somewhere like zone 2 London if anything more than a relatively small portion of the population does it. But aside from that, shouldn't this be considered alongside the concern that's being expressed about local, small shops? Anyone driving to a supermarket is taking trade away from those shops... the kind of shops as it happens (unlike large car-serviced supermarkets) that can potentially remain accessible to those who have restricted mobility but can perhaps walk a short distance. I think we should be focussing on doing stuff that keeps services like shops close to people, and gives people as much independence as possible, rather than worrying about inconvenience to those who choose to do shopping by car.
In any case I'm not entirely clear about the logic of the narrative about local shops suffering because they aren't getting passing trade from people driving by car to see their elderly relatives. What's happening instead? Is a slightly longer journey resulting in it being too much effort to go and see people? If people are still doing it by car, but taking a little longer, that portion of shops' passing trade is still going to be there. Those people will still be driving into the LN zones. If they've switched to bus or foot or bike, then there should be more trade for local shops and businesses, not less.
The thing is, if you genuinely want to see less traffic on the roads, and less pollution, and all the rest of it, then you have to be prepared to say that some of those people will have to adjust their travel habits. You have to be able to question whether the best way to help an elderly parent with their shopping is to drive all the way from outer London, perhaps drive to a supermarket, drive to their house, then drive all the way home again. If we genuinely want to reduce traffic then some of that has to change. There will be some people for whom there might not be alternatives, for all sorts of reasons, but why can't we ask some people who are currently doing that to rethink things? Driving to a supermarket is not the only way to get shopping, especially now that online ordering and delivery has become more common. I'm not suggesting that folk should stop visiting their elderly parents, but there will be plenty of cases where there are alternatives to driving. Public transport exists in London (I know things are made more complicated right now - I am talking more about the long term).
As usual, the discussion on this "use case" seems to focus on those for whom a car is an option. What about all those who need to support elderly relatives but don't have a car? We focus on the inconvenience caused to those who drive, and for whom the journey takes 10 minutes longer, but why not talk about the people who need to make those visits by bus or on foot or by bike? These schemes are supposed to be making things easier for them. And while someone young(ish) and healthy is driving to see their elderly relative, they are adding their bit to the traffic or congestion or pollution that negatively affects someone else's elderly relatives.
And on the subject of doing supermarket shopping by car - this simply doesn't work somewhere like zone 2 London if anything more than a relatively small portion of the population does it. But aside from that, shouldn't this be considered alongside the concern that's being expressed about local, small shops? Anyone driving to a supermarket is taking trade away from those shops... the kind of shops as it happens (unlike large car-serviced supermarkets) that can potentially remain accessible to those who have restricted mobility but can perhaps walk a short distance. I think we should be focussing on doing stuff that keeps services like shops close to people, and gives people as much independence as possible, rather than worrying about inconvenience to those who choose to do shopping by car.
In any case I'm not entirely clear about the logic of the narrative about local shops suffering because they aren't getting passing trade from people driving by car to see their elderly relatives. What's happening instead? Is a slightly longer journey resulting in it being too much effort to go and see people? If people are still doing it by car, but taking a little longer, that portion of shops' passing trade is still going to be there. Those people will still be driving into the LN zones. If they've switched to bus or foot or bike, then there should be more trade for local shops and businesses, not less.
snowy_again
Slush
Remind me of the difference in racial diversity between Hackney carriage black cabs and private hire vehicles.
Any regulated industry where the workforce is something like 97% white British and has consistently been like that for a long time doesn’t strike me as particularly left leaning.
Also UTAG twitter is awash with All Lives Matter types.
I’m aware that I’m making generalisations and there are exceptions to this, but in 30+ years of London black cab use the Thatcherite ethos is what I remember most.
The flip side is that as a regulated industry they were forced to be physically accessible. But travelling often with wheelchair using friends, they’d ignore/blank you or make excuses trying to hail them (or tell you they were on their way home) as much as when I was with a group of black colleagues.
That’s not saying that private hire is much better. Doug Paulleys twitter account is general him documenting inaccessible and illegal travel practices as part of the transport for all campaigning group.
snowy_again
Slush
Good to see you back on here
snowy_again
Slush
Council services are disjointed and siloed aren’t they. The estate I live on has a weekly Lambeth truck that turns up and collects waste goods (anything that’s not rubbish or recycling) as there’s no access for the booking service. Do you want me to ask them next week whether the same thing is offered in Loughborough?
snowy_again
Slush
That was genuine btw - reading back I’m aware that it could be interpreted as sarcasm.
Brassed off
New Member
do you mean, that 1% is acceptable? Who sold these appalling stats to the council and why didn’t any of you question them? I’m a resident with feck all knowledge of traffic planning but I can see this isn’t fair or equitable! Yet you all comfortable bought in to it! What do you expect from ‘traffic evaporation in local car numbers? Because none of us have been ‘gifted’ with the metrics of success? I’m just told by ppl on here that concerns by local businesses ppl about loss of customer due to closures should be ‘taken with a pinch of salt!’ what a mess.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Are you declining to answer my question then?
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
Let’s reclaim the streets, but only temporarily!
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
Lets Reclaim the Side Streets
Aristocrat
Stop me b4 I do it again
The irony of cabbies protesting LTNs in Brixton is that when I first moved here twenty years ago, you couldn't get a cabbie from central London to take you to Brixton. Racism, I assumed.
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
No. You might remember the phrase was 'south of the river'. Never, even had racial connartations, except it seems in your head.
The calculation is 'when I drop off the customer, will I get a pick up to take me on, and referably back to the centre'. It's about, as they call it, 'dead mileage'.
Last edited:
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Ones I know were motorbike couriers. I also used to know an ancient old school East End Jewish cab driver as we used the same cafe. Nice guy.
Several Londoners i know have family tradition of some of them being Cabbies. Its the last of the jobs a working class londoner could earn good money. Docks/ Printing has all gone. The markets aren't what they were- that was another way to earn good money. So it can come across as out of place in the modern world. Apart from the pandemic the Gig economy is threatening them. Uber. The growth of supermarkets did it for the markets. Cabbies survived as the growth of the City as intermational financial hub under Thatcher meant they had plenty of custom. They are now struggling. Ive heard rent for cabs has been reduced as so many Cabs are lying idle.
Some of the argument here has been of the Black Cab drivers are racist / conservative implying they deserve no sympathy.
My view is that well paid jobs for ordinary people should be supported.
Criticising some Cabbies opposing LTNs should be about whether LTNs are really that bad for their business or not. Not based on what perceptions people have of them.
Last edited:
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
plus, the breaking of unions in some industries, partic in the Thatcher era.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I cycled down Railton road last Thursday about 4pm. It was a lot nicer with no traffic.
I did see Hamiltons looking somewhat forlorn on its own. So wonder how much passing trade he is losing.
On Friday came back nearby and CHL was at a standstill at 7pm. From Ritzy to Gresham road. I'd like to know how much of this is due to the Railton LTN.
I did see Hamiltons looking somewhat forlorn on its own. So wonder how much passing trade he is losing.
On Friday came back nearby and CHL was at a standstill at 7pm. From Ritzy to Gresham road. I'd like to know how much of this is due to the Railton LTN.
Last edited:
editor
hiraethified
There's no doubt in my mind that there's been a huge leap in traffic levels at some times of the day on CHL.
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
Non-private schools are back this week (no idea about private)? I think we'll get a fairer representation beginning in a couple of weeks - obv. still a lot of non-commuting homeworking, as well.
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
Should we really be designing our cities around what businesses want?. Especially one as polluting and wasteful as black cabs.
Similar threads
