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Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

Loose meat said:
Railton area LTN is a special case imo becasue satnav, etc encourages drivers to divert via roads and estates of predominately social housing.
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Except it doesn't, as has been shown already - there's far more social housing within the area that benefits than there is on the surrounding roads, and in fact, the boundary roads don't seem to be predominantly social housing at all.
 
editor said:
I'd wager that the vast majority of people had no idea these consultations were taking place - at least that's the most repeated comment I've heard on social media and on the street.
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As it seems to be on any scheme like this, no matter how much notice there is. It's a bit of a weird complaint really - lots of policy changes and general 'stuff' happens without everyone being consulted (or at least you don't know about them in advance if you're not paying attention and plugged into either the news (at a national level) or community groups (at a local level). If you agree with a change you don't then scream and shout about a lack of consultation. If you don't agree with it maybe you do. But what does that change - presumably if they'd been asked the people complaining about a lack of consultation would be saying "we want to be able to drive wherever we like" and at some point the answer would have been "sorry, but that's not what we're asking you".

There was years of consultation in Dulwich about Dulwich Village, and about Rosendale Road but still people were complaining about a lack of consultation. Ultimately the only consultation people are happy with is one that matches their own views...
 
thebackrow said:
As it seems to be on any scheme like this, no matter how much notice there is. It's a bit of a weird complaint really - lots of policy changes and general 'stuff' happens without everyone being consulted (or at least you don't know about them in advance if you're not paying attention and plugged into either the news (at a national level) or community groups (at a local level). If you agree with a change you don't then scream and shout about a lack of consultation. If you don't agree with it maybe you do. But what does that change - presumably if they'd been asked the people complaining about a lack of consultation would be saying "we want to be able to drive wherever we like" and at some point the answer would have been "sorry, but that's not what we're asking you".

There was years of consultation in Dulwich about Dulwich Village, and about Rosendale Road but still people were complaining about a lack of consultation. Ultimately the only consultation people are happy with is one that matches their own views...
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So you're just going to dismiss the huge amounts of local anger from people who feel they weren't consulted enough/at all based on your anecdote about Dulwich Village?

And your patronising blanket dismissal of everyone who is against the scheme isn't on either: there's plenty of people who are for LTNs but are against the implementation and the lack of community involvement in these ones.
 
thebackrow said:
Except it doesn't, as has been shown already - there's far more social housing within the area that benefits than there is on the surrounding roads, and in fact, the boundary roads don't seem to be predominantly social housing at all.
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nah. It's what you want to be the case, but it isn't.

Besdies, how much is the value of social housing increasing, Mr Foxtons?
 
Loose meat said:
nah. It's what you want to be the case, but it isn't.
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I know you don’t like pictures do maybe you could make me a spreadsheet or something with numbers to back up your case? Or could we just have some more catch phrases?. That’s more your thing isn’t it? You must have more than two. Can you try humour again? That was funny for all the wrong reasons.
 
editor said:
So you're just going to dismiss the huge amounts of local anger from people who feel they weren't consulted enough/at all based on your anecdote about Dulwich Village?
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The point was that the level of opposition and the arguments made by those opposing don't seem to change in cases where there has been long periods of consultation.

editor said:
And your patronising blanket dismissal of everyone who is against the scheme isn't on either: there's plenty of people who are for LTNs but are against the implementation and the lack of community involvement in these ones.
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and then the question becomes "what would you change?". These are being pitched as trials with an ongoing consultation - these people ARE being consulted, the community IS being involved as it goes on (stuff has been changed at Oval already). So the underlying complaints must go beyond 'we weren't consulted' or surely they would engage with the consultation now instead of marching on the town hall....
 
thebackrow said:
The point was that the level of opposition and the arguments made by those opposing don't seem to change in cases where there has been long periods of consultation.
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Except, there hasn't been a long period of consultation and a lot of people have had other things on their minds recently.

thebackrow said:
These are being pitched as trials with an ongoing consultation - these people ARE being consulted, the community IS being involved as it goes on (stuff has been changed at Oval already).
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Some people are getting involved with the consultation but its clear an awful lot aren't, and that's why they're pissed off. Judging but what I've read elsewhere, many had absolutely no idea that this was even happening, let alone there was a consultation supposedly going on. And even if people did find the confusingly-named websites, how many people are going to know what a 'node' is when it comes to their streets?

Thing is, I'm all for LTNs, but the reasons and the benefits need to be properly explained to locals who may be affected by them, and it's not fair to keep dismissing their concerns when it's clear many feel very strongly that there really hasn't been a comprehensive community consultation in advance of these changes.
 
The last few posts about consultation were initiated by this:

Screen Shot 2020-08-25 at 09.11.43.jpg

In other words, answering the claim that there has been "zero consultation".

This thread records when the ideas were first made public, which was May 2019.
 
editor said:
Except, there hasn't been a long period of consultation and a lot of people have had other things on their minds recently.

Some people are getting involved with the consultation but its clear an awful lot aren't, and that's why they're pissed off. Judging but what I've read elsewhere, many had absolutely no idea that this was even happening, let alone there was a consultation supposedly going on. And even if people did find the confusingly-named websites, how many people are going to know what a 'node' is when it comes to their streets?

Thing is, I'm all for LTNs, but the reasons and the benefits need to be properly explained to locals who may be affected by them, and it's not fair to keep dismissing their concerns when it's clear many feel very strongly that there really hasn't been a comprehensive community consultation in advance of these changes.
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May 2019 Buzz covered the Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood looks to make the area more walking and cycling-friendly
Feb 2020 Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood wants your feedback on how your streets could be improved specific to Railton.
Covered by Brixton Blog/Bugle as well. A shout-out for help with Brixton’s roads crisis - 22000 letters and flyers, businesses visited, schools, community groups.

There's a fair few people on this thread heavily involved in local community groups - if those groups are representative they would have surely reached out into the communities.

It's obvious that the people organising these protests know about the consultation but for some reason rather than telling people that they're protesting which is why I'm really not convinced that any amount of comms would have led to a different outcome now.
 
editor said:
Except, there hasn't been a long period of consultation and a lot of people have had other things on their minds recently.

Some people are getting involved with the consultation but its clear an awful lot aren't, and that's why they're pissed off. Judging but what I've read elsewhere, many had absolutely no idea that this was even happening, let alone there was a consultation supposedly going on. And even if people did find the confusingly-named websites, how many people are going to know what a 'node' is when it comes to their streets?

Thing is, I'm all for LTNs, but the reasons and the benefits need to be properly explained to locals who may be affected by them, and it's not fair to keep dismissing their concerns when it's clear many feel very strongly that there really hasn't been a comprehensive community consultation in advance of these changes.
Click to expand...

The LTNs are an emergency measure in reaction to the pandemic. The changes haven't been fully implemented, they're being actively tested. People can easily make their views clear now. It's pretty much the purest form of consultation.
 
teuchter said:
In other words, answering the claim that there has been "zero consultation".

This thread records when the ideas were first made public, which was May 2019.
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Its just game, surely you know that.

Do you think the people who feel the negative impact of this LTN in their lungs around Angell Town were consulted?
Do you think Claire Holland 'gamed' the response of satnav algorithyms to her traffic management policies?
Do you honestly think Lambeth Labour is that competent, or actually thinks that well?
'Would you like additional pollution on the streets around your children's school?'
'Would you like more danger on the streets here so others can benefit by £30,000'
'How about £50,000?'

Hope someone brings a sign to this protest: Black Lungs Matter
 
The One Lambeth Facebook group is one whole weird set of anti Khan / TFL loonery.

Warning letters for passing through the Railton ANPR (HH end) are going out now.
 
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editor said:
There's a fair few people on this thread heavily involved in local community groups - if those groups are representative they would have surely reached out into the communities.
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Yes. In Loughborough Junction . In LJ there is not a lot of support for Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood. So far the Council have left LJ alone.

Consultation on the Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood in LJ ( LJ is in the boundary) had started but was cut short due to the pandemic.

Council have wisely not tried to impose a LTN on LJ using emergency powers they have during pandemic.

There has been local support for pavement widening in LJ.

I look at what is happening in other areas and feel the Council didnt learn the lessons of the failed road closures in LJ.

Fact is the consultation on Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood was only in early stages. Pandemic cut it short.

Council decided to put in place schemes without full consultation using emergency powers it has during pandemic

No wonder some people aren't happy. They might be the people who wold oppose it anyway. Doing it the way the Council has means they are left open to accusation of not consulting. Which they haven't.

There is also the suspicion by some that these schemes are permanent. That the Council are not being genuine when they say full consultation will happen later.

Council could deal with this by saying the emergency LTNs are temporary and they will consult later. People will get choice to keep them or get rid of them. Or alter them ( example remove Shakespeare road filter. )
 
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Gramsci said:
There is also the suspicion by some that these schemes are permanent. That the Council are not being genuine when they say full consultation will happen later.

Council could deal with this by saying the emergency LTNs are temporary and they will consult later. People will get choice to keep them or get rid of them. Or alter them ( example remove Shakespeare road filter. )
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Everything I've read and heard about LTN's (from officers and Cllrs as well LBL online info) indicate to me that this is exactly what is happening. They are a temporary measure put in place due to the need for quick action, they will be consulted on 'in real time', changes will be made according to feedback during the course of the 18 month trial and if, at the end of the 'experiment' the data shows that things have not worked then they will not become permanent. Now is the chance for people to have a say
 
Perhaps it's coincidental that the Railton LTN in particular feeds into the council leaderships almost fetishising of a pseudo bistro culture along the bottom end of Atlantic Road. Absolutely no one at the town hall is girding their loins at the prospect of people pouring out of the Oval/Brixton theatre and marvelling at the range of outdoor eateries extending along ye olde Frontline. Meanwhile, those in social housing can eat cake.
 
Ahh Walthamstow. The poster boy of the LTN crowd. What does it show us? From other forums:

This is all from the data the council released:


  • Traffic reduced by one percent. Walking and cycling up heavily but bear in mind there is the possibility of dirty data - original survey was September (possibly bad weather, schools, etc) and follow up survey was June/July -(so better weather and possibly schools closed.
  • Residents view on journeys. Heavy swing to worse - i.e even if you are in an LTN....you're surrounded by traffic when you want to get out.
  • Net results shows traffic swing to only have improved by 1%
  • When residents decided to leave a comment it was 'open the roads please'.
  • Only 2...not 2%...just two visitors to the area said the LTN made them decide to change their method of transport (and it doesn't say what the change was!)
  • 47% of businesses say customer numbers decreased. 53% say turnover decreased. They do not split out 'increased' and 'stayed the same' which is worrying from an analysis point of view
  • 56% of businesses said their suppliers had difficulty reaching them
  • 46% of businesses against the scheme

 
Jeanette Moo said:
Ahh Walthamstow. The poster boy of the LTN crowd. What does it show us? From other forums:

This is all from the data the council released:


  • Traffic reduced by one percent. Walking and cycling up heavily but bear in mind there is the possibility of dirty data - original survey was September (possibly bad weather, schools, etc) and follow up survey was June/July -(so better weather and possibly schools closed.
  • Residents view on journeys. Heavy swing to worse - i.e even if you are in an LTN....you're surrounded by traffic when you want to get out.
  • Net results shows traffic swing to only have improved by 1%
  • When residents decided to leave a comment it was 'open the roads please'.
  • Only 2...not 2%...just two visitors to the area said the LTN made them decide to change their method of transport (and it doesn't say what the change was!)
  • 47% of businesses say customer numbers decreased. 53% say turnover decreased. They do not split out 'increased' and 'stayed the same' which is worrying from an analysis point of view
  • 56% of businesses said their suppliers had difficulty reaching them
  • 46% of businesses against the scheme
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You did all this already, a few days ago. Or was that someone else?
 
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