Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

Go and knock on the doors of all the businesses on Dulwich Rd and ask, ask today they are there they will tell you just like owner of Hamilton’s has posted on LTAG what’s app today.
If you are seriously interested you will investigate, you might don’t like what they say but you will hear for yourself.
Lambeths ‘shop local’ campaign has missed the point specifically, with all residents best intentions local shoppers are not enough by themselves to keep local businesses afloat.

There's a good amount of evidence that businesses may overestimate the amount of their customers who arrive by car. In particular there was a survey about this that was done about businesses on the Lea Bridge Road in Waltham Forest. Some evidence is here

 
If you're saying that LTNs are disproportionately affecting the BAME community it would really help if you gave some specific examples.
If traffic is diverting of its own accord, or is being sent - by satnav, or whatever - through estates or other areas in which a higher percentage of BAME people live, instead of going the way it used to go pre-LTN, then how can that not be environental-based racism?

Angell Town - with its far higher ethnic population - sees higher air pollution, greater noise pollution, greater danger for the children on the streets, while the Sharp Elbows get their middle-class urban paradise, and a proper Foxton-uptick to boot!
 
Last edited:
Needless to say, the Victorians didn't have widespread cars, if any at all. I'm pretty sure Railton road would pre-date motor cars.
Which is why I mentioned a century of use. Trying to pretend that London streets were designed for something other than for Londoners and others to use to get about is just absurd.
 
I don’t have to do anything! If you want to make an argument against what I’m saying you go and talk to those ppl and prove me and them wrong! If you’re interested in them and their livelihoods go and ask! I’ve spent two months talking to strangers who clearly don’t care one way or the other. I haven’t got time for you mate. It’s clearly just a strategy to keep ppl occupied. I’m going down to Dulwich road now if you are interested to drop off some leaflets, coming?
Yup, you've no obligation to persuade me or others who are broadly supportive of the LTNs that what you're saying makes sense. But doesn't make sense to me. I think the idea that businesses are struggling primarily due to the introduction of an LTN, and not due to the ongoing covid situation which has disrupted pretty much everything, is misguided, and that there are marginalised groups who can be affected positively in big ways by a transport strategy that includes LTNs. But you're not interested, so fair enough. You'll drop leaflets and I'll type stuff on here.
 
If traffic is diverting of its own accord, or is being sent - by satnav, or whatever - through estates or other areas in which a higher percentage of BAME people live, instead of going the way it used to go pre-LTN, then how can that not be environental-based racism?

Angell Town - with its far higher ethnic population - sees higher air pollution, greater noise pollution, greater danger for the children on the streets, while the Sharp Elbows get their middle-class urban paradise, and a proper Foxton-uptick to boot!
As it has been pointed out before, most social housing estates are already low traffic neighbourhoods by design and it's not possible to drive through them.
 
As it has been pointed out before, most social housing estates are already low traffic neighbourhoods by design and it's not possible to drive through them.
Depending on the angle of opposition, they are either in areas where there is suddenly loads of polluting traffic due to LTNs, or they are in areas where there's suddenly no traffic due to LTNs and local businesses can't get any customers because they all used to come by car.
 
As it has been pointed out before, most social housing estates are already low traffic neighbourhoods by design and it's not possible to drive through them.
Have you heard of Coldharbour Lane (inc. Barrier Block), Loughborogh Road, Gresham Road and Barrington Road? Look em up on your new satnav system.
 
There's a good amount of evidence that businesses may overestimate the amount of their customers who arrive by car. In particular there was a survey about this that was done about businesses on the Lea Bridge Road in Waltham Forest. Some evidence is here


One case in Brixton still wrankles.

Reminded of it by one of the cycling campaigners who brought it up recently.

The loss of Brixton Market car park on what is now the Pop site. This was due to the Streatham Council/ Tescos redevelopment of the leisre centre/ ice rink.

Tescos told Lambeth that to finish the scheme the ice rink had to have temporary home.

The home was Brixton Market traders losing the car park.

I supported the market traders on this. The Cllrs were pushing the Green argument.

What annoyed me was the the Council were going to allow Tescos a car park in Streatham but the market traders were going to get theirs taken away.

If Councils are going to have a fair level playing field big companies like Tesco need to be told no parking allowed.

Im all for FAIR transition to Green economy. Its not what Im seeing at local level.
 
The negative response to LTNs is based on an assumption that there is no real transport option other than driving. It is precisely this cultural assumption that LTNs are looking to challenge (and even then, there is no denial of access).

We also have the Schrödinger’s LTN - people within the zone are unfairly prejudiced because they must drive further to leave the zone. Also people within the zone are unfairly favoured because their house prices will increase.

IMO the increasing negative response is largely the fault of Lambeth Council not doing the work of consultation. But using the Pandemic to fast track these schemes. Something you have previously posted you are happy with.

Not the only poster here to say that early on in this thread.

Challenging cultural assumptions requires political work by the Labour Council. I remember being told they had learnt lessons from what happened with the LJ road closures and this time the consultation was to be different. Work was to be done to get local communites onside.

Instead they have gone down the route of imposing this on communities.

That is the problem.

It could be that the Council have taken view that this time they can ride out and ignore opposition. Work with favoured groups and stuff the rest.

Have to see if this tactic works. Didn't work in LJ. It also causes long lasting resentments from my experience.
 
Last edited:
It could be that the Council have taken view that this time they can ride out and ignore opposition. Work with favoured groups and stuff the rest.

Have to see if this tactic works. Didn't work in LJ. It also causes long lasting resentments from my experience.
I would have said that it's a different group of politicians making decisions now - as compared with 2015/16 - but people like Jim Dickson should have known, should have seen this coming. Instead he was lauding it as 'necessary becasue of the climate crisis'. Regardless of the merits of the scheme, that's politically clueless.

So on the basis of how they were selling this 8 weeks ago, I would say they (a) didn't expect this level of opposition when it was so obvious and (b) they truly believe they can ride this out. Now, not so much.

What is quite interesting is as well as the Greens turning a deaf 'un, Helen Hayes is staying well away. In the end she came out against the LJ scheme but only near the death. She would have to find different grounds in order to support the Railton area LTN.
 
Which is why I mentioned a century of use. Trying to pretend that London streets were designed for something other than for Londoners and others to use to get about is just absurd.
Trying to pretend they were for motor cars which weren’t even invented yet is absurd.
 
If you're saying that LTNs are disproportionately affecting the BAME community it would really help if you gave some specific examples.
ILL D0 IN CAPS. IN THE HOPE YOU ARE LISTENING. TUMBLES LAUNDERETTE ( go and ask him) Paul at Stanley Mini Market (back Monday go ask)
Ahmet Hamilton’s posted today on LTAG hes Turkish but is struggling in the same way (all his points clearly visible today on WhatsApp although. he’s probably been ignored as that’s the new way to avoid anything that dints ‘the brand’) and relays on businesses outside of the area travelling by car.
( forgot initials but think it K&J audio). the off license, Bugers& Milkshake, V source, Little Ouchie, Pablos Bar, express corner plus all the take away food places you see, & Joe of the Florence, the manager thought cutting roads ‘would’ effect punters ( I asked him a few weeks ago, he might have changed his mind?)
So you go and ask them I have. Next week I’ll be filming them. Now it’s your turn go and ask them or better still, go and tell them they are mistaken they don’t know their customers because the benefits of the LTN can not be doubted by anyone. An you have the 18yr old paper to prove it. Better still you upload that report now and we can all go through it for a laugh.
 
Ok sorry I hadn't realised you were talking about 'returners' and BAME owned businesses as two separate issues. I was only responding to the first issue regarding so called rat running
No not separate in this area those returning and supporting families are BAME & non BAME but BAME visitors are also committed, regular customers of those BAME owned businesses here in lies another flaw in the LTN scheme which is damaging many local businesses, livelihoods and threatens the diversity of this area.
 
ILL D0 IN CAPS. IN THE HOPE YOU ARE LISTENING. TUMBLES LAUNDERETTE ( go and ask him) Paul at Stanley Mini Market (back Monday go ask)
Ahmet Hamilton’s posted today on LTAG hes Turkish but is struggling in the same way (all his points clearly visible today on WhatsApp although. he’s probably been ignored as that’s the new way to avoid anything that dints ‘the brand’) and relays on businesses outside of the area travelling by car.
( forgot initials but think it K&J audio). the off license, Bugers& Milkshake, V source, Little Ouchie, Pablos Bar, express corner plus all the take away food places you see, & Joe of the Florence, the manager thought cutting roads ‘would’ effect punters ( I asked him a few weeks ago, he might have changed his mind?)
So you go and ask them I have. Next week I’ll be filming them. Now it’s your turn go and ask them or better still, go and tell them they are mistaken they don’t know their customers because the benefits of the LTN can not be doubted by anyone. An you have the 18yr old paper to prove it. Better still you upload that report now and we can all go through it for a laugh.
Most of those are not on the LTN, surely they are benefiting by an extra traffic coming down dulwich road?.
Maybe K&J audio have been affected because people don’t want to spend money on car stereos when there’s a f**king pandemic going on??
 
ILL D0 IN CAPS. IN THE HOPE YOU ARE LISTENING. TUMBLES LAUNDERETTE ( go and ask him) Paul at Stanley Mini Market (back Monday go ask)
Ahmet Hamilton’s posted today on LTAG hes Turkish but is struggling in the same way (all his points clearly visible today on WhatsApp although. he’s probably been ignored as that’s the new way to avoid anything that dints ‘the brand’) and relays on businesses outside of the area travelling by car.
( forgot initials but think it K&J audio). the off license, Bugers& Milkshake, V source, Little Ouchie, Pablos Bar, express corner plus all the take away food places you see, & Joe of the Florence, the manager thought cutting roads ‘would’ effect punters ( I asked him a few weeks ago, he might have changed his mind?)
So you go and ask them I have. Next week I’ll be filming them. Now it’s your turn go and ask them or better still, go and tell them they are mistaken they don’t know their customers because the benefits of the LTN can not be doubted by anyone. An you have the 18yr old paper to prove it. Better still you upload that report now and we can all go through it for a laugh.

The owner of the Hamilton is Kurdish. All of these businesses may be doing less trade but you can't claim that's solely, or even partially, because of LTNs. Where's the evidence? Nine of the 11 businesses you mention are outside the LTN and should if anything be seeing an increase in traffic.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, there isn’t a through road from Loughborough road south onto Shakespeare, why is that?. Because the Moorlands estate is an LTN already.
It's a stuggle to think that after all this discussion, you still haven't got hold of the basics. I'm going to disengage with you after this becasue it's too hard but in case it helps I will say again; LTNs are not themselves, the issue the problem with the Railton area LTN is the consequences for others - others paying the price for the gain for some. That's about the 8th time. People in areas like Gresham Road and CHL and Loughborough Road all have a poorer quality of life as a result, and those areas are more BAME.

Fwiw, Moorlands has to be an LTN even if it wasn't designed as such - why, becasue it has railway lines on three sides; you can't go anyway, it will always have low traffic.
 
The owner of the Hamilton is Kurdish. All of these businesses may be doing less trade but you can't claim that's solely, or even partially, because of LTNs. Where's the evidence? Nine of the 11 businesses you mention are outside the LTN and should if anything be seeing an increase in traffic.
This blokes a ‘wind up merchant’ anyone else plz go and ask the shopkeepers locally, they need your support. If you have access to WhatsApp plz take a look at what the owner of Hamilton’s has to say.If you believe like wurlycurly that BAME traders on Dulwich Rd don’t deserve a voice in all this and their communities are not part of the LTN then it’s a perfect example of what one size fits all planning & lack of full community consultation achieves.
 

Attachments

  • 4205DDEA-6369-4248-9969-56FA3E99D708.png
    4205DDEA-6369-4248-9969-56FA3E99D708.png
    638.7 KB · Views: 29
  • 2CB52BE1-F288-4DAF-8919-B4553458B74C.png
    2CB52BE1-F288-4DAF-8919-B4553458B74C.png
    649.7 KB · Views: 29
  • C286EBE2-E5FD-4A09-8BA7-8748A7EE1862.jpeg
    C286EBE2-E5FD-4A09-8BA7-8748A7EE1862.jpeg
    300.8 KB · Views: 27
It's a stuggle to think that after all this discussion, you still haven't got hold of the basics. I'm going to disengage with you after this becasue it's too hard but in case it helps I will say again; LTNs are not themselves, the issue the problem with the Railton area LTN is the consequences for others - others paying the price for the gain for some. That's about the 8th time. People in areas like Gresham Road and CHL and Loughborough Road all have a poorer quality of life as a result, and those areas are more BAME.

Fwiw, Moorlands has to be an LTN even if it wasn't designed as such - why, becasue it has railway lines on three sides; you can't go anyway, it will always have low traffic.
Gresham road is miles away from Railton, Loughborough is actually a really good example of a road which isn’t a through road, if you want to go south you have to go down to Brixton or LJ. They could have brought it through onto Mayall but they didn’t because of through traffic. Why would there be more traffic on that road?.
 
This blokes a ‘wind up merchant’ anyone else plz go and ask the shopkeepers locally, they need your support. If you have access to WhatsApp plz take a look at what the owner of Hamilton’s has to say.If you believe like wurlycurly that BAME traders on Dulwich Rd don’t deserve a voice in all this and their communities are not part of the LTN then it’s a perfect example of what one size fits all planning & lack of full community consultation achieves.
All shops are struggling because of COVID, but wurlycurlys right - there should be more traffic on dulwich road, so the shops there should do better - that’s how it works, yeah?
 
This blokes a ‘wind up merchant’ anyone else plz go and ask the shopkeepers locally, they need your support. If you have access to WhatsApp plz take a look at what the owner of Hamilton’s has to say.If you believe like wurlycurly that BAME traders on Dulwich Rd don’t deserve a voice in all this and their communities are not part of the LTN then it’s a perfect example of what one size fits all planning & lack of full community consultation achieves.

I'm not winding you up. I'd be concerned about your BAME community concerns if you could prove they were justified. My wife is black, diabetic and over 55, ie a high-risk group for Covid. She's been outside once in the past six months (Brockwell Park). I've been supporting her by also strictly avoiding people wherever practical. Almost nobody wears masks in the Hamilton, so my four visits a day (approx) have fallen to zero. I've similarly not used the Chutney, the Golden Canton, Wish, the newsagent across from the Half Moon, the Florence. I've not been in a pub for six months for the first time in 42 years. Millions of businesses UK-wide are struggling during the pandemic because of behaviour like mine, not because of LTNs.
 
I read the whatsapp screenshots above, of the post form the owner of the Hamilton.

If there's something like a record of Paypoint transactions, that's recorded consistently over a long period, and it shows a significant change happening around the time when the LN was introduced, against a background of no Covid-related change then I think that should be taken seriously. If I was involved in the scheme or a local councillor I'd want to go and talk to him and look at these records. I hope someone's doing that.

Earlier in the thread it was reported that this shop supported the LN scheme at the outset. If that's true, then it adds credence to any concerns they are raising. It should remove suspicion that information is being presented selectively in order to support an already-established position.

I'd want to understand what is going on. I'd want to look at the records over a longer period, and look at weekly averages for a good few weeks prior to and following the introduction. I don't want to dismiss the possibility that this shop has lost some trade from people stopping by in cars - that's not implausible. I'd want to make a best effort at quantifying the impact and I'd want to see if things changed over the next few weeks/months. It raises quite a few questions. It woud appear to suggest that most of this trade was from people outside of the LN area, because as I understand it, if they were driving from within the area then they would still be able to do so now.

Of course, if it's the case that it represents trade from people passing through, rather than local residents, then that's a direct consequence of the LN succeeding in one of its aims. That of course is of no help to the business owner.

In theory the LN should mean that things like corner shops within the area lose some trade and gain some new trade. If it does mean that some people who previously might have driven to a shop outside the zone now find that less convenient, then they ought to end up doing that less often and using their local shops more often. These kinds of changes take a little while to take effect which would be one reason to keep an eye on what happens in the coming weeks to see if things improve.

I believe that's something that was generally reported during lockdown - some local shops were doing better than normal, because people had changed their shopping habits. Of course, there's also the factor of larger numbers of people working from home.

Interesting that in the whatsapp comment, it's also mentioned that these same payments remained constant and at normal levels throughout lockdown. If the now-missing trade came from people driving through the area between other places - then would you not also expect that trade to have quite significantly dropped during the period of "proper" lockdown?

Anyway, I'd want to look at these payment records if they were offered (I don't mean they should be offered publicly - I mean if a local councillor or MP or Lambeth scheme representative were able to look at them with the owner) and try and get a good picture of what's happening. While the figures as presented do seem quite persuasive, there's not a whole lot that can be concluded without looking at them properly in context.
 
Have you heard of Coldharbour Lane (inc. Barrier Block), Loughborogh Road, Gresham Road and Barrington Road? Look em up on your new satnav system.
I know those streets - but last time I walked down them, they were not social housing estates but rather roads with a mix of housing all types and businesses. However, I could be wrong of course, so do you fancy meeting up for a stroll so you can show me? Coffee/tea/beverage of your choice is on me :)
 
I'm pretty sure that the takings at the Hamilton are down but as you say, these schemes take time to bed down. Lots of very accurate data of all different types will be available in, say, six months' time. I'm also equally sure that a huge number of cyclists, and walkers, are now using Railton Road. The Hamilton is certain to attract trade from these people, especially if there's somewhere safe to tether their steeds. Amed is panicking a bit because his was The Busiest Shop In The World during the early stages of the pandemic, thanks to his super-diligent and hugely appreciated stock-replenishing efforts (toilet rolls during the panic buying, tins of food, in fact pretty much anything). I strongly suspect his trade will exceed pre-LTN levels when the scheme is fully bedded in, simply because more feet will be passing his shop.
 
I know those streets - but last time I walked down them, they were not social housing estates but rather roads with a mix of housing all types and businesses. However, I could be wrong of course, so do you fancy meeting up for a stroll so you can show me? Coffee/tea/beverage of your choice is on me :)

"Sharp elbows, sharp elbows, house-price rises, MS Paint, elbows, Mmmmm, this coffee's nice."
 
By the way. I've been thinking quite a bit about "North" Shakespeare Rd. Partly because I've been using it as my walking route between Herne Hill and Loughborough Junction recently, to check out what's going on with the LN.

There's no question it's problematic, including it into a Livable Neighbourhood. This, I'd say, is mainly because of bad town planning decisions made in the past.

There are a couple of stretches of Victorian terrace but a lot of it was redeveloped in (I assume) the 80s or 90s, largely on the former railway lands.

If you look at both of those housing developments - the one that stretches along almost all of its east side, and the one on the other side of the road at its north end, you can see they are both done in a kind of cul-de-sac arrangement with off-street parking allocated to all or most of the housing units. It seems they gave everyone parking space, but included no shop units whatsoever. That's now an entirely outdated approach and if the same sites were developed now, that would not happen. It's a great way to generate car dependancy: give everyone a parking space but don't provide any services within easy walking distance.

It's really a very long road to be devoid of a single shop along its length. This is compounded by the fact that it's entirely isolated - you can only get in or out of the street at each end, even as a pedestrian. I don't know if that's by design or just an accident of history. A couple of pedestrian routes through to Loughborough Park, or a bridge over the railway line, would change things substantially.

Furthermore, it's got no public transport running along it (in this it kind of parallels - literally - the Milkwood Bus Chasm).

So, if you live somewhere around the middle of Shakespeare Rd, you have to walk quite a long way (at least by Zone 2 London standards) to access shops or public transport.

What's been created is a kind of enclave of car dependancy, which perhaps makes it less surprising that much of the objection to the LN comes from those living on this street. If you live in something that's been designed to make you use a car, and then one of your two routes out is blocked to cars, then that's going to feel different than it would if you live somewhere that's designed so that you can easily walk to a shop, or to a bus stop. What's being asked of Shakespeare Rd residents is actually different to what's being asked of those in the Railton Rd area, because the "pedestrian" alternatives are not there in quite the same way.

That's not the fault of the residents, it's the fault of decisions made in an era when it was considered ok to pander to the demand for car ownership at the expense of those without.

I don't know what the solution is in the short term. In the longer term - I'd hope that any new developments along the road, especially in its middle parts, would be encouraged to provide space for a couple of shops. I'd look to make pedestrian connections through to Loughborough Park too. Maybe see if a bus route could be provided along Shakespeare Rd.

I'm not keen on the idea of LN resident car owners getting an ANPR free pass for the modal filters. But the more I think about it, I do think it could be justified for N Shakespeare Rd residents because of the unique nature of their situation. If it's technically feasible I think it should be looked at seriously.

Another thought about ANPR passes (more generally) is that they could be offered as grandfather rights - in other words you get one if you live in the area when a scheme is introduced, but if you move in after that point, you don't. So over time the number of people holding them decreases.
 
Back
Top Bottom