Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[newbie]

roads are designed for different purposes. Roads in residential areas are not designed to carry non-local through traffic which is better accommodated on main roads.

Was Hackney designed differently from Lambeth when the Victorians laid out the roads? If the design intention was to exclude through traffic then there wouldn't have been a century of Londoners using residential areas to permeate.

That document, part council explanation, part transparent campaigning, just emphasises how little regard our betters have for the peasants.

They promise an 18 month 'trial' but no opportunity for anyone other than residents and businesses to have a say, and theirs ends after 6 months.

It's obvious that these schemes will become permanent.

DoT says

• 
  Permanent: this process includes prior consultation on the proposed scheme design, a 21-day notice period for statutory consultees and others who can log objections; there can be a public inquiry in some circumstances.
• Experimental: these are used to trial schemes that may then be made permanent. Authorities may put in place monitoring arrangements, and carry out ongoing consultation once the measure is built. Although the initial implementation period can be quick, the need for extra monitoring and consultation afterwards makes them a more onerous process overall.
• Temporary: these can be in place for up to 18 months. There is a 7-day notice period prior to making the TRO and a 14-day notification requirement after it is made, plus publicity requirements. These are most suitable for putting in place temporary measures and road closures.

No requirement for monitoring or consultation on temporary schemes.
And 'mandatory cycle lanes'.

 

[teuchter]

As if the Victorians laid out London's streets in anticipation of 21st century traffic patterns and nothing's changed since then

 

[Brassed off]

Yes, a radical change like this will get dragged down by nimbys until it’s meaningless.

That means that essential checks and balances that communities have to protect themselves are lost, with huge unforeseen consequences. One of the distasteful things about LTN’s is ‘born & bread’ city locals who move out of borough ie: many Brixton born folk more to Croydon, Norwood, Streatham ect will return to support & care for family members on a daily basis, multi visits in a week. These South Londoners are now called’rat runners’ their significance as carers & supporters of local businesses is ignored and has not been factored in.
In the case of Brixton huge majority of these ‘Brixton born’ residents are BAME. So we have Black South Londoners denied access/ (access made extremely difficult) to important cultural hubs
That is social engineering ( unintended perhaps) but it’s happening & the businesses who rely on their custom can’t survive. That’s a feature of an LTN implemented by those who are not local and haven’t investigated the important, delicate balance in multi cultural cohesion & business success.

 

[Gramsci]

Traffic displacement onto other roads

This is a common fear when residential road closures are installed which assumes that trips which used to pass along a road simply divert to other roads when that road is closed and problems are shifted to those other roads. This ignores the fact that roads are designed for different purposes. Roads in residential areas are not designed to carry non-local through traffic which is better accommodated on main roads.

Problem with this line of argument is that in London main roads are also sometimes residential. Coldharbour lane for example.

 

[alex_]

Twat.

4.9m = 16 feet
View attachment 227291View attachment 227292

so a bridge below the maximum height could be described as a low bridge ?

 

[teuchter]

So we have Black South Londoners denied access/ (access made extremely difficult) to important cultural hubs

That's not really true is it?

 

[Winot]

The negative response to LTNs is based on an assumption that there is no real transport option other than driving. It is precisely this cultural assumption that LTNs are looking to challenge (and even then, there is no denial of access).

We also have the Schrödinger’s LTN - people within the zone are unfairly prejudiced because they must drive further to leave the zone. Also people within the zone are unfairly favoured because their house prices will increase.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Was Hackney designed differently from Lambeth when the Victorians laid out the roads? If the design intention was to exclude through traffic then there wouldn't have been a century of Londoners using residential areas to permeate.

Needless to say, the Victorians didn't have widespread cars, if any at all. I'm pretty sure Railton road would pre-date motor cars.

 

[teuchter]

Needless to say, the Victorians didn't have widespread cars, if any at all. I'm pretty sure Railton road would pre-date motor cars.

They also built railways to deal with a lot of the load we now force onto the road network - freight deliveries for example.
Shakespeare Rd runs alongside what was once a big freight sorting yard. Goods would arrive and be re-sorted there before going onwards to various smaller yards throughout London.
Now we sort stuff for redistribution in places like Daventry in the Midlands and it arrives into London in lorries via the road network. Unsurprisingly Victorian streets, intended really for more local traffic, aren't all that great for this.
Nonetheless in the time since, some roads have become designated "main" roads because they happen to be wide enough, or have been widened by removing front gardens, or entirely reconstructed post war. They have become altered to accommodate heavier traffic. Railton Rd and the majority of residential streets haven't. The Victorians didn't lay them out to cope well with lots of motor traffic, and that remains the case.

 

[RoyReed]

Also people within the zone are unfairly favoured because their house prices will increase.

Not if they're renting!

 

[Brassed off]

That's not really true is it?

If you ask businesses and they are all there with their doors open, you will hear it first hand just as I have done. It’s true don’t take my word for it. Plz, plz ask them. That’s who they know to be their customers and where they come from, so at the moment that’s why those businesses are struggling.
If ‘traffic evaporation’ turns out to be the ‘holy grail it’s being presented as then those customers will find different modes of transport. But what’s clear is they and their reasons to journey here have been this far ‘discounted & under estimated. Plz ask yourselves.

 

[teuchter]

If you ask businesses and they are all there with their doors open, you will hear it first hand just as I have done. It’s true don’t take my word for it. Plz, plz ask them. That’s who they know to be their customers and where they come from, so at the moment that’s why those businesses are struggling.
If ‘traffic evaporation’ turns out to be the ‘holy grail it’s being presented as then those customers will find different modes of transport. But what’s clear is they and their reasons to journey here have been this far ‘discounted & under estimated. Plz ask yourselves.

What kind of businesses do you mean - small businesses like corner shops within the LTNs? Are you saying that they have lost customers because those customers used to come to the area to care for or visit relatives, and they have stopped doing that because it's now too difficult to get there?

 

[sparkybird]

One of the distasteful things about LTN’s is ‘born & bread’ city locals who move out of borough ie: many Brixton born folk more to Croydon, Norwood, Streatham ect will return to support & care for family members on a daily basis, multi visits in a week. These South Londoners are now called’rat runners’ their significance as carers & supporters of local businesses is ignored and has not been factored in.
In the case of Brixton huge majority of these ‘Brixton born’ residents are BAME. So we have Black South Londoners denied access/ (access made extremely difficult) to important cultural hubs
That is social engineering ( unintended perhaps) but it’s happening & the businesses who rely on their custom can’t survive. That’s a feature of an LTN implemented by those who are not local and haven’t investigated the important, delicate balance in multi cultural cohesion & business success.

Whoa! I didn't see anyone suggesting that people who visit friends/family inside an LTN are a 'rat runners' - they have a reason to be there and can still get exactly to where they need to go, albeit it might be via a different route. To call it social engineering is some stretch of the imagination IMO. Does the same not apply then to non-BAME south Londoners who have moved out to the suburbs and come back to visit friends and family?
What I view as 'rat running' is traffic which has no reason to be in an LTN and should be using the main A roads, but chose to avoid them as a perceived short cut - usually thanks to Google maps/Waze/sat navs and the majority of these cars and lorries are not local.

 

[Loose meat]

LOL. Check out sparkybird with the apps news ..

I'm interested in ideas about 'social engineering' and 'segregtion' but what's been said so far isn't going to resonate. These arguments need to be properly grounded - they're not goingto get the same emotional-led latitude as, for example, some of the BLM themes.

 

[wurlycurly]

That means that essential checks and balances that communities have to protect themselves are lost, with huge unforeseen consequences. One of the distasteful things about LTN’s is ‘born & bread’ city locals who move out of borough ie: many Brixton born folk more to Croydon, Norwood, Streatham ect will return to support & care for family members on a daily basis, multi visits in a week. These South Londoners are now called’rat runners’ their significance as carers & supporters of local businesses is ignored and has not been factored in.
In the case of Brixton huge majority of these ‘Brixton born’ residents are BAME. So we have Black South Londoners denied access/ (access made extremely difficult) to important cultural hubs
That is social engineering ( unintended perhaps) but it’s happening & the businesses who rely on their custom can’t survive. That’s a feature of an LTN implemented by those who are not local and haven’t investigated the important, delicate balance in multi cultural cohesion & business success.

I'm not sure that access to anywhere has been made extremely difficult. Can you provide some examples of black south Londoners being denied access to important cultural hubs?

 

[Loose meat]

It's not helpful to just assert this stuff. Sucks the air out of stronger arguments.

 

[thebackrow]

It's not helpful to just assert this stuff. Sucks the air out of stronger arguments.

What are those? something something sharp elbows?

 

[wurlycurly]

What are those? something something sharp elbows?

Get with the programme mate. "Nonsense drivel sharp elbows house-price rises bitterness (and low bridges) ...."

 

[Loose meat]

"Now here! Just simply gaze at my masterful mapping creation in MS Paint at how simly wonderful policy is under the simply magical rule of Fairy God Mother Claire Hollnd" "How much did Foxton's say, dahling - REALLY !"

 

[snowy_again]

Is that actually funny when you say it in your head?

 

[Brassed off]

I'm not sure that access to anywhere has been made extremely difficult. Can you provide some examples of black south Londoners being denied access to important cultural hubs?

Go and knock on the doors of all the businesses on Dulwich Rd and ask, ask today they are there they will tell you just like owner of Hamilton’s has posted on LTAG what’s app today.
If you are seriously interested you will investigate, you might don’t like what they say but you will hear for yourself.
Lambeths ‘shop local’ campaign has missed the point specifically, with all residents best intentions local shoppers are not enough by themselves to keep local businesses afloat.

 

[Brassed off]

Whoa! I didn't see anyone suggesting that people who visit friends/family inside an LTN are a 'rat runners' - they have a reason to be there and can still get exactly to where they need to go, albeit it might be via a different route. To call it social engineering is some stretch of the imagination IMO. Does the same not apply then to non-BAME south Londoners who have moved out to the suburbs and come back to visit friends and family?
What I view as 'rat running' is traffic which has no reason to be in an LTN and should be using the main A roads, but chose to avoid them as a perceived short cut - usually thanks to Google maps/Waze/sat navs and the majority of these cars and lorries are not local.

The LTN methodology has cut off roads making it very difficult for returning locals to ‘easily access’ families or as carers for those families South Londoners are now having to navigate several LTN’s in order to make their way back home. BAME is spoken about here to very ‘specifically’ identify businesses in this area BAME run and owned that are struggling because their customer base can’t easily visit. It’s businesses with those specific characteristics that are I trouble, because the blanket approach of an LTN has no nuance approach as to who gets to go where. Go and ask for yourself they will all be down their tonight.

 

[teuchter]

Go and knock on the doors of all the businesses on Dulwich Rd and ask, ask today they are there they will tell you just like owner of Hamilton’s has posted on LTAG what’s app today.
If you are seriously interested you will investigate, you might don’t like what they say but you will hear for yourself.
Lambeths ‘shop local’ campaign has missed the point specifically, with all residents best intentions local shoppers are not enough by themselves to keep local businesses afloat.

You need to explain a plausible reasoning as to why these businesses are suffering as a result of the LTNs. I don't doubt that many businesses are struggling just now. But I can think of some other things that are happening just at the moment.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Go and knock on the doors of all the businesses on Dulwich Rd and ask, ask today they are there they will tell you just like owner of Hamilton’s has posted on LTAG what’s app today.
If you are seriously interested you will investigate, you might don’t like what they say but you will hear for yourself.
Lambeths ‘shop local’ campaign has missed the point specifically, with all residents best intentions local shoppers are not enough by themselves to keep local businesses afloat.

Dulwich road isn't part of the LTN, if anything it should be busier, Covid will also have hit peoples shopping habits.

 

[Brassed off]

LOL. Check out sparkybird with the apps news ..

I'm interested in ideas about 'social engineering' and 'segregtion' but what's been said so far isn't going to resonate. These arguments need to be properly grounded - they're not goingto get the same emotional-led latitude as, for example, some of the BLM themes.

Well I’m not a member of the BAME community, but it is very much a BLM issue as it’s BAME livelihoods that are being affected and with all the best intentions to criticise an LTN in anyway is to find yourself pitted against political progressives who will not accept that something they believe in so passionately might impact a marginalised group, who they seek to empathise with or be affiliated too. so ppl would rather shoot you down then take a step bk and ask what are the ‘specifics’ on the ground where I live. So this is my understanding of what’s happening locally, it’s not my training I’ve just made enquires because I found myself on the ‘wrong side’ of an LTN and so have tried to understand it’s ramifications and I’m supporting and supported by my neighbours in the process. And I’m shitting myself because it worries me that Brixton will be like Nothing Hill gate really really soon, it happened there it’s happening here and I think we could do better.

 

[Brassed off]

You need to explain a plausible reasoning as to why these businesses are suffering as a result of the LTNs. I don't doubt that many businesses are struggling just now. But I can think of some other things that are happening just at the moment.

I don’t have to do anything! If you want to make an argument against what I’m saying you go and talk to those ppl and prove me and them wrong! If you’re interested in them and their livelihoods go and ask! I’ve spent two months talking to strangers who clearly don’t care one way or the other. I haven’t got time for you mate. It’s clearly just a strategy to keep ppl occupied. I’m going down to Dulwich road now if you are interested to drop off some leaflets, coming?

 

[sparkybird]

LOL. Check out sparkybird with the apps news ..

Wow that's brought a whole lot to the discussion. I guess I'll sink and low as you. Check out Loose meat . . Knob end

 

[Loose meat]

Stay classy, Satnav expert.

 

[sparkybird]

The LTN methodology has cut off roads making it very difficult for returning locals to ‘easily access’ families or as carers for those families South Londoners are now having to navigate several LTN’s in order to make their way back home. BAME is spoken about here to very ‘specifically’ identify businesses in this area BAME run and owned that are struggling because their customer base can’t easily visit. It’s businesses with those specific characteristics that are I trouble, because the blanket approach of an LTN has no nuance approach as to who gets to go where. Go and ask for yourself they will all be down their tonight.

Ok sorry I hadn't realised you were talking about 'returners' and BAME owned businesses as two separate issues. I was only responding to the first issue regarding so called rat running

 

[wurlycurly]

Well I’m not a member of the BAME community, but it is very much a BLM issue as it’s BAME livelihoods that are being affected and with all the best intentions to criticise an LTN in anyway is to find yourself pitted against political progressives who will not accept that something they believe in so passionately might impact a marginalised group, who they seek to empathise with or be affiliated too. so ppl would rather shoot you down then take a step bk and ask what are the ‘specifics’ on the ground where I live. So this is my understanding of what’s happening locally, it’s not my training I’ve just made enquires because I found myself on the ‘wrong side’ of an LTN and so have tried to understand it’s ramifications and I’m supporting and supported by my neighbours in the process. And I’m shitting myself because it worries me that Brixton will be like Nothing Hill gate really really soon, it happened there it’s happening here and I think we could do better.

If you're saying that LTNs are disproportionately affecting the BAME community it would really help if you gave some specific examples.