Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[CH1]

The only good thing about that long winded, paranoid, evidence free “some of my best friends are cyclists” drone was the cat giving him evils and then licking their bottom.

I agree that cyclists should stop at red lights and zebra crossings, as pretty much all cyclists I know think as well. I’m not sure why he needs 4 1/2 minutes to say that though, nor why congestion is due to mythical cyclists with four Ferraris rather than the majority of people who choose to drive.

Well! Excellent cat sexing there.
I am scared to walk into Brixton these days due to the crossing at the Atlantic. Not only cyclists, also moped riders jump the lights.
This did not happen before the Railton LTN. Our two wheeled friends seem to think the Atlantic junction is like the middle of Wimbledon Common - and patient pensioners are at serious risk of euthanasia by non four wheel traffic at this junction.
The Tweeter was spot on about this issue - and the verbal from cyclists.
BTW there was a cycle behind the Tweeter. I expect that was just for show in view of his dissenting remarks.
I am going back into my cave.

 

[teuchter]

The former chair then CEO of Lambeth Public Transport Campaign reposted this.

What's "Lambeth Public Transport Campaign"?

(Google seems unaware of it)

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Well! Excellent cat sexing there.
I am scared to walk into Brixton these days due to the crossing at the Atlantic. Not only cyclists, also moped riders jump the lights.
This did not happen before the Railton LTN. Our two wheeled friends seem to think the Atlantic junction is like the middle of Wimbledon Common - and patient pensioners are at serious risk of euthanasia by non four wheel traffic at this junction.
The Tweeter was spot on about this issue - and the verbal from cyclists.
BTW there was a cycle behind the Tweeter. I expect that was just for show in view of his dissenting remarks.
I am going back into my cave.

Again, I would agree that cyclists should stop at red lights and zebra crossings; it’s a no brainer especially in such a pedestrian heavy area. Though also IME, that area is notorious for pedestrians wandering in the street outside the crossings without looking. I try and avoid cycling down it for that reason and when I do it’s incredibly slowly so I can stop for said pedestrians, but if there is any cyclist/ped altercations around there I suspect that’s part of it.

Though I don’t actually recall him talking about verbal abuse to peds. Maybe the cat was looking particularly photogenic then.

Funny you mention Railton Road. It almost felt deadly to cyclists at times due to a minority of dangerously speeding drivers who would pass far too closely. I’ve found it much safer as an LTN but someone on here said it still happens.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Honestly, I think there would be a lot less of this driver/cyclist/pedestrian argy bargy if everyone just tried to be mindful of their surroundings and considerate of each other and their vulnerabilities, and employed common sense.

 

[edcraw]

Well! Excellent cat sexing there.
I am scared to walk into Brixton these days due to the crossing at the Atlantic. Not only cyclists, also moped riders jump the lights.
This did not happen before the Railton LTN. Our two wheeled friends seem to think the Atlantic junction is like the middle of Wimbledon Common - and patient pensioners are at serious risk of euthanasia by non four wheel traffic at this junction.
The Tweeter was spot on about this issue - and the verbal from cyclists.
BTW there was a cycle behind the Tweeter. I expect that was just for show in view of his dissenting remarks.
I am going back into my cave.

Do you mean the crossing at Coldharbour Lane? Rarely see cyclists jumping lights there (except illegal modifies electric bikes perhaps which means they aren't bicycles).

Much more dangerous is the constant stream of vehicles and illegally parked ones. The lights there are shit for pedestrians and the pavements far too small.

 

[CH1]

What's "Lambeth Public Transport Campaign"?

(Google seems unaware of it)

It was around from maybe 1982. George Wright was a co-worker at one time.
Probably culled by the "new labour lib con council coalition" 1994-98 but don't quote me.
Maybe before your time in any case - and certainly before Google's time.
They did some good work producing reports on the shocking irregularity of the 2B, "Clapham's Hidden Horror" [the railway station now called Clapham High Street - then threatened with closure].
I have a choice one here - a report on Loughborough Junction - produced after British Rail's new Thameslink service introduced a Luton to Guildford service twice and hour - and threatened to axe LJ off-peak services completely [I think this did happen briefly]
Apologies for the typography - they must have been using an Amstrad PCW to produce this - and pagination turned off!

 

[CH1]

Do you mean the crossing at Coldharbour Lane? Rarely see cyclists jumping lights there (except illegal modifies electric bikes perhaps which means they aren't bicycles).

Much more dangerous is the constant stream of vehicles and illegally parked ones. The lights there are shit for pedestrians and the pavements far too small.

I agree the lights are not fit for purpose. You get a mix there old-time Brixton jay walkers and newer residents accustomed tom wait for lights - which seem to be switched to "eternity" - even when there is zero traffic.

 

[nagapie]

Tomorrow MPs will debate the petition to allow blue badge holders access to ltns. I doubt many will attend or that it will be successful but hopefully my MP Bell Ribeiro-Addy will as she supports giving access in Lambeth.

 

[nagapie]

P

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Are rubbish trucks exempt from the LTN boundaries?
Presumably if they are, they shouldn’t steam through them speeding like the one I just saw, almost causing an accident…

 

[teuchter]

Given recent posts I'd like to preface this with saying that cycling infrastructure isn't everything, and in my opinion should come second to improving pedestrian infrastructure & experience. But below is a quite long twitter thread about what Paris has been up to.
I'd say that in general, making things substantially better for cycling pretty much inevitably makes things better for pedestrians, because it reclaims road space from motor traffic and motor traffic is an overwhelmingly greater threat to pedestrians than cyclists are. That doesn't excuse cyclists from their duty not to behave in a way that makes pedestrians (particularly older and less mobile ones) feel unsafe. Of course.

 

[thebackrow]

The former chair then CEO of Lambeth Public Transport Campaign reposted this.

That’s a bit like referring to Liz Truss as the former president of Oxford University’s Liberal Democrats.

 

[Torpid Scorpion]

With four elections now demonstrating that the public likes active transport and is not interested in tory car worship, I am pleased as punch that they are doubling down on it with their cycling law. Its bad having a completely incompetent PM and government, but the silver lining is that they are also completely incompetent at campaign strategy.

 

[ChrisSouth]

Well! Excellent cat sexing there.
I am scared to walk into Brixton these days due to the crossing at the Atlantic. Not only cyclists, also moped riders jump the lights.
This did not happen before the Railton LTN. Our two wheeled friends seem to think the Atlantic junction is like the middle of Wimbledon Common - and patient pensioners are at serious risk of euthanasia by non four wheel traffic at this junction.
The Tweeter was spot on about this issue - and the verbal from cyclists.
BTW there was a cycle behind the Tweeter. I expect that was just for show in view of his dissenting remarks.
I am going back into my cave.

Cyclists did jump the lights before Railton LTN.

 

[edcraw]

Luckily some sensible MPs were at the debate yesterday along with Jacob Rees-Moog.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2024-05-20/debates/676B0381-AC1E-4852-B5F3-C76F72CB1CFC/LowTrafficNeighbourhoods

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

Given recent posts I'd like to preface this with saying that cycling infrastructure isn't everything, and in my opinion should come second to improving pedestrian infrastructure & experience. But below is a quite long twitter thread about what Paris has been up to.
I'd say that in general, making things substantially better for cycling pretty much inevitably makes things better for pedestrians, because it reclaims road space from motor traffic and motor traffic is an overwhelmingly greater threat to pedestrians than cyclists are. That doesn't excuse cyclists from their duty not to behave in a way that makes pedestrians (particularly older and less mobile ones) feel unsafe. Of course.

unrolled version for us non twatter users

 

[Smick]

Do you mean the crossing at Coldharbour Lane? Rarely see cyclists jumping lights there (except illegal modifies electric bikes perhaps which means they aren't bicycles).

Much more dangerous is the constant stream of vehicles and illegally parked ones. The lights there are shit for pedestrians and the pavements far too small.

I often cycle that junction. If there's a green man, it means I could get off my bike and push it over, so I will instead cycle slowly through the red light and give way to pedestrians. It's a strange junction, in that no vehicle goes straight ahead except for the bus. 100% left or right turning, so I prefer to get ahead of the traffic once the lights go green.

 

[teuchter]

If there's a green man, it means I could get off my bike and push it over, so I will instead cycle slowly through the red light and give way to pedestrians

My impression is that the problem with this, is that what some cyclists consider a slow, unintimidating speed does not match with how all pedestrians perceive it.

I hardly ever feel under threat (as a pedestrian) from cyclists except when they are very obviously going too fast. But I do notice when walking with elderly people (for example) that they will be unnerved by things that don't bother me at all.

When I'm cycling I'm always debating whether it's silly to stop and wait at red lights where there are no pedestrians in sight, but where it might increase my safety to go through and get ahead of the traffic.

But when there are pedestrians crossing I feel that I shouldn't really go through, however slowly. Maybe once it's clear that no more pedestrians want to cross.

I guess I'll probably have kicked off a ten page argument with this post.

 

[Smick]

My impression is that the problem with this, is that what some cyclists consider a slow, unintimidating speed does not match with how all pedestrians perceive it.

I hardly ever feel under threat (as a pedestrian) from cyclists except when they are very obviously going too fast. But I do notice when walking with elderly people (for example) that they will be unnerved by things that don't bother me at all.

When I'm cycling I'm always debating whether it's silly to stop and wait at red lights where there are no pedestrians in sight, but where it might increase my safety to go through and get ahead of the traffic.

But when there are pedestrians crossing I feel that I shouldn't really go through, however slowly. Maybe once it's clear that no more pedestrians want to cross.

I guess I'll probably have kicked off a ten page argument with this post.

I know that what I am doing is not within the letter of the law, but I try to be within the spirit of it. If my intention is to give way to pedestrians, by stopping if necessary, then going too quickly is going to make things more difficult for me than for the pedestrians.

If I am at the junction and a pedestrian is to my left, waiting to cross, i wouldn't set off until they have walked past me.

I could get off the bike, wait for the green man, push it over, then get back on and cycle off, but that seems to be a bit of a waste of time.

Make no mistake, there are many cyclists who seem to have no regard for red lights, pedestrians, other road users. This is not what I am talking about here, just giving an example of me breaking the red lights at Atlantic Road / Coldharbour Lane, and providing a bit of context to it.

 

[ChrisSouth]

I know that what I am doing is not within the letter of the law, but I try to be within the spirit of it. If my intention is to give way to pedestrians, by stopping if necessary, then going too quickly is going to make things more difficult for me than for the pedestrians.

If I am at the junction and a pedestrian is to my left, waiting to cross, i wouldn't set off until they have walked past me.

I could get off the bike, wait for the green man, push it over, then get back on and cycle off, but that seems to be a bit of a waste of time.

Make no mistake, there are many cyclists who seem to have no regard for red lights, pedestrians, other road users. This is not what I am talking about here, just giving an example of me breaking the red lights at Atlantic Road / Coldharbour Lane, and providing a bit of context to it.

The law is quite clear. There's no interpretation of the 'spirit' of it here. There's no context. If a light is green for pedestrians, it's green for pedestrians and not for any form of transport. You're invading a safe space whether you're going slowly or quickly. You clearly have no regard for red lights and pedestrians. Don't try to other by saying that you're good because you're not that bad. Cycling in cities is difficult. It's difficult because of motorized transport who perceive all cyclists - because of behaviours of cyclists exactly like you - as law breakers and twats. When you invade safe spaces for pedestrians by jumping red lights, you give fuel to the anti-cyclist lobby. Save us your egregious handwringing and behave like a grown up. Simple.

 

[Crispy]

Yeah I used to think it was a grey area, but if traffic rules designed for the safety of pedestrians are going to have their desired effect then they need to be black and white. I dismount and wheel my bike over junctions like that sometimes. Or I just wait for green and add a small amount of time to my journey because really what's the rush?

EDIT: People learn the rules of the road by observing others, so it's actually a bigger issue than personal responsibility. If we want a courteous and polite cycling culture then we have to lead by example. It's easy to take a mile if you see people regularly taking an inch.

 

[nagapie]

unrolled version for us non twatter users

From reading through some of this it seems that disability rights were not at the forefront of this debate. Some mentions but both sides using it instead to convey their opinions and ideology.
A poor job by the chairperson, unless it was reigned in in the second half as I gave up reading. Once again the voices of the disabled drowned out by those piggy backing on their cause for their own agenda.

 

[teuchter]

From reading through some of this it seems that disability rights were not at the forefront of this debate. Some mentions but both sides using it instead to convey their opinions and ideology.
A poor job by the chairperson, unless it was reigned in in the second half as I gave up reading. Once again the voices of the disabled drowned out by those piggy backing on their cause for their own agenda.

I think you meant to quote this rather than the twitter thread about Paris.

 

[nagapie]

I think you meant to quote this rather than the twitter thread about Paris.

Ah yes. Thank you.

 

[thebackrow]

The law is quite clear. There's no interpretation of the 'spirit' of it here. There's no context. If a light is green for pedestrians, it's green for pedestrians and not for any form of transport. You're invading a safe space whether you're going slowly or quickly. You clearly have no regard for red lights and pedestrians. Don't try to other by saying that you're good because you're not that bad. Cycling in cities is difficult. It's difficult because of motorized transport who perceive all cyclists - because of behaviours of cyclists exactly like you - as law breakers and twats. When you invade safe spaces for pedestrians by jumping red lights, you give fuel to the anti-cyclist lobby. Save us your egregious handwringing and behave like a grown up. Simple.

Traffic signals are fundamentally a motor traffic control tech - they’re only required because motorists would cause gridlock otherwise. Zebras actually give pedestrians priority immediately. Standalone signalised crossings are used over zebras to prioritise motor traffic - where the volume of pedestrians would otherwise hold up motor traffic.

Peds and cycles can happily negotiate space safely - which is why we have lots of shared pedestrian/cycle infrastructure. It doesn’t work for linear stuff where it’s busy but it’s fine for crossings. Personally I have no problem with people on bikes treating signals like zebras - give way to pedestrians at slow speeds. And don’t be a dick.

I once rode with a load of people from the Dutch cycling embassy and that’s exactly how they treated signals, and they’re is a country that doesn’t have the issue of cycle hatred that’s been stirred up by the right wing press here.

 

[teuchter]

Peds and cycles can happily negotiate space safely

The point I was trying to make earlier is that while I agree they can negotiate spaces safely, it's not always "happily" and I've become more conscious over time of how people on bikes (even when going quite slowly) can make certain groups of pedestrians feel unsafe or uncomfortable.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Tomorrow MPs will debate the petition to allow blue badge holders access to ltns. I doubt many will attend or that it will be successful but hopefully my MP Bell Ribeiro-Addy will as she supports giving access in Lambeth.

Did access get granted after the debate?

 

[nagapie]

Did access get granted after the debate?

No idea of outcome or how the process works.

 

[PlasT]

Things certainly have been a lot smoother (at least bus wise) since the suspension of the Streatham Wells LTN, so it will be interesting to see what changes they make when (or if…) they give it another go

 

[CH1]

The law is quite clear. There's no interpretation of the 'spirit' of it here. There's no context. If a light is green for pedestrians, it's green for pedestrians and not for any form of transport. You're invading a safe space whether you're going slowly or quickly. You clearly have no regard for red lights and pedestrians. Don't try to other by saying that you're good because you're not that bad. Cycling in cities is difficult. It's difficult because of motorized transport who perceive all cyclists - because of behaviours of cyclists exactly like you - as law breakers and twats. When you invade safe spaces for pedestrians by jumping red lights, you give fuel to the anti-cyclist lobby. Save us your egregious handwringing and behave like a grown up. Simple.

It happened to me again this morning before 9.00 am.
As I approached the Coldharbour Lane/Atlantic Road junction going towards Brixton the pedestrian green light came on and the BEEP BEEP BEEP warning started.
Before I could step out a chunky young Chinese male cyclist - about 25 I should say - shot out in front of me and did a hard left turn into Coldharbour Lane.

Is light jumping in front of pedestrians in Brixton like "scoring" then? Cyclists maybe think it's 'OK' because everybody does it - and anyway cycling is a good thing?
And of course there is no fixed penalty notice camera which will issue a ticket to a cyclist (yet). I was reading on a cycling website that jumping a red light IS an offence which theoretically carries a £50 fixed penalty.