Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[thebackrow]

These new plans for Elm Park look decent!

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Loving the objections to this from the usual suspects. Having previously said anyone living within a "gentrified" LTN should have all the parking removed they're now being outraged that some parking has been removed on what they describe as the 'gentrified' Elm Park. (where the Post Office long had a reputation for being robbed to the extent a few years back a local postman friend advised not living on Elm Park because it wasn’t safe(!) As well as the outrage that parking near shops is being removed I've also seen objections that the area outside them doesn't need to be improved because they're just shops for local people.

And someone who wants the entire scheme removed (putting >3000 vehicles per day back onto Upper Tulse Hill and Roupell Road, which have estates on both sides) is objecting because making this bit of Elm Park one way will mean a handful of homes will have a slightly different route to Brixton Hill.

By the way - marked disabled bays are for residents (and since the spaces being removed are not occupied in any google streetview images suspect the people they were for are long gone. They tend to outstay their need as it needs a traffic order to remove them so time and cost for council means they stay until a larger project happens). Blue badge holders don't need marked bays to visit since they can park in resident bays or on yellow lines (so long as they don't cause an obstruction). So that objection is nonsense as well.

mad

 

[Smick]

There was a bit of that vibe pre lockdown too in summer

There used to be a great shebeen up on Palace Road during lockdown, near the Hive, which died off as lockdown did. I would stop for a chat on occasion but never had a drink with them.

 

[BusLanes]

There used to be a great shebeen up on Palace Road during lockdown, near the Hive, which died off as lockdown did. I would stop for a chat on occasion but never had a drink with them.

Oh by the containers?

 

[edcraw]

Loving the objections to this from the usual suspects. Having previously said anyone living within a "gentrified" LTN should have all the parking removed they're now being outraged that some parking has been removed on what they describe as the 'gentrified' Elm Park. (where the Post Office long had a reputation for being robbed to the extent a few years back a local postman friend advised not living on Elm Park because it wasn’t safe(!) As well as the outrage that parking near shops is being removed I've also seen objections that the area outside them doesn't need to be improved because they're just shops for local people.

And someone who wants the entire scheme removed (putting >3000 vehicles per day back onto Upper Tulse Hill and Roupell Road, which have estates on both sides) is objecting because making this bit of Elm Park one way will mean a handful of homes will have a slightly different route to Brixton Hill.

By the way - marked disabled bays are for residents (and since the spaces being removed are not occupied in any google streetview images suspect the people they were for are long gone. They tend to outstay their need as it needs a traffic order to remove them so time and cost for council means they stay until a larger project happens). Blue badge holders don't need marked bays to visit since they can park in resident bays or on yellow lines (so long as they don't cause an obstruction). So that objection is nonsense as well.

mad

Yes - I know the person. As always gentrification is done by someone else and they’re happily ignoring that most of that stretch of Elm Park is actually social housing.

Add to that the hypocritical supposed care about residents on the 2 estates, it’s almost as if they’re upset that they’ll have to drive slightly further and their very quiet road might get a handful more vehicles.

 

[Jimbeau]

Some people seem to blame the shops struggling on the LTN and that these changes will affect them further but truth is the shops have been struggling for much longer and suspect the main reason is people with cars just don’t use them but drive to bigger shops. These changes making it a nicer place to be should surely help.

I don’t think traffic is a significant factor. These little side street shopping parades used to be everywhere. I can think of a dozen within ten minutes walk of my house that have long been converted into homes. This one has hung on longer than most.

I suspect it’s more to do with a world that uses supermarkets, Amazon, Deliveroo, etc, and that doesn’t really need sub post offices, chip shops or coin operated launderettes so much anymore.

I think improving the streetscape with some well-planned design interventions is a good thing. The ramshackle street party vibe during Covid was fun but didn’t suit everyone. Twice my elderly neighbour asked me to run errands to those shops as she found it a bit intimidating and felt vulnerable there.

 

[Smick]

Oh by the containers?

Yeah, that’s the one. They seemed to store seats and their PA in a container.

I wonder if they started going to pubs or house parties once they left that spot.

 

[teuchter]

Some outdoor tables will definitely be good for business for the EPT, I'd have thought.

Always interesting to go and have a look at what places used to look like, before traffic reduction stuff was put in. It can be forgotten surprisingly quickly.







It's a shame that there needs to be so much visual clutter purely for the benefit of drivers who will only notice signs if they are massive and repeated multiple times.

 

[thebackrow]

Some outdoor tables will definitely be good for business for the EPT, I'd have thought.

Always interesting to go and have a look at what places used to look like, before traffic reduction stuff was put in. It can be forgotten surprisingly quickly.

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It's a shame that there needs to be so much visual clutter purely for the benefit of drivers who will only notice signs if they are massive and repeated multiple times.

It really is. Turning the assumptions about parking around would make a big difference. Parking in marked bays only would get rid of all the yellow lines at least.
Of course not possible here, but put a bollard in and you dont need any no motor vehicle signs (though I've sen places with full phsycisal berriers where they've still been installed for some reason)

 

[Cat Fan]

If we didn't have a regulation that says all cameras need to be signposted that would help! I have always thought that it defeats the purpose of speed cameras to signpost them

 

[Bus Stopped]

The last couple of weeks haven’t been too bad at all! If it carries on like this I think even if some issues, it should be ok.

 

[edcraw]

These guys do like a moan… reckon they’ve got to be a front for the Tories along these lines: English Tories opposing 20mph in Wales while supporting it where they live

 

[BigTom]

The tips in Birmingham all kept the appointment system after covid too and it's way better. There used to be huge queues at my local one in peak times causing traffic problems and you never really knew if you went to the tip of there'd be a long queue or not (except at certain times of year/day).
Now the appointments spread everyone out and there's rarely much of a queue and no more traffic problems being caused on the road the entrance to the tip is on.

 

[edcraw]

The tips in Birmingham all kept the appointment system after covid too and it's way better. There used to be huge queues at my local one in peak times causing traffic problems and you never really knew if you went to the tip of there'd be a long queue or not (except at certain times of year/day).
Now the appointments spread everyone out and there's rarely much of a queue and no more traffic problems being caused on the road the entrance to the tip is on.

And the rest of the country have had fortnightly bin collections for years. It’s almost like this is a group that will moan about anything the council does.

 

[Bus Stopped]

Awful today I’ve had to get off and walk.

The phone satnav is saying to go about 100m driving it would be quicker to turn around and take a 25 minute drive down Leigham court road all the way round and back up Streatham high street the other way lol!!!

Still a bit of exercise. It was going so well the last week or so.

 

[sparkybird]

Awful today I’ve had to get off and walk.

The phone satnav is saying to go about 100m driving it would be quicker to turn around and take a 25 minute drive down Leigham court road all the way round and back up Streatham high street the other way lol!!!

Still a bit of exercise. It was going so well the last week or so.

There's water works again at the junction of Sports Direct. And services connection works on Brixton Hill.

 

[Bus Stopped]

There's water works again at the junction of Sports Direct. And services connection works on Brixton Hill.

Ah ok! I think it’s probably just that then as last two weeks has really settled down.

I saw there was a demo about the LTN (can’t remember when), but given it’s settled down I can’t see it coming to much! Those who said it would adjust were right it seems.

 

[edcraw]

Ah ok! I think it’s probably just that then as last two weeks has really settled down.

I saw there was a demo about the LTN (can’t remember when), but given it’s settled down I can’t see it coming to much! Those who said it would adjust were right it seems.

It’s on Weds before the council meeting. They’ll get some folks - lots of drivers still annoyed by having to drive slightly further.

 

[Bus Stopped]

It’s on Weds before the council meeting. They’ll get some folks - lots of drivers still annoyed by having to drive slightly further.

I’ll be there but for the Palestine demo!

 

[alex_]

Ah ok! I think it’s probably just that then as last two weeks has really settled down.

Those who said it would adjust were right it seems.

For ref, approx how long did it take to settle down ?

 

[Cat Fan]

For ref, approx how long did it take to settle down ?

Until all the water works and road works stopped, really

 

[alex_]

Until all the water works and road works stopped, really

about two months?

( the LTN started 1st November iirc if it helps )

 

[Bus Stopped]

about two months?

( the LTN started 1st November iirc if it helps )

Assuming things stay as they are then yes around 2 months.

To be fair I don’t know how bad it still is for car users.

What I would say is one remaining problem is that there are constantly road works on the main routes. And the LTN does now mean that at those times things get very gridlocked.

In terms of negatives vs positives I’m not in much of a place to analyse it.

 

[alex_]

Assuming things stay as they are then yes around 2 months.

To be fair I don’t know how bad it still is for car users

What I would say is one remaining problem is that there are constantly road works on the main routes. And the LTN does now mean that at those times things get very gridlocked.

In terms of negatives vs positives I’m not in much of a place to analyse it.

About two months was what it took kings avenue to return to normal, after the Brixton hill ltn came in

Alex

 

[alex_]

Curiously this should make this process much faster in future

Satnavs and Google Maps to be updated in readiness for driverless cars | Transport policy | The Guardian

Councils in England will have to digitise all traffic regulation measures such as temporary speed limits or road closures

amp.theguardian.com

Assuming the government actually does it, which they probably won’t.

 

[edcraw]

Curiously this should make this process much faster in future

Satnavs and Google Maps to be updated in readiness for driverless cars | Transport policy | The Guardian

Councils in England will have to digitise all traffic regulation measures such as temporary speed limits or road closures

amp.theguardian.com

Assuming the government actually does it, which they probably won’t.

Can’t help but think Google, Apple etc should be paying to set up this system especially as they pay fuck all tax.

 

[teuchter]

Looks like they are still living under the delusion that self driving vehicles are just around the corner.

 

[edcraw]

Looks like they are still living under the delusion that self driving vehicles are just around the corner.

and if they were that good surely they’d be able to spot the bloody roads signs!

 

[alex_]

The reason this is interesting is that the only way to change a satnav route currently is to block the road, wait for enough drivers to report it to every satnav vendor and then wait for routes to adjust.

With this legislation in place local authorities will be able to “block roads” in satnavs without actually physically blocking roads.

Most of the negative issues LTNs seem to be caused by the “blocking roads and waiting for satnavs to update” part ( which seems to take 2 months and causes chaos), rather than the actual blocking of roads.

In the Brixton hill LTN, Lambeths data said that in the evening peak between 85 and 100% of traffic was non-local so presumably almost all satnav routed traffic - if you could have moved this away ( by changing satnavs ) before actually blocking the roads you’d have hugely reduced the impact of introducing the LTN.

Alex

 

[edcraw]

The reason this is interesting is that the only way to change a satnav route currently is to block the road, wait for enough drivers to report it to every satnav vendor and then wait for routes to adjust.

With this legislation in place local authorities will be able to “block roads” in satnavs without actually physically blocking roads.

Most of the negative issues LTNs seem to be caused by the “blocking roads and waiting for satnavs to update” part ( which seems to take 2 months and causes chaos), rather than the actual blocking of roads.

In the Brixton hill LTN, Lambeths data said that in the evening peak between 85 and 100% of traffic was non-local so presumably almost all satnav routed traffic - if you could have moved this away ( by changing satnavs ) before actually blocking the roads you’d have hugely reduced the impact of introducing the LTN.

Alex

I don’t think you could put in the modal filters on sat nav only. You’d need to have the traffic order in place and the signage.

Currently the councils are telling the Sat nav companies and post the orders correctly it’s the Sat nav companies are just crap at updating. Can’t see why councils should need to make it easier for these huge companies.

 

[alex_]

I don’t think you could put in the modal filters on sat nav only. You’d need to have the traffic order in place and the signage.

Currently the councils are telling the Sat nav companies and post the orders correctly it’s the Sat nav companies are just crap at updating. Can’t see why councils should need to make it easier for these huge companies.

The traffic order for the no right turn at the top of kings ave, went in force but was never signed or enforced. How would what I suggest be different ?

All I’m suggesting is doing the traffic orders, waiting a couple of months while traffic moves away - then doing signage and actually blocking roads.