Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[Bus Stopped]

History is (thank god) full of politicians doing good things without popular support. If there was a referendum on the minimum wage in the 90s it probably would never have happened.

It’s telling that so many at yesterday’s protest were ex-councillors. We don’t and shouldn’t have a referendum on every measure politicians take - democracy is voting on a general direction.

There might be LTNs that don’t work but I don’t believe this is true yet of any of the Lambeth ones & the protest yesterday was very clearly against the principle of LTNs and that’s true of most opposition.

So on that principle you’re against residents having a vote on estate demolitions?

And if you think the labour councillors (with a handful of honourable exceptions), are good politicians we will have to strongly agree to disagree.

And I’m not talking about right wing protests I’m saying that concerns of local residents shouldn’t just be dismissed. Who knows they might have a point in some cases?

As for good things, the vast majority have been achieved through collective struggle from workers not the great and the good.

 

[edcraw]

So on that principle you’re against residents having a vote on estate demolitions?

You’ve misunderstood me if you think that’s true. Estate residents having a vote on their estate is very different than saying there shouldn’t be referendums on LTNs. Roads are public and homes aren’t.

 

[Bus Stopped]

Is that what happened?

I went to the Palestinian demo.

At least one Zionist turned up and started waving the Israeli flag at front of demo as someone was speaking. A woman. Typical provocation.

Then I saw a lot of pushing and shoving with a man involved. ( the LTN guy?)

The police this time kept out of out. Which was a good thing, They kept to edge of demo and were not filming it or other intrusive behavior Ive seen at National demos.

Also unlike previous demo at Windrush square about Palestine where they Police got stuck in and tried to arrest someone for the placard they had. They had been scrutinising that demo.

So imo letting the protestors sort out the Zionists and not interfering was a step forward.

I have photos but did not put them out as I've been on a lot of the Palestine demos and police are checking social media. And do not want to get people in trouble

I did hear that the LTN lot were not happy that the Palestinian supporters had got the prime spot.

The LTN demo was around the corner.

It seemed civilised enough demo.

On numbers. Well the Palestine demo was not that big. But considering the timing demos are not always that big. Saw a lot of people I knew there. So it was the "usual suspects" Which is not a bad thing.

I’m not a fan of the police and agree it was better sorted out by demonstrators.

But my point is that a posh white man wasn’t arrested by the police after punching people in the face. They would have a had a totally different approach if it had been people from different demographics or a Palestinian protestor who waded in to the LTN crowd punching people.

 

[Bus Stopped]

You’ve misunderstood me if you think that’s true. Estate residents having a vote on their estate is very different than saying there shouldn’t be referendums on LTNs. Roads are public and homes aren’t.

So some issues should have a vote and others shouldn’t. Who decides on that, you?

 

[Bus Stopped]

I was at the demo last night and watched a guy being questioned by police on Acre Lane - it was about 6.15pm. He was asking them to arrest the thugs from the Palestinian demo who had attacked him: the police were trying to calm him down and obviously didn’t want to inflame the situation.
He wasn’t a member of the anti LTN group: it was gathering much further away: could he have been in the small group which was protesting against the Gaza rally?
You’d be surprised how many of the anti-LTN group are Labour supporters but there aren’t any leaders as such. If you think you know who they are, please tell me. I’m sure there are some who vote Conservative, Green, Lib Dem but what unites us all is the high handed way Lambeth Council is introducing LTNs: ignoring the democratic will of residents, lying about how comparisons of air quality are monitored and using unverified stats to support their argument.
If you can describe the guy who attacked members of your demo, I’ll do my best to identify him.

This is simply not true. The guy later went to the LTN demo and was carrying a speaker. He was part of it. He was posh white guy in his 50s.

I know he was asking police to arrest Palestinian protesters and was pointing to his bloodied hand. Bloodied because he had snapped a placard stick in half. He also initiated the violence as was pointed out to police by witnesses who had walked past.

 

[edcraw]

So some issues should have a vote and others shouldn’t. Who decides on that, you?

No - estate residents should have a say on their estate. We all have a say on our streets which would be impractical for a referendum so we devolve those powers to the people we elect.

Or should we all have a say on estates?

 

[edcraw]

This is simply not true. The guy later went to the LTN demo and was carrying a speaker. He was part of it. He was posh white guy in his 50s.

I know he was asking police to arrest Palestinian protesters and was pointing to his bloodied hand. Bloodied because he had snapped a placard stick in half. He also initiated the violence as was pointed out to police by witnesses who had walked past.

Tim Briggs?

 

[Gramsci]

The juxtaposition between a protest against a genocide and another against being slightly inconvenienced when driving is interesting.

Why is it interesting?

Both are issues that concern locals

I went to the Palestine one and others went to anti LTN one.

This is local democracy in action.

Both groups of people are entitled to hold demos

I've no interest attending anti LTN demo.

But they are entitled to hold one.

 

[Bus Stopped]

No - estate residents should have a say on their estate. We all have a say on our streets which would be impractical for a referendum so we devolve those powers to the people we elect.

Or should we all have a say on estates?

So why bother consulting?

 

[Bus Stopped]

Tim Briggs?

No lol

 

[Marbs]

M

This is simply not true. The guy later went to the LTN demo and was carrying a speaker. He was part of it. He was posh white guy in his 50s.

I know he was asking police to arrest Palestinian protesters and was pointing to his bloodied hand. Bloodied because he had snapped a placard stick in half. He also initiated the violence as was pointed out to police by witnesses who had walked past.

yes, I’m sure that’s the guy I saw being questioned by the police: looked a bit like a young Michael Winner. I’ll make enquiries.

 

[edcraw]

So why bother consulting?

To give people an opportunity to raise genuine concerns about how it’s implemented (and because there’s a legal obligation to).

 

[alex_]

So some issues should have a vote and others shouldn’t. Who decides on that, you?

How would you decide who voted on an LTN and when would the vote happen ?

Estate regeneration is easy to answer - residents and owners, before the regeneration happens.

Alex

 

[edcraw]

So some issues should have a vote and others shouldn’t. Who decides on that, you?

eh? Should we have a vote on everything?

 

[liquidindian]

eh? Should we have a vote on everything?

Make this a poll.

 

[Bus Stopped]

To give people an opportunity to raise genuine concerns about how it’s implemented (and because there’s a legal obligation to).

We will just have to agree to disagree. I think if it’s agreed to have consultation and follow up consultation I can’t see why there can’t be a vote.

And while you don’t have to have a vote on everything you also don’t have to consult on everything. But if a council is going to bother consulting make it a real consultation and have a vote.

 

[Bus Stopped]

How would you decide who voted on an LTN and when would the vote happen ?

Estate regeneration is easy to answer - residents and owners, before the regeneration happens.

Alex

The same people who are consulted both before and afterwards. The vote could be six months after implementation.

 

[alex_]

Deleted

 

[teuchter]

The same people who are consulted both before and afterwards. The vote could be six months after implementation.

There's no defined group of people who are consulted.

 

[Bus Stopped]

There's no defined group of people who are consulted.

Well whoever Lambeth council chose to consult.

 

[alex_]

Well whoever Lambeth council chose to consult.

I’m pretty sure anyone can respond.

So it sounds like your plan is to allow anyone in the world to vote on the Streatham wells LTN ?

Alex

 

[Winot]

I’m pretty sure anyone can respond.

So it sounds like your plan is to allow anyone in the world to vote on the Streatham wells LTN ?

Alex

#democracy

 

[Bus Stopped]

I’m pretty sure anyone can respond.

So it sounds like your plan is to allow anyone in the world to vote on the Streatham wells LTN ?

Alex

No that’s not true. Lambeth specially consulted people in the LTN as far as I know. Whoever they consulted, which wasn’t the world (funny guy!), can also be given a vote.

 

[Bus Stopped]

It’s amazing that people think local people should have no say about what happens in their local area, although it seems it depends. Housing estates yes, LTNs no.

A library being closed or park being turned in to a car park? Should the views of local residents just be ignored?

Just because right wing arseholes have latched on to LTNs as part of an anti green agenda doesn’t mean every LTN is a good thing or that there might not be genuine concerns.

 

[teuchter]

The consultations are open to anyone. The people who respond will be people who have an interest, one way or the other. That includes people from well outside of the LTN area itself, for example people who think it will make their journey better or worse. There will be some guy from Croydon who is angry it'll make it slower for him to drive into central London. There will be a cyclist from Tooting who is pleased their commute will be safer.

While there might be some targeted advertising of the consultation, that doesn't define who can and does respond.

 

[Bus Stopped]

The consultations are open to anyone. The people who respond will be people who have an interest, one way or the other. That includes people from well outside of the LTN area itself, for example people who think it will make their journey better or worse. There will be some guy from Croydon who is angry it'll make it slower for him to drive into central London. There will be a cyclist from Tooting who is pleased their commute will be safer.

While there might be some targeted advertising of the consultation, that doesn't define who can and does respond.

I’m not sure that’s true. I was sent a consultation link with a specific code. So that can’t be for anyone?

But in terms of the vote you could make it people inside the LTN and boundary roads.

 

[teuchter]

It’s amazing that people think local people should have no say about what happens in their local area, although it seems it depends. Housing estates yes, LTNs no.

London has now had various elections with vociferous anti LTN candidates. As far as I'm aware they've all failed quite miserably to gather a number of votes.

 

[Bus Stopped]

London has now had various elections with vociferous anti LTN candidates. As far as I'm aware they've all failed quite miserably to gather a number of votes.

Of course they would. There are far more important issues and I suspect most of them have another agenda.

Even more reason it’s people in the local area who should decide.

 

[edcraw]

We will just have to agree to disagree. I think if it’s agreed to have consultation and follow up consultation I can’t see why there can’t be a vote.

And while you don’t have to have a vote on everything you also don’t have to consult on everything. But if a council is going to bother consulting make it a real consultation and have a vote.

There’s a legal obligation to have consultations on LTNs. There’s a legal obligation to have a ballot on estate regenerations. There’s no legal obligation to have a vote on LTNs.

If you were to have a vote on LTNs there’d be lots of questions you’d need to answer first - who can vote, how they’ll vote, what are they voting on, how you stop fraud, do you have a minimum turn out, how much will this all cost. It all seems rather unnecessary and we don’t hold local referendums on anything else so why just LTNs?

 

[Bus Stopped]

There’s a legal obligation to have consultations on LTNs. There’s a legal obligation to have a ballot on estate regenerations. There’s no legal obligation to have a vote on LTNs.

If you were to have a vote on LTNs there’d be lots of questions you’d need to answer first - who can vote, how they’ll vote, what are they voting on, how you stop fraud, do you have a minimum turn out, how much will this all cost. It all seems rather unnecessary and we don’t hold local referendums on anything else so why just LTNs?

Lambeth already spends a lot of money on consultation. That’s not in question. I thought there was a legal obligation but either way Lambeth does it.

Six months after the LTN and those in the LTN and boundary roads would seem good to me. Given the council is doing follow up consultation anyway it wouldn’t be difficult.

Also there wasn’t a legal obligation to have votes for estate demolitions until recently. It still wasn’t ok people didn’t get a vote.