No one has said this
Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists
- Thread starter teuchter
- Start date
No one has said this
teuchter
je suis teuchter
So people who drive, cycle, walk or use buses that pass through the area shouldn't have a say?
Why should only they have a say on what happens to public roads? They’re not just their roads.
Bus Stopped
Active Member
There is already a say via consultation. As you’ve said.
But I think a vote should be for the LTN area and boundary roads.
What should the minimum turnout be?
Bus Stopped
Active Member
Why should people who live on an estate only have a say given it also affects those on waiting list and the HRA budget generally?
There are no perfect answers to these things.
Bus Stopped
Active Member
There shouldn’t be. Like most elections. Including for estates.
liquidindian
Hello
There have been several attempts to game consultations, and the code is an attempt to mitigate that: Smart council officers outsmart attempts to game consultations
Those in the local area will have a code. People from outside the local area can still respond, but you can't easily pretend to be a local person objecting.
Lambeth has a whole strategy around transport. The consultation is one way to help understand if something is meeting this strategy's goals. It's also supposed to uncover any issues that may not be obvious beforehand, things that might be improved or tweaked. That's not something a vote would do. But we do get a vote on the strategy, it's the council election. (Well, I don't get a vote, but I would if I lived two streets closer)
IMO a lot of the campaigners are not just ineffective, they do those they claim to represent a massive disservice. They post up guides on how the answer the consultation, sometimes automated forms, rather than getting people to answer them honestly. So if there are any genuine issues it's easy for them to get lost or not reported at all because people have been convinced to complain about restricted freedoms or WHO conspiracy theories or whatever.
So a tiny minority of bitter car drivers could stop it! Could the council never consider an LTN there again? Could they make other changes - one ways, no entries etc - and would those need to be voted on?
Where was the consultation on cars dominating our streets btw?
Bus Stopped
Active Member
I agree about the campaigners. But the latest LTN has clearly a lot of bad feeling from local residents. Those who get the code should get a vote.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Yes. So, in the vote that would determine whether the LTN stays or not, you'd not let people who drive, cycle, walk or use buses that pass through the area have their say.
Bus Stopped
Active Member
What about local people who use public transport? If the LTN is positive for local people why wouldn’t they vote for it?
Of course they could consider there again.
I agree with you about cars and think most LTNs have worked. I just don’t agree they should be implemented no matter what and always considered a good thing. They are a drop in the ocean to what is needed.
Bus Stopped
Active Member
No system is perfect. Councillors objected to estate demolition votes as it didn’t include people on the waiting list.
But you want only those public transport users in the LTN and boundary roads to have a vote.
They aren’t always considered a good think - they’re trialled with monitoring to see if they’re meeting the objectives.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Indeed.
Bus Stopped
Active Member
Again yes it wouldn’t be perfect but I think if the council can’t even convince a majority in the LTN and boundary roads to vote yes there is a problem. Especially after six months when things should have bedded in.
I appreciate you disagree.
The latest LTN has got better but is clearly still causing problems with buses and pollution for those who live on the main roads.
You’d get an incredibly low turn out with it skewing to car owners as the consultations do. I really don’t see the point if the LTN is meeting the objectives.
If residents of an LTN did vote in favour it would hardly stop opposition as it would just feed into the false narrative that LTNs are about making private roads for residents. Really struggle to see what issue it would solve.
The LTN is a good idea, but the way that the council has gone about it sucks. They have gone out and sought consultation, which has left people feeling that they were asked for opinions and had them ignored when they made the effort.
The first LTNs were introduced as a Covid method but, post Covid, they have continued to create new ones.
I think it's fair to say that the initial LTN in the ABC road benefited homes of wealthy people, including Rezina Chowdhury.
The implementation of the Streatham Wells LTN has been a joke. They have done it at a time of year when nobody wants to walk, wants to cycle. They got the signage wrong from the very beginning and have made numerous changes and apologies. They have put some cameras and signs up by mistake and had to take them down, when reminded by local people that Valleyfield Road is not pat of the LTN. All the while fining people a week's food budget for a family of 5 for driving through it. Malcolm Clark, who appears to barely even understand what the fuck is going on, is sent out to make the apologies as some sort of fall guy, taking sad faced selfies in the rain as he peeks out from his waterproof coat. There has been no improvement in public transport. They have allowed American corporations to commercialise the streets by putting their shit e-bikes and scooters everywhere. It has been a shambles from beginning to end, and only exists because they have that power to fine. And, to top it off, some load of 1%ers, living in million pound houses, which they own, are cheerleading the cause, telling middle class councillors from million pound homes how wonderful they all are.
This leads to decent people polarising and shouting each other down.
LTNs are worthwhile, but our local authority is just not competent to implement them.
The first LTNs were introduced as a Covid method but, post Covid, they have continued to create new ones.
I think it's fair to say that the initial LTN in the ABC road benefited homes of wealthy people, including Rezina Chowdhury.
The implementation of the Streatham Wells LTN has been a joke. They have done it at a time of year when nobody wants to walk, wants to cycle. They got the signage wrong from the very beginning and have made numerous changes and apologies. They have put some cameras and signs up by mistake and had to take them down, when reminded by local people that Valleyfield Road is not pat of the LTN. All the while fining people a week's food budget for a family of 5 for driving through it. Malcolm Clark, who appears to barely even understand what the fuck is going on, is sent out to make the apologies as some sort of fall guy, taking sad faced selfies in the rain as he peeks out from his waterproof coat. There has been no improvement in public transport. They have allowed American corporations to commercialise the streets by putting their shit e-bikes and scooters everywhere. It has been a shambles from beginning to end, and only exists because they have that power to fine. And, to top it off, some load of 1%ers, living in million pound houses, which they own, are cheerleading the cause, telling middle class councillors from million pound homes how wonderful they all are.
This leads to decent people polarising and shouting each other down.
LTNs are worthwhile, but our local authority is just not competent to implement them.
Looks like you're being accused ofmaking things up to further your pro-LTN agenda!!
sparkybird
ask the bird...
The introduction of LTN's has been in Lambeth's Transport Strategy since 2018 - long before Covid, which just accelerated the process.
Plenty of social housing on the ABC roads last time I looked...
And Valleyfield Road filter is included in the LTN, they council just decided not to implement it immediately, to see if it really is needed. Same as Hopton Road one (which I suspect is, to stop drives doing dangerous U turns in the Tesco entrance). There was a grace period when people got letters instead of a fine. If drivers can't understand basic road signs which form part of the highway code, I'm not sure what else can be done? Additional signs have been added (helpfully) by those protesting against the LTN's. They are pretty hard to miss.
Lambeth never billed it as 'consultation' and have been very clear that there is no referendum. They asked local residents to identify issues caused by drivers taking shortcuts. Local residents will know the most about these as they live with them every day. This seems sensible to me.
Lambeth have no power to improve public transport. What we need to see is a shift away from private car use being the default, espeically in a borough where 50% don't have a car. What's holding up the buses? Cars - many single occupancy. It was never going to be easy or perfect but something has to be done.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
While Lambeth might excel in screwing things up, I don't think there's been an LTN implementation anywhere in the UK that has gone through without protest & controversy. The alternative to Lambeth doing them in a non perfect way is for them not to happen at all. Which of course what some people want.
There isn’t a perfect way to implement them, the whole point of them is to block rat runs through residential streets. This causes disruption while satnavs adjust.
Alex
Bus Stopped
Active Member
This is hilarious. Firstly I’m critical of the LTN and secondly I didn’t comment on the actual demo not being peaceful (it was), but about an individual on it who had assaulted people on the Palestine demo, and was clearly helping to organise it. I even said the demo seemed to have mainly local people on it.
There is no disputing the bloke assaulted people. There were multiple witnesses and he had blood on his hand from snapping a placard in half. The only issue is why didn’t the police arrest him as they would of for most other people.
Last edited:
Bus Stopped
Active Member
I guess it would help if the LTNs weren’t being implemented by councillors who treated working class communities with disdain in terms of estate “regeneration”. And that the figureheads weren’t councillors in million pound houses. It understandably puts peoples backs up. And any criticism is met with defensiveness and suspicion even if it’s about buses. Loads of people in and around the LTN were/are pissed off with it. That doesn’t mean all their views are valid but at the same time they/we aren’t all right wingers and selfish people who don’t care about the environment.
One of the good arguments on here was that LTNs are a gateway to a wider green agenda and any set backs to them are a blow to the green agenda. There could be some truth to that but I think it’s overblown. LTNs are small fry really and any change needed will need to come from radical policies at a national level. And conversely badly done LTNs and high handed attitudes could potentially alienate people.
I also think the added pollution to the main roads, which tend to be people in lower income brackets, shouldn’t be dismissed.
As said I used to live on the main road and window sills were black with pollution and you couldn’t clean walls with a wet cloth as it would just smear marks across them.
editor
hiraethified
It's the cars that you lot insist on driving everywhere that is raising pollution you fucking morons.
*aimed at anti LTN protesters
editor
hiraethified
I'm pretty sure that a general vote about LTNs would find the majority in favour. Do you think otherwise?
Maybe, but it was introduced as a Covid emergency measure. And then, following the easing of Covid restrictions, it was not mentioned again in relation to Covid.
There are still signs in place with a covid URL Google Maps
If our council and councillors had had the strength of their convictions, they would not have introduced it as a Covid related measure.
Yes, near the high road. Stick a pin at Saint Margaret the Queen and draw a one mile radius from there. I guarantee you that the houses in the ABC roads, including Downton and Wavertree, have the highest average house price.
Indeed, but having communicated that they would not include Valleyfield, they still went and put the cameras and signs up, leading to residents' complaints and then they had to take them back down again.
It has been repeated by the council, and councillors, ad nauseam that there have been issues with the signage, that the contractor did not do their job correctly, that it needs to be revised etc. etc.
Agreed, but what we have is a valid scheme which has been implemented by buffoons, generating negative public response.
Agreed, but if I were put in charge of implementing changes which want to bring changes away from car usage and promote walking and cycling, I wouldn't do it in the last week of November.
The same bunch of self-serving idiots who are big into new cafes at the Rec, but not heating the place or maintaining any of the machines in the gym. The same idiots who have tried over many years to force people from their homes in Cressingham. The same idiots who have outsourced every single job to the extent that, instead of employing people locally, I have to write to Portsmouth if I want to discuss my council tax. The only people left getting any direct benefit from the council are the councillors themselves.
They have made a balls of LTN implementation and, even if you agree with LTN generally, as I do myself, our councillors deserve no credit, given how badly they have implemented it. We live in a rotten borough where questioning their policies are met with hostility and derision and there's nothing can be done about it.
At this point I will raise again that disabled people attending an anti LTN demo have a valid argument. With multiple LTNs all over the borough, blue badge holders still only have access to one filter. Apparently the LTNs are to clear the roads for those that have to drive except Lambeth won't put the money up to create an accessible system. Even our excellent MP Bell Ribeiro-Addy has taken them to task on this.
The pro lobby don't seem to care because they have a very simplistic and ableist idea about barriers for the disabled.
The pro lobby don't seem to care because they have a very simplistic and ableist idea about barriers for the disabled.
Bus Stopped
Active Member
I think it would depend on the LTN. But any vote should give the LTN a chance to bed in.
I’ve said before I’m in favour of banning private car use in London for a government zip car scheme. But I don’t think all current car users should be condemned.
Also whether you blame car users or not the latest LTN has pushed more pollution on the high street who already suffered the worst pollution.
Similar threads
