MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
Not being aggressive I'm asking a question, I presume you brought this matter up because you wanted to debate it?
Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists
- Thread starter teuchter
- Start date
editor
hiraethified
No, I brought it up because I thought it an interesting point, that had been told directly to me by someone that doesn't have an anti-LTN agenda.
And yes, I am concerned if people are unable to get their food parcels before Christmas. Aren't you?
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
Of course but saying it's the fault of being in an LTN strikes me as whataboutery.
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
Presumably they need people with cars, vans or cargo bikes/trailers/panniers (but they don’t mention that)Foodbanks saying that LTNs are causing them delivery problems
Streatham Foodbank needs urgent help with food parcel deliveries this week as LTNs slow down services
Brixton Buzz has received a call that reliable people with a car or a van are urgently needed to assist the foodbank in Streatham with food parcel deliveries this week.www.brixtonbuzz.com
Pedal Me x Lambeth Council during the Covid-19 lockdown: The logistics of delivering 10,000 care packages using e-cargo bikes - Pedal Me
Through a collaboration with Lambeth Council, Pedal Me demonstrated that e-cargo bikes offer a clear alternative to vans for large scale logistics operations.
pedalme.co.uk
teuchter
je suis teuchter
They do actually mention that they welcome volunteers with cargo bikes on their website -
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
And that’s the main thing! Merry Christmas each and everyone of us
Regarding the rest of the post, spin is an interesting thing isn’t it? Where’s the story on “food bank drops slowed down because some other relatively privileged people* can’t face not using their cars?”
*normal disclaimers applied
sparkybird
ask the bird...
Of course it's nothing to do with 13 years of Tory cuts that mean so many people rely on food banks. Let's just blame the LTN. Assholes
Bus Stopped
Active Member
Got to say that the patronising and condescending side to some of the pro LTN people really doesn’t help. It’s often from middle class types, like the councillor in Lambeth who lives in an expensive house in Streatham Hill. You can get points across without doing it.
Bus Stopped
Active Member
And that’s the main thing! Merry Christmas each and everyone of us
Regarding the rest of the post, spin is an interesting thing isn’t it? Where’s the story on “food bank drops slowed down because some other relatively privileged people* can’t face not using their cars?”
*normal disclaimers applied
Firstly there are a lot of working class people who rely on their cars, it’s a bit much to call everyone having issues with the LTN who is a car driver “relatively privileged”. It did make me laugh earlier in this thread when a poster listed all the activities they and their kids do and how they do it all fine. As if everyone has the means and money to do that.
But that aside the LTN clearly isn’t stopping people from using their cars, hence all the huge traffic jams on Streatham high street, greyhound lane, from Norbury going in to Streatham etc making bus journeys far more difficult and bringing commuting traffic to a standstill. If that doesn’t change it’s clearly not working. Hopefully it will. But people can gnash their teeth all they want at car users but so what if it doesn’t work?
Bus Stopped
Active Member
Definitely agree on that.
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
* “everyone” is a rather interesting jump from “some”, which is what I originally wrote.
And I don’t think it’s too much of an assumption to think that a fair chuck of people on the roads recently are probably relatively privileged compared to the majority relying on food banks this Christmas. Which I only raised as a counter argument in the first place to the “LTNs are starving people” implications from the quoted Tory posts.** you do know that elsewhere a HUGE amount of anti-LTN arguments boil down to reasons such as not being able to ferry kids and themselves to various leisure activities and losing freedom to visit different parts of London whenever they want?
As I said earlier, there are lots of reasons why people feel they are reliant on cars and when you break it down, millage definitely varies. I agree it’s completely unfair to say some people don’t have a genuine need to drive (as I have said multiple times on here, my god how many time have I said it
), but it’s also ridiculous to say that some others aren’t stuck in a certain mindset at best, and are just stubbornly refusing to consider alternates at worst. But whilst you’re throwing out the “some working class people have cars so it’s hypocritical to ever suggest any possible privilege as a factor ” argument, yes they do but it still costs a lot to run and use a car in London, enough to make it impossible for a considerable amount of people. A quick search suggests something like £3500 a year/£250 odd a month not even including buying the car to start with or congestion charges. So a lot more expensive than a few family activities (which numerous families who regularly use cars also do anyway, see ** point above). And likewise, making generalisations about families who could use a car but instead choose to prioritise different things is a bit rich.
But see how easy it is to get into whataboutery and leaping onto horribly generalising any points made by saying “what about x group of people”? It just creates these horrible polarised arguments and completely detracts from the point I was actually making which was
and how do we make that the discussion, one where they can actually be some progress and consensus? Because that ain’t happening right now.
I’ve re-read this and I really hope that it comes across that I am very aware that there’s complexity here, but a) I don’t agree that you shouldn’t raise criticisms that apply to some if not all people, and b) I really don’t want to have my words twisted again and be drawn into a pointless argument this close to Christmas. So I’ll be hiding the thread for a while. Seasons greetings.
Bus Stopped
Active Member
* “everyone” is a rather interesting jump from “some”, which is what I originally wrote.
** you do know that elsewhere a HUGE amount of anti-LTN arguments boil down to reasons such as not being able to ferry kids and themselves to various leisure activities and losing freedom to visit different parts of London whenever they want?
As I said earlier, there are lots of reasons why people feel they are reliant on cars and when you break it down, millage definitely varies. I agree it’s completely unfair to say some people don’t have a genuine need to drive (as I have said multiple times on here, my god how many time have I said it
But whilst you’re throwing out the “some working class people have cars so it’s hypocritical to ever suggest any possible privilege as a factor ” argument, yes they do but it still costs a lot to run and use a car in London, enough to make it impossible for a considerable amount of people. A quick search suggests something like £3500 a year/£250 odd a month not even including buying the car to start with or congestion charges. So a lot more expensive than a few family activities (which numerous families who regularly use cars also do anyway, see ** point above). And likewise, making generalisations about families who could use a car but instead choose to prioritise different things is a bit rich.
But see how easy it is to get into whataboutery and leaping onto horribly generalising any points made by saying “what about x group of people”? It just creates these horrible polarised arguments and completely detracts from the point I was actually making which was
and how do we make that the discussion, one where they can actually be some progress and consensus? Because that ain’t happening right now.
I’ve re-read this and I really hope that it comes across that I am very aware that there’s complexity here, but a) I don’t agree that you shouldn’t raise criticisms that apply to some if not all people, and b) I really don’t want to have my words twisted again and be drawn into a pointless argument this close to Christmas. So I’ll be hiding the thread for a while. Seasons greetings.
I apologise if I over stepped the mark. As I’ve tried to explain in a few posts I have more sympathy with the pro LTN camp than the anti LTN camp. I can’t stand the Tory and alt right band wagon that is anti LTN and adds all the 15 minute city conspiracy bollocks.
Partly I was irritated by the unbelievably patronising and snobby post which was taking the piss out of someone’s spelling and liked by quite a few people. I hate that condescending shit that belittles people and is almost always done by middle class types.
As for LTNs you get the tosser 4 by 4 lot on one side (who are the worst) and the zealot like centrist dad types on the other. Obviously that’s only a section of people but they tend to be prominent on social media.
I would like to see the end of private ownership of cars altogether but given that’s a way off it seems, then I don’t want an LTN if it keeps causing this many issues. But it might well level off. Let’s see but if it doesn’t surely this can’t go on for 18 months. And as also said the LTNs before this seem to have worked fairly well (again I’m baffled why residents in LTNs aren’t allowed through the cameras, but that’s only one issue).
But we need very radical action, far more than LTNs which I think have a fairly minimal impact on car use. How we get more radical policies, I really don’t know. I’m in favour of ULEZ, 20mph, and most of the LTNs. But we need far, far more. And in the mean time don’t need bad LTNs that will be counter productive.
Merry Christmas also and my moaning above wasn’t directed at you but my general annoyance.
Unsure what you mean by this - that the councillor is patronising (well name them then) or that having an expensive house (aren’t they all expensive?) in the borough should exclude you from being a councillor.
Cat Fan
Cats and stats
On a more positive note, the new 20mph restrictions (with speed cameras) on A23 and South Circular seem to have improved pedestrian safety and traffic flow, from my limited experience so far as an occasional driver.
I think I am in the minority who like 20mph restrictions and speed cameras
Also a bit confused by why people are calling out kids being driven to leisure activities as something that should be discouraged? Isn't it the single person car journeys that take place at peak time and doing the school run in a car that should be discouraged if anything?
I think I am in the minority who like 20mph restrictions and speed cameras
Also a bit confused by why people are calling out kids being driven to leisure activities as something that should be discouraged? Isn't it the single person car journeys that take place at peak time and doing the school run in a car that should be discouraged if anything?
sparkybird
ask the bird...
Regards your point about why residents aren't given exemptions, I was told by Lambeth that it's the residents that they are trying to target regards reducing short car journeys. Eg my neighbour drives her car to the High Road (she's capable of walking) whereas you can walk it in 10 mins.
They explained it that, if residents were given exemptions then it makes it even easier for them to do this type of journey as all non local traffic is excluded.
I could see the sense in that.
I also reckon that non local drivers would see exemption residents drive through without knowing why, follow them and get a fine
Cat Fan
Cats and stats
The high road is generally not covered by any filters, so has the LTN changed your neighbour's behaviour at all?
Suspect there are large parts of London where 20mph limits improve journey time and reduce pollution due to improved flow.
I’ve not seen the speed cameras, they will be making a fortune from those
Cat Fan
Cats and stats
Actually the whole of Lambeth has been 20mph for a while, but it didn't apply to the TFL roads until now. Problem on the side streets is without cameras people ignore it
Bus Stopped
Active Member
They do ignore it to some extent but I think it gradually changes the culture of driving. 30mph, to me anyway, would seem very fast on a residential side road now.
Bus Stopped
Active Member
To be honest they are fair points.
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
Thank you for the apology and gracious post, it’s not easy to do in this sort of environment and I appreciate it.
<snip for personal stuff but with general theme that many families have to prioritise different things based on individual needs>
Btw I will probably edit that paragraph in the next 24 hours (is that still the rule outside of community?) so I’d appreciate no quoting. And I’m still stepping out of the LTN discussion for now as I’m not sure I’ve got much else to say! But yes, Merry Christmas each and everyone
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Bus Stopped
Active Member
I feel even more humble now. I was irritated by the post I described and then also lashed out given some of my IRL experiences. Just shows how you shouldn’t comment until you know people’s circumstances. It sounds like you do wonderful things for your kids. My apologies again.
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
Honestly it’s all good. Glad to clear the air
sparkybird
ask the bird...
Unlikely because luckily for them the filter got moved so they can still make the same journey.
But if they lived in a different part of the road then I imagine it would
I’m not sure if it continued post lockdown, but there was a great shebeen vibe on Elm Park during covid, with music and barbecues, people enjoying a drink in the good weather.
These changes should bring that energy back.
It would be good to see if it means that row of shops coming back to life too. 15 years ago they were all going concerns, workaday places for sure, but useful ones. First the chippie went, and the two grocery places became one and then absorbed the post office after it closed. That created two more vacant units. Not sure how the record shop and cafe keep going - if indeed they still do. Can’t recall seeing the launderette open for some years either. And the EPT has had many ups and downs.
New interation of the EPT seems to be going strong & busier than it’s ever been. The record shop seems to be regularly opening again - believe a lot is done on postal orders.
Some people seem to blame the shops struggling on the LTN and that these changes will affect them further but truth is the shops have been struggling for much longer and suspect the main reason is people with cars just don’t use them but drive to bigger shops. These changes making it a nicer place to be should surely help.
BusLanes
Pedestrian
There was a bit of that vibe pre lockdown too in summer
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