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Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

https://www.islingtongazette.co.uk/news/crime/islington-council-candidate-spared-jail-for-knife-conviction-8476480

Jody Graber, the anti LTN islington campaigner who's spoken at two of the OLJ events / demos has got a suspended sentence for possession of an offensive weapon (a knife in his car).

I think this means he can no longer stand as a councillor - which he intended on doing (again) using funds that were donated to the Islington anti LTN campaign that he allegedly repurposed to his own political ambitions...
 
teuchter said:
The warning is the road sign that clearly tells you you aren't allowed to drive through. Is it too much to expect people to read and understand road signage?
Click to expand...
I do not drive fast Tom and i look at the road when i am driving around the roundabout.
Actually now you mention signage at certain times when driving there might be 3 road signs at the side of the road plus signage on the road surface. There has to be a limit on signage as it is too much for a normal human being to take in whilst driving with due care and attention
 
sparkybird said:
There was a grace period of, I think a month, for all drivers who got caught driving though where they shouldn't have. They got a warning letter or letters but no fine
Click to expand...
That is exactly what i was referring to.
Instead of the grace period why didn't they send each 1st offender a warning.
I hadn't driven down this rd in the last year - the grace period meant nothing for me
 
Johnythefox said:
That is exactly what i was referring to.
Instead of the grace period why didn't they send each 1st offender a warning.
I hadn't driven down this rd in the last year - the grace period meant nothing for me
Click to expand...
I imagine that it's less work and therefore cheaper just to have a blanket grace period than to try and work out if it's the first offense for each car.
 
sparkybird said:
I imagine that it's less work and therefore cheaper just to have a blanket grace period than to try and work out if it's the first offense for each car.
Click to expand...
Possibly - but they have your registration - so with an easy algorithm it would be simple enough. This will be my third fine this year for the same reason. I have been driving very steadily for 40 yrs without any colissions or fines. And now because I have learned to use the back roads over the years i feel nervous driving. I feel I should give my full concentration to the road when going around a roundabout - i believe that is the right thing to do. Thanks fo your reply
 
Johnythefox said:
That is exactly what i was referring to.
Instead of the grace period why didn't they send each 1st offender a warning.
I hadn't driven down this rd in the last year - the grace period meant nothing for me
Click to expand...


Johnythefox said:
Actually now you mention signage at certain times when driving there might be 3 road signs at the side of the road plus signage on the road surface. There has to be a limit on signage as it is too much for a normal human being to take in whilst driving with due care and attention
Click to expand...

---
So, despite a mass of publicity (positive and negative) about Lambeth's LTNs in the last year and quite obvious changes to the road (planters, and a mass of new signage), and widespread coverage in the press about LTNs (which much surely have done a lot to raise awareness of the 'flying motorbike' signs and what they mean you still managed to drive through a filter?

That level of 'autopilot' driving does scare me quite a bit. If drivers are paying that little attention to their surroundings how likely are they to notice something unexpected - a child stepping out, someone on a bike or whatever.

I actually agree with you on the signage though - far too often the solution to danger from drivers seems to be 'signs will make it better'. There's been a rash of recent road painting around Brixton with more 20mph symbols painted in the road. The whole borough is 20mph now - none of those should be necessary, it's just more clutter.

Theres a load of signage in all the LTNs - there were signs before they went in, red signs on the edge (no access to X road from X type stuff), the no motor vehicles signs, signs saying 'enforcement cameras now live' all over the place (which surely shouldn't be necessary - you shouldn't need an active camera to obey traffic rules)

Likewise all the yellow lines - in London at least we could have a clear policy that you can park in marked bays only (with signage giving conditions - whether pay/resident or time restrictions). Everywhere else should be no parking at any time.
 
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Johnythefox said:
Possibly - but they have your registration - so with an easy algorithm it would be simple enough. This will be my third fine this year for the same reason. I have been driving very steadily for 40 yrs without any colissions or fines. And now because I have learned to use the back roads over the years i feel nervous driving. I feel I should give my full concentration to the road when going around a roundabout - i believe that is the right thing to do. Thanks fo your reply
Click to expand...
So you use rat runs and then moan you’ve been caught three times? Get to fuck :D
 
I think they might be talking about a location where one of the exits from a mini roundabout goes directly into a bus gate. But I'm not familiar with the setup in the Streatham LTN and it's not shown on google streetview so hard to say whether it's a reasonable objection.
 
sleaterkinney said:
Taxis are one of the worst polluters, driving around looking for business, which is mostly rich people not wanting to take public transport.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure black cabs spend about 50% of their time empty, looking for fares. Which is going to be about the same as old school minicabs based at an office and heading out on a trip, back empty.

Uber should be better in theory as they shouldn't need to cruise around - the app should send then to a nearby fare. But I read that, because Uber recruited so many drivers (so that no-one ever has to wait long) and it's intensely competitive, they drive around as well so the reality has been they at they also spend half their time empty.

I don't know what the solution is - it's got to be some sort of Uber style smart job assignment but without the driving round empty. Nationalise the lot and run it as in the public interest?
 
thebackrow said:
---
So, despite a mass of publicity (positive and negative) about Lambeth's LTNs in the last year and quite obvious changes to the road (planters, and a mass of new signage), and widespread coverage in the press about LTNs (which much surely have done a lot to raise awareness of the 'flying motorbike' signs and what they mean you still managed to drive through a filter?

That level of 'autopilot' driving does scare me quite a bit. If drivers are paying that little attention to their surroundings how likely are they to notice something unexpected - a child stepping out, someone on a bike or whatever.

I actually agree with you on the signage though - far too often the solution to danger from drivers seems to be 'signs will make it better'. There's been a rash of recent road painting around Brixton with more 20mph symbols painted in the road. The whole borough is 20mph now - none of those should be necessary, it's just more clutter.

Theres a load of signage in all the LTNs - there were signs before they went in, red signs on the edge (no access to X road from X type stuff), the no motor vehicles signs, signs saying 'enforcement cameras now live' all over the place (which surely shouldn't be necessary - you shouldn't need an active camera to obey traffic rules)

Likewise all the yellow lines - in London at least we could have a clear policy that you can park in marked bays only (with signage giving conditions - whether pay/resident or time restrictions). Everywhere else should be no parking at any time.
Click to expand...
Thanks your reply. In this particular case and in Dulwich the first sign you see / not see is coming off the roundabout.
The autopilot thing - I think I have a high level of concentration - and as I said previously my concentration is fully focused on the road ahead and what's happening around when going around a bend or roundabout. I have been having a good look at the new ULEZ signs. They look like they have been designed to be hard to see.
I know where the Ulez is but these LTN's suddenly appear (if you are not a local resident) .
There were no planters or signs for me - just signs on the point of entry.
I appreciate you might think me not noticing the signs as remiss - I am a professional driver with a spotless record - but yet have had 3 LTN's in a year.
Some LTN's have time guides - so you absolutely would have to stop your car on a roundabout ( which i see happening). Surely that is so dangerous
 
beesonthewhatnow said:
So you use rat runs and then moan you’ve been caught three times? Get to fuck :D
Click to expand...
I use ratruns because i gave learned them over many years driving studying maps.
I consider it better for me and the planet for me to get home quicker and avoid being stuck in traffic with my engine running. Surely the shorter i am on the road the less I am poluting.
Please educate me if you feel i am wrong - i am open to learning
 
Johnythefox said:
I use ratruns because i gave learned them over many years driving studying maps.
I consider it better for me and the planet for me to get home quicker and avoid being stuck in traffic with my engine running. Surely the shorter i am on the road the less I am poluting.
Please educate me if you feel i am wrong - i am open to learning
Click to expand...
The problem now that everyone has access to sat navs is that the rat runners have completely overwhelmed small residential streets that were not designed for the volume of traffic they are now taking. This leads to congestion, aggressive behaviour and more idling. Over the last 10 years traffic volume on unclassified roads in London has almost doubled, while on A roads it has actually fallen.
Now do you see the problem that LTNs are trying the address?
 
Johnythefox said:
Please educate me if you feel i am wrong - i am open to learning
Click to expand...
The problem is that you think that by limiting your impact in this very minimal way, you're making a positive difference. You are making a difference, but you're actually, indirectly, making things worse. Not by the things you are doing alone, but the cumulative effect of you and lots of other people doing the same thing.

Over the last 10 (or 20) years, there's been a big increase in cars using smaller roads to speed up their journeys. Most aren't using maps, they're using sat navs and waze to find the quickest route to where they're going.

This is a problem because there is not a fixed number of car journeys that are made each day. It's been shown time and time again that if you expand road space, there are more car journeys. If you restrict space for cars, there are fewer journeys. You can read more about this here: What's Up With That: Building Bigger Roads Actually Makes Traffic Worse

Sat navs essentially open up a whole bunch of alternative routes and available road space, and LTNs are one way of reversing this. You can see this in the stats for a whole bunch of LTNs that have been referred to in this thread--Brixton, Islington, Southwark and more. The space for cars has been reduced and the amount of traffic has reduced overall. Some people are making different choices.

Your car being on the road for a slightly shorter time and polluting slightly less would be fine if the total number of car journeys was static. They're not.

A related problem is that traffic causes traffic because it stifles options. If there are no safe routes to walk or cycle, or if buses aren't given their own routes and lanes, then people decide they might as well take the car. Those who have no car are worse off because they have to walk along dangerous and unpleasant routes, or sit for longer on buses. Those who have no option but to travel by car are worse off because there are people who would take other options, but feel they cannot, in the way.
 
Johnythefox said:
I consider it better for me and the planet for me to get home quicker and avoid being stuck in traffic with my engine running. Surely the shorter i am on the road the less I am poluting.
Please educate me if you feel i am wrong - i am open to learning
Click to expand...
The problem with this logic is that while you are using the back roads, the main roads are still full of stuck traffic idling.

The busy main roads are a constant, if you like - at busy times they will be more or less full regardless of how many alternative routes there are. So the idea of the LTNs is to accept that the main roads will always have traffic on them, but at least cut out all the additional traffic using back routes. So the overall amount of traffic reduces. Obviously from your point of view, if you are a professional driver driving for your work, you will likely not like this idea if you have got used to using back roads, but the main roads stay more or less as busy as before, and you get to places as quickly or slowly as you would have done, had you previously used the main roads (as is the intention in the design of the road network. In the bigger picture though there is less traffic overall and less pollution overall.

It's controversial because some people refuse to believe that it's possible for the overall amount of traffic to reduce, and refuse to believe that it doesn't just make the main roads even busier and slower. But there's loads of evidence that shows that's not generally what happens. And often the traffic on the main roads actually reduces as well.
 
I have seen what you are referring to on certain pinch points. Personally if i have come across these situations i try to find an alternative route so that i can spend less time on the road.
From my own personal experience my journey to work in my car would take double the time when taking main roads.
 
teuchter said:
The problem with this logic is that while you are using the back roads, the main roads are still full of stuck traffic idling.

The busy main roads are a constant, if you like - at busy times they will be more or less full regardless of how many alternative routes there are. So the idea of the LTNs is to accept that the main roads will always have traffic on them, but at least cut out all the additional traffic using back routes. So the overall amount of traffic reduces. Obviously from your point of view, if you are a professional driver driving for your work, you will likely not like this idea if you have got used to using back roads, but the main roads stay more or less as busy as before, and you get to places as quickly or slowly as you would have done, had you previously used the main roads (as is the intention in the design of the road network. In the bigger picture though there is less traffic overall and less pollution overall.

It's controversial because some people refuse to believe that it's possible for the overall amount of traffic to reduce, and refuse to believe that it doesn't just make the main roads even busier and slower. But there's loads of evidence that shows that's not generally what happens. And often the traffic on the main roads actually reduces as well.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your very informative thought provoking reply
 
Johnythefox said:
Thanks your reply. In this particular case and in Dulwich the first sign you see / not see is coming off the roundabout.
The autopilot thing - I think I have a high level of concentration - and as I said previously my concentration is fully focused on the road ahead and what's happening around when going around a bend or roundabout. I have been having a good look at the new ULEZ signs. They look like they have been designed to be hard to see.
I know where the Ulez is but these LTN's suddenly appear (if you are not a local resident) .
There were no planters or signs for me - just signs on the point of entry.
I appreciate you might think me not noticing the signs as remiss - I am a professional driver with a spotless record - but yet have had 3 LTN's in a year.
Some LTN's have time guides - so you absolutely would have to stop your car on a roundabout ( which i see happening). Surely that is so dangerous
Click to expand...
Sorry - perhaps I misunderstood your post. I thought you mentioned palace road / hillside?
Post in thread 'Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists'
Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

Dulwich is confusing, not least as it’s timed. Much clearer for stuff to be all hours (not least people want to travel safely by bike off peak)
 
liquidindian said:
The problem is that you think that by limiting your impact in this very minimal way, you're making a positive difference. You are making a difference, but you're actually, indirectly, making things worse. Not by the things you are doing alone, but the cumulative effect of you and lots of other people doing the same thing.

Over the last 10 (or 20) years, there's been a big increase in cars using smaller roads to speed up their journeys. Most aren't using maps, they're using sat navs and waze to find the quickest route to where they're going.

This is a problem because there is not a fixed number of car journeys that are made each day. It's been shown time and time again that if you expand road space, there are more car journeys. If you restrict space for cars, there are fewer journeys. You can read more about this here: What's Up With That: Building Bigger Roads Actually Makes Traffic Worse

Sat navs essentially open up a whole bunch of alternative routes and available road space, and LTNs are one way of reversing this. You can see this in the stats for a whole bunch of LTNs that have been referred to in this thread--Brixton, Islington, Southwark and more. The space for cars has been reduced and the amount of traffic has reduced overall. Some people are making different choices.

Your car being on the road for a slightly shorter time and polluting slightly less would be fine if the total number of car journeys was static. They're not.

A related problem is that traffic causes traffic because it stifles options. If there are no safe routes to walk or cycle, or if buses aren't given their own routes and lanes, then people decide they might as well take the car. Those who have no car are worse off because they have to walk along dangerous and unpleasant routes, or sit for longer on buses. Those who have no option but to travel by car are worse off because there are people who would take other options, but feel they cannot, in the way.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your informative reply.
I have to confess I would still find it a dishonourable thing to do to spend double the time on the road.
 
beesonthewhatnow said:
So look at alternatives.
Click to expand...
I presume you mean different modes of transport. Unfortunately there is no public transport near my place of work. I would probably still own a car even if i didn't use it for work . That must sound so stupid but ironically one of the main reasons i would keep t would be to get out of London into the countryside.
 
edcraw said:
How do LTNs make you spend twice as long on the road? That’s only for v short trips presumably.
Click to expand...
By avoiding LTN'S I take the main roads and am sitting still in my car in a long line of traffic polluting the planet whilst not actually moving ( at least that is how it feels)
 
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