Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[edcraw]

...what’s your opinion on e-scooters edcraw ?

I think they can be a great solution to moving people around whilst reducing pollution & freeing up road space along with encouraging cycling and e-bikes. Much better than everyone travelling around in metal boxes with 3 piece suites. Legislation should be changed to make them legal and enforcement of speed restrictions.

If I was campaigning against LTNs I’d be supportive of them to prove I was serious about reducing pollution and wasn’t just fixated on everyone driving everywhere.

 

[cuppa tee]

I think they can be a great solution to moving people around whilst reducing pollution & freeing up road space along with encouraging cycling and e-bikes. Much better than everyone travelling around in metal boxes with 3 piece suites. Legislation should be changed to make them legal and enforcement of speed restrictions.

If I was campaigning against LTNs I’d be supportive of them to prove I was serious about reducing pollution and wasn’t just fixated on everyone driving everywhere.

...do you think they should be licensed, and that riders should have to take some kind of test to prove they are sufficiently competent and considerate to the other people, notably the very old, the very young and people with visual/auditory issues, also the less mobile ?

e2a, also do you think there should be an lower age cut off for users, and what about the ones who go two up at high speed ?

 

[edcraw]

...do you think they should be licensed, and that riders should have to take some kind of test to prove they are sufficiently competent and considerate to the other people, notably the very old, the very young and people with visual/auditory issues, also the less mobile ?

I’m not sure to be honest but I hope better qualified people than me are looking at how it can work.

 

[cuppa tee]

I’m not sure to be honest but I hope better qualified people than me are looking at how it can work.

that’s a bit of a cop out considering the hard time you have given people on this thread.
i am starting to see more of these things being dumped, what might look good in theory could turn out to be a nightmare,
I see them as lumps of unrecycleable plastic packed with dodgy electrics and big toxic batteries.
they're a bit like lily allens £99 vibrator, ie consumerist shite...the next big thing but a load of landfill in a year or two.once the batteries/wheels are paggered....and they are not active travel either...

 

[edcraw]

that’s a bit of a cop out considering the hard time you have given people on this thread.

If this was a thread about e-scooters I’d agree with you

I don’t know the figures but they must be levels of magnitude more efficient than cars.

 

[liquidindian]

You're not asking me but:

- Having shared cycle lanes and roads like Railton Road with them, they seem perfectly safe on cycle infrastructure and filtered roads. On busy roads, I'm not so sure, and they're definitely not suitable on pavements. So if you want safe escooter routes (for everyone) they'll look a lot like safe cycle routes.
- Dockless escooters that can be dumped anywhere are a disaster, especially for wheelchair users and anyone partially sighted or blind. You need docks or specified parking areas.
- They need to be regulated, and have a top speed. I can't see why the same sort of regulations as ebikes can't work. Over a certain power limit and speed, it becomes a different category of vehicle and you need insurance, license etc.
- It's not active travel, so it's not going to solve the problems of inactivity.
- The way people look at risk is WEIRD. I think one big problem self-driving cars will face, if they ever work, is that we simply won't accept anything new on our roads that's even a fraction as dangerous as cars. But we're seeing this effect in action now with escooters. Five road deaths a day are fine, but new and novel escooter injuries and deaths at a much lower rate are unacceptable.

 

[cuppa tee]

If this was a thread about e-scooters I’d agree with you

I don’t know the figures but they must be levels of magnitude more efficient than cars.

sorry, but you said you saw them as a good thing in terms of mass transit so I think some examination of the pros and cons is , valid on this thread. Anecdotally I know a lot of pedestrians who have issues with them, all you offer is a vague hope they will be regulated, bput I can’t see enforcement happening any time soon...

 

[cuppa tee]

You're not asking me but:

- Having shared cycle lanes and roads like Railton Road with them, they seem perfectly safe on cycle infrastructure and filtered roads. On busy roads, I'm not so sure, and they're definitely not suitable on pavements. So if you want safe escooter routes (for everyone) they'll look a lot like safe cycle routes.
- Dockless escooters that can be dumped anywhere are a disaster, especially for wheelchair users and anyone partially sighted or blind. You need docks or specified parking areas.
- They need to be regulated, and have a top speed. I can't see why the same sort of regulations as ebikes can't work. Over a certain power limit and speed, it becomes a different category of vehicle and you need insurance, license etc.
- It's not active travel, so it's not going to solve the problems of inactivity.
- The way people look at risk is WEIRD. I think one big problem self-driving cars will face, if they ever work, is that we simply won't accept anything new on our roads that's even a fraction as dangerous as cars. But we're seeing this effect in action now with escooters. Five road deaths a day are fine, but new and novel escooter injuries and deaths at a much lower rate are unacceptable.

Apologies liquidindian , I was not leaving you out intentionally, the more the merrier as ever, you make some good points.

 

[edcraw]

sorry, but you said you saw them as a good thing in terms of mass transit so I think some examination of the pros and cons is , valid on this thread. Anecdotally I know a lot of pedestrians who have issues with them, all you offer is a vague hope they will be regulated, bput I can’t see enforcement happening any time soon...

My thinkings along the same lines as liquidindian if that helps.

 

[liquidindian]

I can’t see enforcement happening any time soon...

Enforcement of current regulation has been happening, and I think has ramped up recently with the trial schemes in certain boroughs going live. The police were confiscating them just before Blackfriars Bridge at 8am a few weeks back, which must have been pretty successful.

 

[cuppa tee]

My thinkings along the same lines as liquidindian if that helps.

thanks, see that was not difficult but I appreciate you may not have the time to reply at length so I won’t press you or liquidindian on my theory that Escooters are basically problematic in the long run along with other examples of modish consumerist fetishes.

 

[liquidindian]

I mean we had "5GHz is different from 5G" so who's to say "capitalism isn't great" is off limits?

 

[teuchter]

As long as they are speed limited, there's really no reason to treat escooters differently from bikes. I don't see they are fundamentally more dangerous to pedestrians than bikes. Neither should be tearing around on pavements.

Cycling can have an image problem that means certain demographics are put off it. It's very noticeable that the demographic starting to use escooters is a bit different. They offer a cheap way for people to have mobility without a car. They can use the same infrastructure as bikes. They aren't quite active travel perhaps, but i don't think that matters. A journey on an escooter is massively less harmful than a journey in a car.

I think calls for them to be licensed, etc etc should be resisted for the same reason that calls to have pedal bikes licensed should be resisted. They give people affordable low impact mobility and they extent that outside of the stereotypical cyclist demographic. More escooters means more demand for the same infrastructure that makes cycling safer too.

These arguments have all been had out on the escooter thread though.

 

[cuppa tee]

As long as they are speed limited, there's really no reason to treat escooters differently from bikes. I don't see they are fundamentally more dangerous to pedestrians than bikes. Neither should be tearing around on pavements.

Cycling can have an image problem that means certain demographics are put off it. It's very noticeable that the demographic starting to use escooters is a bit different. They offer a cheap way for people to have mobility without a car. They can use the same infrastructure as bikes. They aren't quite active travel perhaps, but i don't think that matters. A journey on an escooter is massively less harmful than a journey in a car.

I think calls for them to be licensed, etc etc should be resisted for the same reason that calls to have pedal bikes licensed should be resisted. They give people affordable low impact mobility and they extent that outside of the stereotypical cyclist demographic. More escooters means more demand for the same infrastructure that makes cycling safer too.

These arguments have all been had out on the escooter thread though.

I tried to find the e scooter thread earlier so edcraw and liquidindian could have a look, there is a lot going on the boards outside this thread that they might enjoy....could you post a link plz..

 

[teuchter]

Electric scooters

Well this is a thread for everything E Scooter related. They are becoming more and more common. The govt are reviewing the law and are likely to liberalise it. Plus.... Lidl got them in from Thursday 04 April 2019. £179 with a full two year warranty. 24 KMH 30 KM range Lights front and...

www.urban75.net

 

[teuchter]

The thing about pedestrians (esp elderly, partially sighted, etc) being unnerved by escooters shouldn't be ignored by the way. People riding them need to be conscious of this and I would support enforcement and fines for people misusing them on pavements and so on (and confiscating ones that have been modded to go very fast) just like I'd support any enforcement of 20mph speed limits for cars. In the longer term it should be wrapped up within cycling proficiency lessons at school (do they still exist?) What is crap is people who've bought an escooter in Halfords, used it to go to work or something and found it confiscated just because they are not technically legal yet - while we see basically no enforcement of 20 limits.

And I'm pretty sure that some of the "concern about pedestrian safety" is just a cover for people who don't like them because they get in the way of their car and they "aren't paying road tax". Certainly that'll be the motivation behind some of the accounts you see One Lambeth Justice retweeting. I'd like to see more of them getting in the way of people's cars, by which I don't mean weaving all over the place causing accidents, I mean a general reclamation of street space alongside bikes and pedestrians. At the moment I am seeing road space being reclaimed by people who are not middle aged, middle class white male commuters and I think it's great.

 

[BigTom]

In the longer term it should be wrapped up within cycling proficiency lessons at school (do they still exist?)

Yes although "cycling proficiency" was scrapped about 20 years ago and replaced with a national standard for cycle training which is taught in schools as "Bikeability".

iirc DfT provide enough funding nationally for about 50% of children to have lessons but it's often hard to get schools to want to take part and the take-up is not even that high in many areas. Some schools (and parents) have the attitude that cycling is too dangerous and children should not be cycling to school so they refuse to arrange (or have their kids take part in) Bikeability classes.

Personally i think that all children (who can ride a bike or adapted bike) should be trained at school, like we do pedestrian training with all children. Over time this means everyone is trained and there is no need for licencing.

I would include scooters and e-scooters in this. I think the way you should use roads on them is very similar to bikes and as others have said i think they should be treated essentially as e-bikes (speed limited, cycle lanes/roads/shared pavements only).

 

[alex_]

Cycling can have an image problem that means certain demographics are put off it. It's very noticeable that the demographic starting to use escooters is a bit different.

Any bets as to why the met is becoming more interested in escooters ?

 

[Winot]

Any bets as to why the met is becoming more interested in escooters ?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

If only there was a way to make the roads safer for pedestrians, cyclists, scooters and well, everybody

 

[teuchter]

This account is full of anti-LTN tweets, of course.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Yeah, London was famous for having zero muggings until these scooters appeared on the scene. Such a shame.

 

[editor]

Judging by the comments on the Buzz article, the latest tactic by the anti-LTN mob is to suggest that the "Boris backed" LTNs are "Tory plans" designed to create 'create middle class gentrified enclaves and are inherently anti-working class.

I do believe this response from a reader nails it:

Here we have it – straight out of the Farage rulebook. Knowing that Lambeth is a staunch Labour-voting borough, and knowing that most people reading these comments will do so in a hurry and won’t have time to check what they read, “Sandy” is now trolling all of us.

Spot the vague allusion to LTNs being “in the Tory 2019 election manifesto to ‘make side streets nicer to live on’ I believe.” There’s no such thing in the 2019 Tory election manifesto. The main problem with that manifesto was the £28 billion – yes, billion – that it proposed for “strategic road building”. It says nothing about LTNs. Or active travel. Or reducing car use.

What “Sandy” is doing here is peddling fake news in a hysterical manner, associating it with a party he or she knows is unpopular around here, to make people feel angry. That’s all. Don’t fall for it.

Anyone who has been to my ward – Coldharbour – will know that long-established LTNs have prevented traffic from driving through estates, where the people in the area on the lowest incomes live, since the 1950s when planners first realised what a curse the car is to health and safety. The Barrier Block, the Loughborough Park Estate, and further afield the Tulse Hill and St Matthews Estates. Nobody in those estates would vote for the return of through-traffic.

Most other people in the area live in Victorian housing stock, now also increasingly protected from through-traffic by LTNs. In those areas you find a mix of social and private housing. Walk down Railton and Rattray Roads and actually find out who lives behind the front doors – there are plenty of people in those streets living on low incomes. And the census backs that up. They’re now all now protected from through-traffic.

There’s no evidence that pollution has increased due to LTNs. Even so, main roads are the last mile, and we should bring LTNs to them next.

 

[Gramsci]

On E Scooters.

Police have been cracking down on them. This mysteriously Coincided with the so called legit hire versions coming out. Funny that.

I have mixed feelings about the scooters. I've seen some appaling behaviour from E Scooter riders. Going full pelt on the pavement then jumping in the road in front of me.

The same kind of behaviour I regularly get from Deliveroo riders on electric bikes.

I just wish people would behave a bit more reasonably.

As a cyclist my main problems re other road users are,

Mopeds. They cut and weave all over the place.
Deliveroo electric bikes.
Cyclists trying to overtake in inside as I'm trying to turn left.

Ive noticed as more two wheels on the roads the comaraderie has decreased. To many two wheelers just intent on getting where they want and not caring about others. I don't get into being a stickler for the rules but a certain amount of courtesy and etiquette on the road with other two wheel users is something I feel has gone a bit.

Cars are down on the list.

 

[Gramsci]

To add articulated lorries.

Went past the accident on Southampton Way / Bloomsbury Way crossroad this morning.

Medics trying to save person. Air Ambulance waiting. Read later she died on the scene.

I do think large articulated lorries with no escort shouldn't be allowed in Central London in daytime.

To add. Haven't read much. But when I saw this large articulated lorry and bike assumed this was the classic bike under articulated lorry scenerio. Artics of that size are deceptive they move right to then turn left. That size artic IMO needs escort like on motorways.

 

[liquidindian]

LTNs are "Tory plans" designed to create 'create middle class gentrified enclaves and are inherently anti-working class

(A difficult question at any time but) How do you explain Tim Briggs?

Also Sir Keir Starmer backs LTNs and segregated cycle lanes: ‘There’s always pushback but then they settle down’

 

[Gramsci]

On E scooters / e bikes and so called active travel.

An argument put forward for LTNs is that it gets people out of cars and exercising more.

E Scooters and E Bikes are getting better and better. To the point where the active travel argument won't work.

Im not criticising this. Just pointing out that alternatives will be found.

 

[edcraw]

On E scooters / e bikes and so called active travel.

An argument put forward for LTNs is that it gets people out of cars and exercising more.

E Scooters and E Bikes are getting better and better. To the point where the active travel argument won't work.

Im not criticising this. Just pointing out that alternatives will be found.

Yeah, e-scooters aren’t active travel but e-bikes are as you need to pedal for the motor to work (though some modify this to bypass that which I think is illegal).

 

[Gramsci]

Yeah, e-scooters aren’t active travel but e-bikes are as you need to pedal for the motor to work (though some modify this to bypass that which I think is illegal).

Problem with bypass is that it eats up the battery.

 

[toblerone3]

Judging by the comments on the Buzz article, the latest tactic by the anti-LTN mob is to suggest that the "Boris backed" LTNs are "Tory plans" designed to create 'create middle class gentrified enclaves and are inherently anti-working class.

I do believe this response from a reader nails it:

Errr....