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British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

littlebabyjesus said:
Everyone affected by these laws and rulings should be told about it, of course. Particularly children and those who have made no attempt whatever to obtain dual nationality.

Hence the need to teach this in school. Like PM, I wasn't taught anything like a Civics class in school. I've no idea if these things are taught now. They're standard fare in many countries. Should be here. You think everyone is going to think this is all fair and dandy? You don't, do you? You know full well that being told your citizenship isn't worth as much as that of others due to your heritage is going to fuck people off. If they were already feeling alienated, this is simply going to reinforce those feelings. I think you badly underestimate the damage the UK government is causing with these actions. Aside from the manifest injustice, their current policies are deeply stupid and self-defeating.
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I disagree that their citizenship is worth less than others. You insist on framing this in terms of unfairness but I don't see it that way and it doesn't have to be taught in schools at all. People with nationality bestowed by js are free to renounce it and be afforded exactly the same status and rights as single citizens. Bangladesh even has very clear guidelines on their website about how to do it for yourself or your children. Your earlier point about the amendment is valid but we've yet to see it happen and I don't see how it can avoid the statelessness test. Anyway that's certainly not the case with Begum, Letts, et al.
 
Pickman's model said:
Do schools teach people about their rights? It certainly wasn't my experience, and things have become rather more complicated in the period since I left school with the importance of eg data rights and so on. Since people don't seem to be taught how to write essays at school, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if rights were passed over in silence.
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People are taught to write essays in school. Far more explicitly than they were in my day. I've taught equality act stuff (ie. the right to not be discriminated against) as part of pshe and many schools teach 'citizenship' these days so I would think there's room on the syllabus.
 
Spymaster said:
People with nationality bestowed by js are free to renounce it and be afforded exactly the same status and rights as single citizens.
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Not if they don't know about it, they're not. You're still placing the onus on people (in this case, children) to research this area and contact the relevant authorities. If you can't see what is wrong with that, I can't really help you.
 
I can't think of any reason why the government wouldn't find it useful to use this power more and more pushing the "conducive to the public good" law to its limit just to save money aside from anything else, its so much cheaper to buy a one way deportation ticket and dump people wherever than to pay for their trials and imprisonment.
 
bimble said:
I can't think of any reason why the government wouldn't find it useful to use this power more and more pushing the "conducive to the public good" law to its limit just to save money aside from anything else, its so much cheaper to buy a one way deportation ticket and dump people wherever than to pay for their trials and imprisonment.
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it also saves potential embarrassment should trials collapse, as any begum one might, for want of your actual evidence
 
bimble said:
I can't think of any reason why the government wouldn't find it useful to use this power more and more pushing the "conducive to the public good" law to its limit just to save money aside from anything else, its so much cheaper to buy a one way deportation ticket and dump people wherever than to pay for their trials and imprisonment.
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Hmm. They actually need people at the moment to fill vacancies so doesn’t make sense to be deporting all and sundry.
 
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littlebabyjesus said:
Not if they don't know about it, they're not. You're still placing the onus on people (in this case, children) to research this area and contact the relevant authorities. If you can't see what is wrong with that, I can't really help you.
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I'm really not seeking your assistance so no worries on that front.

You say "placing the onus on people", I say making them aware of their options. The people we are talking about are at a significant rights advantage over single citizens. All that needs to be done is to make them aware of the few disadvantages that are never going to affect 99% of them and let the other 1% know that they can "opt out" too.

I actually wonder if there is any genuine outrage among the js communities over this at all. Can you point to any? Or is this just people like you trying to inflame a situation that very few who could ever actually be affected truly give a fuck about? People like bimble are so outraged by this that they actively go to great lengths and expense to put themselves in exactly the situation that you both find so horrifyingly divisive!

You should save your ire for the nations that foist unrequested citizenships on people. Not the scores of others who'll withdraw theirs in what are still highly unlikely circumstances.
 
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lol yeah, I'm inflaming the situation. If people get pissed off about it, it's because of people like me pointing out the inequality and injustice. If only we would just keep quiet and let the government go about its lawful business.

Said Vladimir Putin.
 
I think one thing we can say about Islamist terrorist death cult type organisations is that neither the ideology or the practices lend themselves to a sober consideration of potential off-ramps and alternative life paths for when the party turns sour.
 
Spymaster said:
Fabricating the inequality and injustice, more like.

I think we're done here.
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Yeah you're the one who should be offended here, clearly.

I haven't fabricated a damn thing. You have no answers to the various questions this issue raises so you're reduced to accusing me and others of inflaming the situation. Not your finest hour, this thread.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Yeah you're the one who should be offended here, clearly.

I haven't fabricated a damn thing. You have no answers to the various questions this issue raises so you're reduced to accusing me and others of inflaming the situation. Not your finest hour, this thread.
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Oh fuck off. I've addressed your "issues" individually and in detail.

You started this particular episode by basing your argument on a complete misunderstanding of the legal issues, then when the penny dropped you quietly moved the goalposts to argue that the value of citizenship of those with DC was diminished despite them being able to revert to single citizenship by filling out a form. That's a view that I disagree with but at least it's not flat-out wrong like most of your other arguments on this thread over the last 4 years, so congratulations on that.

Finest hour my arse, you old fraud.
 
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I don't think there are any good answers to this one but, IMV, stripping her of her citizenship was not a good move and is not, very generally speaking, a good route forwards.

Ultimately, I think probably the best route forwards would be to make a show of repatriating all of our former IS fighters/sympathisers and then to put as many as possible on trial for treason in a very public way. Perhaps even consider implementing the death penalty or, at the very least, whole life tariffs.

That said, I do think the most likely outcome re: Begum is that she would be repatriated, would probably escape any harsh punishment (perhaps a handful of years in some relatively comfortable women's prison) and then would be a major cause celebre for certain sections of British political Islam. But that gets at something much, much deeper than this case - a genuine clash of civilizational outlooks which is likely to play out at many different levels over the course of rest of our lives. Multiculturalism/pluralism sometimes fails and this is an area where it is in serious trouble.
 
Diamond said:
I don't think there are any good answers to this one but, IMV, stripping her of her citizenship was not a good move and is not, very generally speaking, a good route forwards.

Ultimately, I think probably the best route forwards would be to make a show of repatriating all of our former IS fighters/sympathisers and then to put as many as possible on trial for treason in a very public way. Perhaps even consider implementing the death penalty or, at the very least, whole life tariffs.

That said, I do think the most likely outcome re: Begum is that she would be repatriated, would probably escape any harsh punishment (perhaps a handful of years in some relatively comfortable women's prison) and then would be a major cause celebre for certain sections of British political Islam. But that gets at something much, much deeper than this case - a genuine clash of civilizational outlooks which is likely to play out at many different levels over the course of rest of our lives. Multiculturalism/pluralism sometimes fails and this is an area where it is in serious trouble.
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The death penalty for treason was abolished yonks ago you silly sausage.
 
Spymaster said:
Well obviously I reject your characterisation as a lack of meaningful rights, and I've already said that culture, esp minority culture, is learned at home and in communities rather than in schools. A lot has been made of the government's failure to stop people joining such groups in the first place and many communities now have deradicalisation/anti-radicalisation programs like Prevent, in Tower Hamlets, which probably already outline the potential consequences of joining proscribed groups and if they don't, they should.

We're not going to agree on this. You think that any difference in what you see as rights is bad. Full stop. I think they are inevitable in a multicultural society and should be managed according to the risks they present in reality. Dual citizenship carries vanishingly minor disadvantages. Among them are the inability to avail oneself of the consular assistance of one nation whilst in the other, and the acceptance that the Home Secretary (or equivalent) of one of those states may remove your status if your presence is deemed to be inconducive to the public good (to wit - the joining of terrorist organisations, thus far). However, the advantages of dual citizenship are often so substantial that people like bimble go to great lengths to procure it and completely disregard the downsides. Your objection is that some people won't know about their dual citizenship, so I say let's tell them. Let's make them aware of the advantages and disadvantages they have. Let's face it, given the publicity around Begum, I'd be very surprised if there are any Bangladeshis in the country who aren't now aware of this.

Let's tell everyone else from all the other js nations like Ireland, Canada, Tunisia, Dominican Republic, Morocco, and many others to varying degrees. Give them and their parents the opportunity to decide which nationalities and rights they want to maintain.
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Not sure that personalising it this way is very helpful, especially since, if I remember correctly, you've fairly recently acquired dual nationality/citizenship yourself.

On the general point, I agree that dual nationality/citizenship is mostly an advantage rather than a disadvantage, and if individuals are concerned that holding it might put them at a disadvantage, they're mostly able to renounce it.

None of that really applies to the case this thread is ostensibly about though.
 
Dystopiary said:
The death penalty for treason was abolished yonks ago you silly sausage.
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No reason that you can't bring it back in - there will be issues of retrospectivity with any existing cases but you would just apply it prospectively, hoping never to have to use it.
 
ElizabethofYork said:
yuck.
But there's no evidence anywhere that she murdered anyone, is there?
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no.
If they're really desperate, come the next election (which is going to be a monstrosity of 'culture war' shit anyway because they have nothing else left) i really wouldn't be surprised to see 'bring back the death penalty' floated as a talking point.
 
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