Brexit - impact on musicians, touring and the music/events industry

[klang]

before the pandemic i used to see a mediocre drummer busking outside kings x, he was there on a reasonably regular basis.

 

[klang]

before the pandemic i used to see a mediocre drummer busking outside kings x, he was there on a reasonably regular basis. i have no doubt you'd be better than one drum man who used a couple of years back to 'busk' outside dalston kingsland, striking one bongo with one hand on, to be very kind, i'll call a syncopated beat

seriously though, fair play to them if they made a bit or a lot of money, but I'll pass for now

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

OK, as I said, I wouldn't know. What makes it light years ahead?

Not sure that's still the case, in fact the premise of this thread is what was no longer is

Not anymore of course. . . .
but certainly on the level of my band Europe was the place to go. Pay is far better, you are treated far better, and the set ups are more organised. You would have to be at a higher level of band to make a UK tour work for you in the same way an EU tour did.
Also generally for one offs like festivals you would have your flights, transport, stage plans etc all organised paid for and set up for you months before you set off. Usually put up in nice hotels and fed, and paid well.
No offence to UK promoters, but it's never personally come close on my level in my experience.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Also, scorn for busking, seriously?
When you're looking for solidarity?
Seriously?

Scorn for suggesting that busking is the answer for musicians that no longer tour the EU.
You really don't know what you are talking about. It makes your posts very irritating.

 

[pesh]

A long video, but worth it if you want some genuine insight into just how fucking ridiculous it's about to get for trucking companies.

Fuck. Brexit.

I knew things were fucked but i didn't realise they were that fucked. Amazing.

 

[editor]

Scorn for suggesting that busking is the answer for musicians that no longer tour the EU.
You really don't know what you are talking about. It makes your posts very irritating.

Seeing as the one of the very last things I want hear in the street is a solo drummer banging away, there's no way I'd want to inflict that on others.

Not every musician has the confidence, ability or opportunity to busk - and right now no one can busk anyway because of the covid laws.

 

[mojo pixy]

So because you were lucky enough to make money from busking, you assume that it would be the same for every other musician, regardless of what instrument they play, what style of music they play, where they live, and their ability (and confidence) to perform solo in the street?

I mean, I wasn't ''lucky'', I just had a good repertoire and yes, confidence to play it. No difference from the confidence needed to stand in front of a crowd indoors on a stage. What I am lucky to have, is transferable skills beyond music. I'm ''lucky'' to do shift-work because playing music for primary income is too insecure and the hourly rate works out even worse than an agency pays.

Let's not pretend that playing in a band for a living is all about the income. It's also about the feels, the rush of going onstage to a cheering crowd, the warmth of validation, the joy of being told by strangers how awesome you are, the glow of having an entire room full of people in the palm of your hand.

I feel a great deal of sympathy for classical musicians who literally have devoted their entire life to becoming a virtuoso. Likewise anyone who has invested a lot of themselves and their savings / earnings into building up a large rig that currently stands idle. I get it. I'm sorry to hear it. No but.

Not scorn for busking, scorn for the idea that it's somehow an alternative to touring for bands, which is a bonkers idea.

No, you're right. staying in and mithering about it online is definitely a better idea. On the other hand, Supermarket delivery drivers are at a premium, as are care staff as the EU non-resident staff have to leave. So busking not strictly necressary. A cheap shot. Sure, we can all make them

If you could tell me how you make money by selling music on the net I'd be very grateful.

I never said I make money online by selling music (though I do now and then).
But for a band with an audience it's really not that hard to sell music online. It's becoming pretty standard nowadays.

 

[Pickman's model]

I knew things were fucked but i didn't realise they were that fucked. Amazing.

wait till the wheels come off, then you'll see what fucked means

 

[mojo pixy]

Scorn for suggesting that busking is the answer for musicians that no longer tour the EU.
You really don't know what you are talking about. It makes your posts very irritating.

go on, own your feelings

 

[pesh]

wait till the wheels come off, then you'll see what fucked means

think the truck has to be in motion for the wheels to fall off.

 

[editor]

I mean, I wasn't ''lucky'', I just had a good repertoire and yes, confidence to play it. No difference from the confidence needed to stand in front of a crowd indoors on a stage.

But you understand that not every musician has the requisite skills/confidence/repertoire to provide a lucrative busking experience, yes? I certainly aren't capable of busking for a host of reasons.

And standing on a street corner on your own is very different to being onstage with your band - particularly for female/vulnerable performers who can attract all sorts of unwanted bother.

I never said I make money online by selling music (though I do now and then).
But for a band with an audience it's really not that hard to sell music online. It's becoming pretty standard nowadays.

How much money has your band made by selling music online? And do you think it's in any way comparable to selling vinyl/CDs/merch on tour?

 

[klang]

I never said I make money online by selling music (though I do now and then).
But for a band with an audience it's really not that hard to sell music online. It's becoming pretty standard nowadays.

grant.
How is this an alternative to touring in Europe then?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I knew things were fucked but i didn't realise they were that fucked. Amazing.

Depressing, isn’t it?

 

[editor]

grant.
How is this an alternative to touring in Europe then?

All of tours abroad are partly financed by merch sales. Online sales wouldn't get us a bus ticket to Grimsby and back.

 

[Pickman's model]

All of tours abroad are partly financed by merch sales. Online sales wouldn't get us a bus ticket to Grimsby and back.

sure you could raise £26 through online sales

 

[editor]

sure you could raise £26 through online sales

If you include all the band members, I doubt it. Barely anyone buys music online anymore. Merch is where the money is. Some bands finance their album recordings through it too.

 

[Pickman's model]

If you include all the band members, I doubt it. Barely anyone buys music online anymore. Merch is where the money is. Some bands finance their album recordings through it too.

or the luckier ones make butter ads to fund tours

 

[mojo pixy]

But you understand that not every musician has the requisite skills/confidence/repertoire to provide a lucrative busking experience, yes? I certainly aren't capable of busking for a host of reasons.

And standing on a street corner on your own is very different to being onstage with your band - particularly for female/vulnerable performers who can attract all sorts of unwanted bother.

Not all busking pitches are on a street corner. And not all venues are safe for vulnerable performers or punters. Not by a long, long way.

How much money has your band made by selling music online? And do you think it's in any way comparable to selling vinyl/CDs/merch on tour?

I have at times made enough to live off, but there's no time off, no sick pay and no way to know what will happen next week.

My point is, there are still ways to make money from music. Especially for artists who already have an audience. Having to pretend that European tours being off the cards for a few months is the end of the world just gives me a stomach ache.

Notwithstanding my sympathy for people who literally have no other way to make a living than by touring their music around Europe and nowhere else.

 

[rutabowa]

And from another angle, it now arguably makes tours of North America relatively more attractive (perhaps even more so soon once UK-US agreements get made) and for British bands, NA is where the real money is.

Sorry I just found this sentence particularly wtf ha. You need to have TONS of money to lose to if you are going to try and tour the USA. Europe used to be break-even possible, it was a hustle to do it (and no doubt most little bands weren't paying the proper tax etc so probably tax avoiding in the same way that busking is) but def possible without costing you anything and maybe having a bit of cash to bring back.

I agree it's not the main priority right now, as I said before the main thing that is fucking touring atm is covid, and I would welcome the establishing of a better within-UK circuit... but honestly your post was so full of misunderstanding of the situation that you might have to rethink it.

 

[mojo pixy]

Barely anyone buys music online anymore.

For posterity.

Merch is where the money is. Some bands finance their album recordings through it too.

Merch can also be posted.

 

[mojo pixy]

You need to have TONS of money to lose to if you are going to try and tour the USA. Europe used to be break-even possible, it was a hustle to do it (and no doubt most little bands weren't paying the proper tax etc so probably tax avoiding in the same way that busking is) but def possible without costing you anything and maybe having a bit of cash to bring back.

I agree it's not the main priority right now, as I said before the main thing that is fucking touring atm is covid, and I would welcome the establishing of a better within-UK circuit... but honestly your post was so full of misunderstanding of the situation that you might have to rethink it.

I disagree. I think the misunderstanding is not mine.

Additionally, I hinted that with US-UK trade deals still to be done, the relative expense in future of tours to NA may well fall.

 

[editor]

My point is, there are still ways to make money from music. Especially for artists who already have an audience. Having to pretend that European tours being off the cards for a few months is the end of the world just gives me a stomach ache.

I'm sure the larger, more successful bands will be able to ride this out, but you seem to be ignoring a whole strata of smaller bands for whom playing Europe is a vital part of their career, giving them the opportunity to play gigs, improve as performers, earn some money, sell merch, and build an audience.

And absolutely no one has said that not being able to tour Europe "is the end of the world."

 

[editor]

For posterity.



Merch can also be posted.

That's really not how it works. .

Without the gigs there would be barely any merch/vinyl sales. People only buy the t-shirt because they're at the gig and want something to remember it with, and the biggest sellers are the t-shirts that have been printed for that specific tour. They like to buy vinyl so the band can sign the albums.

But you wouldn't know that because you've never played Europe.

Oh and sending merch and albums though the post would add shitloads to the cost or reduce their profitably considerably.

 

[pesh]

I disagree. I think the misunderstanding is not mine.

Additionally, I hinted that with US-UK trade deals still to be done, the relative expense in future of tours to NA may well fall.

 

[editor]

And from another angle, it now arguably makes tours of North America relatively more attractive (perhaps even more so soon once UK-US agreements get made) and for British bands, NA is where the real money is.

Have you any idea of the costs of playing the US?

And they've just been made even more expensive as the visa costs have been ramped up.

 

[mojo pixy]

I'm sure the larger, more successful bands will be able to ride this out, but you seem to be ignoring a whole strata of smaller bands for whom playing Europe is a vital part of their career, giving them the opportunity to play gigs, improve as performers, earn some money, sell merch, and build an audience.

I'm not, I'm suggesting the "business model" might need a tweak.

That's really not how it works. .

Without the gigs there would be barely any merch/vinyl sales. People only buy the t-shirt because they're at the gig and want something to remember it with, and the biggest sellers are the t-shirts that have been printed for that specific tour. They like to buy vinyl so the band can sign the albums.

But you wouldn't know that because you've never played Europe.

lol snobbery now. great stuff.

I know how it works. People never buy band t-shirts anywhere but at gigs. Obviously!

 

[rutabowa]

Additionally, I hinted that with US-UK trade deals still to be done, the relative expense in future of tours to NA may well fall.

If the cost of flying a band and equipment over to the USA (and then hiring a van and driving all over) becomes less than getting a transit van over to France in a ferry, then I think something will have gone radically wrong with the whole world. Don't you think that just sounds ridiculous? And environmentally absolutely crazy too.

 

[editor]

I know how it works. People never buy band t-shirts anywhere but at gigs. Obviously!

That's not what I said, but I do know that without tours, bands would sell considerably less t-shirts and merch. It's not unusual for smaller bands to make far more money on t-shirt and merch sales than the gig fees.

And it's not about snobbery, it's about you insisting that you know better than musicians who have actually played Europe.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

the relative expense in future of tours to NA may well fall.

This is a fantasy.

 

[mojo pixy]

If the cost of flying a band and equipment over to the USA (and then hiring a van and driving all over) becomes less than getting a transit van over to France in a ferry, then I think something will have gone radically wrong with the whole world. Don't you think that just sounds ridiculous?

Frankly the whole world is fucking insane just now so I don't really discount anything.