Breadmaking

[mrs quoad]

Another UFO!

I assume that the seams on the bottom are weaker than the slashes on top (possibly bc the ovens too hot - 230?! That should be ok - so the crust is forming too quickly (but if that's the case, why isn't the baking stone setting the bottom even quicker?!); or there's not enough steam Which there should be, steam oven )

 

[bluescreen]

IANAB and just thinking from first principles, but do you think it's because there is more circulating heat coming from the top than from the bottom, which is to some extent protected from the circulating air by the stone? Although the stone is notionally the same temperature, the air from the oven will cool on reaching the dough, and be instantly renewed by the circulating air, whereas the stone and dough quickly reach an equilibrium. Perhaps some sort of paper collar might help?

Loving this thread, thanks.

 

[mrs quoad]

IANAB and just thinking from first principles, but do you think it's because there is more circulating heat coming from the top than from the bottom, which is to some extent protected from the circulating air by the stone? Although the stone is notionally the same temperature, the air from the oven will cool on reaching the dough, and be instantly renewed by the circulating air, whereas the stone and dough quickly reach an equilibrium. Perhaps some sort of paper collar might help?

Loving this thread, thanks.

Tbf, it should be the opposite. The point of the stone is to be a massive repository of stored heat. It's an inch-thick granite slab that spends an hour in the oven, entirely so that it can pound seriously hard levels of heat into the bread's arse for hours on end. (Well. Not hours. But.) Whereas the heating power of air is distinctly limp. As you point out, it keeps on going cold.

I guess what's weird is that both top and bottom are rising - perhaps because an all-round solid crust is forming too quickly, and that's meaning that when the middle rises, it drags the (reasonably crusty) edges up with it...?

I'm thinking deeper slashes might help - would certainly give more room to spill out.

Though the loaf in the fridge tonight is an 80% semolina. Which, looking at it, I think was overoptimistic. Not sure how slashable it'll be, and I'm expecting considerable spooge.

 

[mrs quoad]

Had a surfeit of starter so made a light rye and fennel.

This is a bit disingenuous, tbh. The recipe sez 30 mins at 230C, but the inner temp was only about 130F LOL. So have put it back in for another 20.

This was its half time pause. For half oranges. And whatever.

 

[mrs quoad]

Another UFO whopper. Had most of this avo to spooge.

 

[bluescreen]

Looks gorgeous. Tell us in due course what the crumb's like. If that's soft and good, can't see the problem really.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

That's looks awesome. Like the patterns.

 

[Stig]

Here's what I do and turn out a pretty good sourdough loaf every week.

1. Take starter out of fridge and allow to return to room temperature. It will start to bubble when it is ready.
2. Measure 500g of bread flour into a mixing bowl (my go-to brand is Dove's Farm, but sometimes I use Lidl's own brand and sometimes I mix in a little rye flour or smoked wholegrain flour)
3. Add 1.5 tsp of salt and mix
4. Add 60g of starter and 375g of water (sometimes a little less depending on humidity) and mix well.
5. Cover with clingfilm or place in a plastic bag and secure with a clip
6. Leave to prove overnight for about 18 hours
7. Remove from bowl onto floured service and stretch and fold over a few times (I fold both edges into the middle, and then in half again, if that makes sense)
8. Place in well floured basket, cover with tea towel and leave to rise for 2-3 hours.
9. Place a Le Creuset cast iron pot with lid in the oven turned up to its highest temperature and allow to heat up for 30 minutes
10. Place dough in pot and put the lid on, return to oven and switch temperature down slightly to about 220C
11. After about half an hour, remove the lid and switch the temperature down again. Let cook for another 20 minutes or so.

This method will give you a fantastic crust, and it's a pretty easy technique once you get the timings right. You will also get a nice open texture and a glossy, chewy crumb.

Thank you for posting this; it's EXACTLY what I've been looking for.

I've been nurturing a sourdough starter for nearly month, but then, having read how many days' work is typically involved in creating the actual bread, I put the thing in the fridge and went down the farmers market instead. your version looks so much more realistically do-able!

 

[mrs quoad]

Discovered our oven had broken down last night after getting a loaf started. So left it to prove in the fridge from about 8pm til just now.

It is ridiculously borderline. Struggling to hold onto its shape but, tbh, just about there. I didn't dare try it on a peel, as I was sure it would spooge; so, in a new move, attempted to drop it straight onto the baking stone (which is half a tonne of 250 degree granite) whilst it was sticking half out the oven.

No idea how this'll go. 30% wholemeal spelt, too, so hardly ideal for massive over-proofing :lol: Will see!

edit: ok, that has to be one of my top three loaves, ever. Held up, structurally, bewilderingly well. In no small part, I think, because it wasn't sloshed in on a peel. I am totally over-proofing again in future!

 

[UnderOpenSky]

How do you move it on. Literally just drop it of the board.

I had another go at a mostly rye loaf last night. I know that it's low in gluten, but was ridiculously sticky, even after being machine kneeded. Ended up spoon it in to a bread tin. Was meant to make two loads, but managed to fit 1.2kg in one. That's a rather dense loaf!

 

[mrs quoad]

How do you move it on. Literally just drop it of the board.

To my amazement, the oven shelf can actually hold a granite baking stone protruding ¾ out.

Then just invert banneton straight over it. Tremendous improvement over peel. Will probably ruin oven long term tho, lol.

I know that it's low in gluten, but was ridiculously sticky, even after being machine kneeded.

Literally no point kneading rye. Is there?!

 

[UnderOpenSky]

To my amazement, the oven shelf can actually hold a granite baking stone protruding ¾ out.

Then just invert banneton straight over it. Tremendous improvement over peel. Will probably ruin oven long term tho, lol.

Literally no point kneading rye. Is there?!

How on earth are you supposed to work with it? In the river cottage bread book he shows a free-standing loaf, but Im not quite sure how you achieve that without ending up with most of it on your hands. It wasn't even pure rye. I used about 30% strong brown to try and give me a fighting chance.

It did occur to me the other night I've still not done a pure white loaf, but did quite like the very strong white for the pizza base I did the other night. It rose so quick when I gave it a few mins before toppings, but have a pizza steel now, so shouldn't have to do that again...

Speak of which, can you remember the name of that epic pizza thread? There's a lot of thread titles with pizza in the name?

 

[mrs quoad]

Gotta admit, I'm banging out a lot of white ATM bc I have so much and trying to get It right is so damned fun. My favourite baker shocked me when he said that his eg rye einkorn and emmer loaves are 10% each, 70% white (!) But I now get the appeal. Flavour and structure.

Rye - I shape then proof in a bowl. If I can flip it out so that the seams bake upwards (will find a photo) that provides cracking vents. Not much point otherwise in slashing - not enough rise. And allows the rise in a bowl before freeform / self supporting baking.

 

[mrs quoad]

This is as described above. 2kg 100% rye, lightly floured and shaped into a ball w/ the seam of that ball underneath.

Then flopped into a proving basket, seam on top. As the loaf rises, the seam cracks.

The difficult bit is then flopping it (fully risen) onto your hand before flopping it onto the peel, to ensure the seam stays upright.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

I wish I'd taken more pictures, but honestly mine is like glue to work with. What kind.of hydration you using?

Intresting what you said about the baker. My most successful loaf was the one before and that was the sponge made from a 1/3 white, rye, brown and the remains 1/2 from white. Oh and shed load of seeds.

What temp do you bake at? I've been playing with a very hot oven to start and then turning down, but that seems to need a lot of accurate on just when to turn it down.

Also whilst I'm asking questions is there any issues with feeding starters and stopping stuff sticking with cheap plain white flour rather then my more experienced stuff? Not got round to go to a bakery yet to see if I can buy in bulk.

 

[Chz]

I don't think there's much point to rye percentages between 50 and 100%. It has so little effect that you may as well do 100%. My usual is 20 to 30% rye (much like the Polish stuff in shops). More than enough for flavour and it still works like a normal loaf.

 

[mrs quoad]

Some learning points today :lol:

Pulling it out the fridge at 06:00 and baking at 08:00 is not the same as leaving it in the fridge til midday. Vastly more spooge. The RHS spooge fell off the side of the baking stone (managed to lift it back on when half crusted, but there's a dimple / crease in its bottom, bless!)

The top also hooked itself under the oven shelf holder. So is crimped.

Following on from yesterday's triumph, I think I need to think about how I can allow loaves longer in the fridge.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Looks good still. What does putting it in the fridge do. Is it just to delay baking or is there other magic at work?

 

[mrs quoad]

What kind.of hydration you using?

I've attached my baker's recipe. I bake 100% rye so rarely that I've yet to deviate from this at all. (Except the timing. This is way under for big loaves, ime)

What temp do you bake at? I've been playing with a very hot oven to start and then turning down, but that seems to need a lot of accurate on just when to turn it down.

Have you got an oven thermometer? Could really help in IDing what temp you're actually baking at. Ours is pretty bloody awesome, and unbelievably more accurate than the last one (it also appears to claim that it has an internal thermometer, as it provides readings whilst warming up; these might be timed guesstimates tho - it seems to warm up pretty darned quickly w a large slab of granite in. And id def give it another half hour before actually putting bread on it). Even then, i read on mumsnet that it apparently varies by 10-15 degrees.

That said, I can pretty much guarantee the crust. On a well proved white 2kg (37-45mins), 220 = light. 230 = hovering. 235 = charred bits. 240 = blackened bitter crust.

All of which I like from time to time. And I feel properly lucky that we can get that degree of replicability!

YOMV tho, so don't take those too literally!

Also whilst I'm asking questions is there any issues with feeding starters and stopping stuff sticking with cheap plain white flour rather then my more experienced stuff? Not got round to go to a bakery yet to see if I can buy in bulk.

I'm sorta mindful that (200/360 errrr) 55% of my starter is flour. Which makes up about 16.5% of the flour in a 2kg loaf.

I am sketchier with my starter. And am considering eg feeding it using the lower-gluten Yorkshire organic I had around for ages (not so great for rises). And gluten content does appear to drop as yeast eats it. So I'm not sure how much it matters.

There's a part of me that also feels that if I'm going balls-out for results, I shouldn't skimp on the starter, though.

There are also claims floating around that starters get habituated - if you're feeding them one sort of flour, they can struggle to adjust to another. Or take a few days to do so. Not sure how much of an issue that'd be between wheats, but eg to / from rye is meant to cause some bellyaching. That might also impact on how it interacts with loaves but, tbh, so long as YOUR process remains the same, that shouldn't affect the replicability of what you're doing.

Stopping sticking? I'd always always always use white / light rye in banneton sand on surfaces, and semolina on peels. The former - it just doesn't stick. It doesn't get absorbed. It's very very different to plain white / wheat. The latter just gives a better slide bc of its granularity. And doesn't burn horrendously / bitterly / stinkily on a baking stone. (Not until about 270, at least). Again bc of the granularity. I think.

 

[mrs quoad]

Looks good still. What does putting it in the fridge do. Is it just to delay baking or is there other magic at work?

Firmer. Really! Cold dough maintains shape much better.

Same reason I gave up on my home made proofing cupboard. Kicks the ass off of proofing times, results in bread soup dribbling all over. And 4mm high, 3 foot wide loaves.

Edit: yesterday's loaf was probably 2-3cm higher and 5 or so cm less spooged. And equally - if not better - proofed.

Edit2: thrashes the hell outta proofing times tho. To repeat yesterday, I'd be looking at a 15hr fridge proof.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

See this is why I love asking question on the Internet.

It occurred to me that although I've baked a few loaves now (and luckily had no complete disasters) what I havnt done is try to work out a simple recipe to which I tweak graduated rather then experiment with every time and change loads.

I've got a thermometer, turns out my oven can be as much as 35 deg hotter then it says. It's helped my roasts as much as my bread making! Not actually used my new steel yet as the last loaf had to go in a tin.

Do other people make a "sponge" when do I sourdough? I'm sticking to in all the water and half the flour the night before so you end up with basically a giant starter to add the rest of the stuff to. It bubbles away like crazy by the next day and you don't seem to need much starter to get it going. I'm terrible to my starter, seems to get fed whatever is handy and anything left over from the bowl.

Liking the tips for flour for stopping sticking. Not actual got a basket yet or used my peel. Hoping this all help the bread get steadily better.

Also your loaves are huge. 2kg is a total beast.

 

[mrs quoad]

My starter IS a sponge. Used daily (every 2 days at outside), so no point separating them, thumbs.

Edit: id probably have a bit more precision with timings if I sponged it, but it's either fed the night before / morning of a bake, which appears to be ok. I should probably get stricter with this (timing or feed).

 

[mrs quoad]

I am going through a moderately disappointing phase of bread making. Repeatedly trying to get white loaves right, but repeatedly working within exactly the same time frame, and so repeatedly getting identical results. (I would like more time for final fridge proof).

A part of me knows this. It has yet to actually have any effect on what I do, though.

Which isn't very sensible.

 

[mrs quoad]

This morning's loaf:



And our (arguably excessive) bread board.



Organic strong white, raisin and (Chinese) walnut, and a 75% Yorkshire organic stoneground 86% white.

Tbf, I'll probably look to sell today's, if my German customer is in. And she'll probably be keen on half the raisin and Walnut, too. And I'll put out the strong white at work (and maybe some raisin and walnut, and a chunk of today's if colleague absent).

So I fully expect to be out of bread this evening.

 

[phillm]

Another UFO whopper. Had most of this avo to spooge.

View attachment 110647 View attachment 110648

coorr - what a loaf !

 

[friedaweed]

Can someone give me some tips on getting a good starter going?

 

[mrs quoad]

Can someone give me some tips on getting a good starter going?

a) ask someone else for some of theirs (this is the easiest and quickest route! And it really is pennies away from being free to the owner);
b) tbh, this looks like a pretty friendly link / process. Most of those that I've encountered work the same. The one linked states that yeast is already living in flour. Other processes I've seen have claimed that you need to capture your yeast from the air. All involve a 50/50 mix of flour and water. Most involve throwing half of it away each day, and topping up with a 50/50 mix of new flour and water. (Thereby getting rid of a proportion of the old food, and giving the remaining half a whole new bucket of food to feed on. Yeast grows fast at room temp. Mine'll comfortably colonise a new flour / water mix 9 or 10 times its size within a day. So the half that's thrown away really *is not* a loss.) Within 4 or 5 days at room temperature, it should be going pretty well. Week at the outside.

The only substantive difference (afaict) between the 'wild capture' and 'the yeast is already there' approaches is whether you leave your nascent starter in an open bowl and covered by a wet cloth; or in a sealed container.

 

[mrs quoad]

I see that I failed to attach my baker's rye recipe earlier.



UnderAnOpenSky

I note "sticky wet claylike" Which, tbh, I hadn't read for a while. (Proportions the important bit. What else is going to happen with rye, apart from mixing?!)

 

[Stig]

Can someone give me some tips on getting a good starter going?

I used this to create mine: worked a treat. https://www.theperfectloaf.com/7-easy-steps-making-incredible-sourdough-starter-scratch/

 

[Stig]

mrs quoad that is the easiest looking recipe I've ever seen in my, what, 5 weeks baking history. Is there a bit missing where you spend 18 hours slaving in front of a floury worktop?