Brazil vs Croatia (Group A) Thursday 12th June 2014

[littlebabyjesus]

(and the sending offs things is what I meant by inadvertently creating new problems. We'd go from a situation where refs occasionally give dodgy penalties to one where they occasionally give dodgy penalties AND occasionally send people off for nothing. This is not an advance)

I agree with this. I don't want the list of things you can be sent off for extended. There are already too many sendings off.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I know almost zero about ice hockey, but isn't hitting someone with your stick considered a very serious offence? .

Depends where, but generally, yes. But as with football, there are times that contact occurs between players that was unintended, but can still cause damage.

 

[Athos]

Fred's felt a hand on his shoulder and not resisted it, but he hasn't propelled himself to the floor, has he?

What did propel him to the floor, other than his own actions? Are you seriously suggesting that the minimal contact we saw was enough to send a grown man, and athlete no less, to the floor? Seriously? HAve you ever played, by the way?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

At the end of the day, doesn't it boil down to whether or not one thinks that a sports match should be decided by game play, or by other extraneous variables?

 

[Lo Siento.]

What did propel him to the floor, other than his own actions? Are you seriously suggesting that the minimal contact we saw was enough to send a grown man, and athlete no less, to the floor? Seriously? HAve you ever played, by the way?

A very small amount of force is necessary to push a grown man to the floor if that grown man doesn't resist the small amount of force, particularly if I'm leaning back and that small force is pushing me downwards.

I play for a Sunday League team and give away a lot more free kicks than I win.

 

[Fez909]

Is all diving deliberate? Fred's felt a hand on his shoulder and not resisted it, but he hasn't propelled himself to the floor, has he?

And if deliberate is the issue, then why not a straight red for everyone who deliberately ends a counter attack with a cynical foul? Or defenders that hold onto shirts at corners and set-pieces? and the other array of illegal things teams deliberately do to get a slight advantage?

The aim of what we're talking about isn't to encourage red cards, but to change behaviour. By increasing the seriousness or better policing diving you would reduce the amount it happens. Deliberate fouls are already a sending off offence if the player is in a goal scoring opportunity.

Like I said, this generation of footballers didn't invent cheating.

No, but they are the ones who have turned it into 2part of the game".

 

[Fez909]

A very small amount of force is necessary to push a grown man to the floor if that grown man doesn't resist the small amount of force, particularly if I'm leaning back and that small force is pushing me downwards.

I play for a Sunday League team and give away a lot more free kicks than I win.

Why wouldn't you resist the force if you were in the box, potentially in place to score?

 

[Lo Siento.]

The aim of what we're talking about isn't to encourage red cards, but to change behaviour. By increasing the seriousness or better policing diving you would reduce the amount it happens. Deliberate fouls are already a sending off offence if the player is in a goal scoring opportunity.

Yes, but there are still plenty of deliberate fouls which are not sending off offences.

No, but they are the ones who have turned it into 2part of the game".

Like their predecessors turned the early "reducer" into "part of the game".

 

[Athos]

A very small amount of force is necessary to push a grown man to the floor if that grown man doesn't resist the small amount of force, particularly if I'm leaning back and that small force is pushing me downwards.

I play for a Sunday League team and give away a lot more free kicks than I win.

I reckon you watch and play a different game to me, mate.

I'd be embarrassed to be Fred, or to defend what he did (or diving more generally).

This shit is ruining the game for me.

 

[Fez909]

Yes, but there are still plenty of deliberate fouls which are not sending off offences.


Like their predecessors turned the early "reducer" into "part of the game".

"But sir, he did it first" hasn't been a valid argument since junior school.

 

[Lo Siento.]

I reckon you watch and play a different game to me, mate.

I'd be embarrassed to be Fred, or to defend what he did (or diving more generally).

This shit is ruining the game for me.

Moralising nonsense. Of all the things that are ruining football, diving is the least of our bloody worries.

 

[Lo Siento.]

"But sir, he did it first" hasn't been a valid argument since junior school.

That's not the argument I'm making.

 

[Lo Siento.]

Why wouldn't you resist the force if you were in the box, potentially in place to score?

Why not? How about all the times defenders "just do enough to put a striker off" by physically impeding them as one reason.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Moralising nonsense. Of all the things that are ruining football, diving is the least of our bloody worries.

But god, it looks terrible.

Many of us here are fairly new to watching pro football; when one of these guys takes a dive, everyone in the room breaks out laughing, it looks so preposterous. For a minute, it stops being a game, and becomes a comedy.

 

[Fez909]

Why not? How about all the times defenders "just do enough to put a striker off" by physically impeding them as one reason.

It's not why not, it's why did he go down? You said earlier that the body's natural instinct is to go down under pressure, but I disagree massively with you again. I do everything I can not to fall over, sometimes to the point of making it worse when I do fall over.

I've never known anyone go down rather than try to stay up except in football. And these are strong, athletic men in their prime with a huge advantage to being on their feet (when in the box, for example). It's almost impossible to score from the floor.

So why do they go down? Why don't they try to stay up? Cheating.

 

[Lo Siento.]

But god, it looks terrible.

Many of us here are fairly new to watching pro football; when one of these guys takes a dive, everyone in the room breaks out laughing, it looks so preposterous. For a minute, it stops being a game, and becomes a comedy.

the whole game is preposterous. And easily the most preposterous thing about it is people like Athos who think the game's "integrity" is something worth defending.

 

[Fez909]

 

[Lo Siento.]

It's not why not, it's why did he go down? You said earlier that the body's natural instinct is to go down under pressure, but I disagree massively with you again. I do everything I can not to fall over, sometimes to the point of making it worse when I do fall over.

I've never known anyone go down rather than try to stay up except in football. And these are strong, athletic men in their prime with a huge advantage to being on their feet (when in the box, for example). It's almost impossible to score from the floor.

So why do they go down? Why don't they try to stay up? Cheating.

I gave you the reason. If I stay up, the defender's hand still impedes me, prevents me from playing the ball as I would've done if it weren't there. Technically that's a foul but I'll never get given it in a million years. If pressure is being applied, it doesn't take actively propelling myself to the floor for me to fall, so why should I push back and stay on my feet?

 

[Lo Siento.]

He's the one telling me I should be "embarrassed" because I don't think diving is a huge deal. That I'm playing and watching a different game. He's got no fucking clue how I conduct myself on a football field.

 

[Fez909]

He's the one telling me I should be "embarrassed" because I don't think diving is a huge deal. That I'm playing and watching a different game. He's got no fucking clue how I conduct myself on a football field.

You should be embarrassed because you're defending it.

 

[Lo Siento.]

You should be embarrassed because you're defending it.

Christ, get a sense of perspective.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

 

[Lo Siento.]

The great moral crusade of our age!

 

[Athos]

the whole game is preposterous. And easily the most preposterous thing about it is people like Athos who think the game's "integrity" is something worth defending.

It is. It's a sport. When it ceases to be sporting i.e. when it turns on cheating, it become meaningless. If winning has any value, it is lost if the win is achieved by cheating. It's great to say "we out-played them today", but if all you can say is that you out-cheated them, so what? That's my opinion, anyway. I know you have a different view: that the game is somehow enriched by cheating and bad refereeing. But as somone who loves football when it's played properly, I think the game has enough to entertain without these other aspects.

 

[Lo Siento.]

It is. It's a sport. When it ceases to be sporting i.e. when it turns on cheating, it become meaningless. If winning has any value, it is lost if the win is achieved by cheating. It's great to say "we out-played them today", but if all you can say is that you out-cheated them, so what? That's my opinion, anyway. I know you have a different view: that the game is somehow enriched by cheating and bad refereeing. But as somone who loves football when it's played properly, I think the game has enough to entertain without these other aspects.

I love football played properly or improperly, so it's your loss.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

the whole game is preposterous. And easily the most preposterous thing about it is people like Athos who think the game's "integrity" is something worth defending.

I've been to a few MLS games [Major League Soccer - sorry, that's what we call it]. Many of the players are from Europe, South America etc. Diving takes place, but imo it's less than what I see in the televised European matches. I think part of it might have to do with crowd acceptance. The fans here aren't very tolerant of diving. People in the stands will laugh when it happens.

 

[Pingu]

IMHO football has gone too far with allowing the cheating/diving/ref abuse to pull it back. Around the world its now accepted as "just all part of the game - Deal with it" and to change that attitude is akin to getting an oil tanker at full speed to suddenly change direction.

Its also the main reason why i hate football - its more about money and wealth generation than playing there is simply too much at stake financially for senior management within a team to get all heavy handed on players who audition for "man in pain until the whistle blows".

Sadly gamesmanship is now creeping into rugby too and for me the game is far worse for it.

 

[Athos]

I love football played properly or improperly, so it's your loss.

Yes, it is my loss. And the loss of all those who love the game, such that they would prefer to see matches decided by great play, not by effective cheating. And a loss to those kids who will grow up without ever knowing the sense of pride that comes from winning fair-and-square. And to sport more generally, as the acceptance of cheating creeps in: how long before you defend fielders who appeal for a catch that they know didn't carry? And, at the risk of sounding overly-dramatic, to wider society as the idea that I will do unto others as I'd like them to do to me - which is implicit in opposing teams' commitment to play a sport according to its rules - is eroded entirely, and we're left with 'me first, at any cost'.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes, it is my loss. And the loss of all those who love the game, such that they would prefer to see matches decided by great play, not by effective cheating. And a loss to those kids who will grow up without ever knowing the sense of pride that comes from winning fair-and-square. And to sport more generally, as the acceptance of cheating creeps in: how long before you defend fielders who appeal for a catch that they know didn't carry? And, at the risk of sounding overly-dramatic, to wider society as the idea that I will do unto others as I'd like them to do to me - which is implicit in opposing teams' commitment to play a sport according to its rules - is eroded entirely, and we're left with 'me first, at any cost'.

Yep. While I understand lo siento's cynicism, and skepticism about being anything other than cynical, I totally agree with this. I wish all sport were played fairly. Otherwise there's really not much point playing. And 'playing' is the word here. I hate it when a team I support benefits from gamesmanship.

 

[Lo Siento.]

Yes, it is my loss. And the loss of all those who love the game, such that they would prefer to see matches decided by great play, not by effective cheating. And a loss to those kids who will grow up without ever knowing the sense of pride that comes from winning fair-and-square. And to sport more generally, as the acceptance of cheating creeps in: how long before you defend fielders who appeal for a catch that they know didn't carry? And, at the risk of sounding overly-dramatic, to wider society as the idea that I will do unto others as I'd like them to do to me - which is implicit in opposing teams' commitment to play a sport according to its rules - is eroded entirely, and we're left with 'me first, at any cost'.

can you not hear yourself?

Won't somebody think of the small children! ?