Boris's ban on alcohol on London Transport (with poll)

[Crispy]

he mostly rides the bus, rich - you can watch the world go by from the bus.

The letters page in todays thelondonpaper had 5 letters about the booze ban. one was supportive, the others were critical. the 'star' letter was a particularly good one and listed all the sensible arguments from this thread about why the ban was a bad idea.

 

[ajdown]

Okay, it's now clear you don't actually use the tube. Most of it is "underground" and you can't watch the world go by.

Just two points.

1) The majority of the actual mileage of the "underground" actually isn't in a tunnel, but out in the open.

2) The ban is transport-wide in London, not just on the tube. The problem Boris is addressing happens on all modes of transport.

 

[lights.out.london]

Well the removal of private advertising from public space would be a start - that actually does have negative consequences on people.

Interesting idea.

Can you list some of the negative effects of advertising in public spaces on, erm, the public?

 

[Psychonaut]

'preparatory' drinking can, and will be accomplished by transferring your booze into a soft-drink container before you leave

Or simply being discrete with your can.

 

[rover07]

'preparatory' drinking can, and will be accomplished by transferring your booze into a soft-drink container before you leave

Thats what happens here in Brighton, a ban on drinking in public was introduced in some parts of town. But the street drinkers (who were the aim of the ban) just pour their drinks into pop bottles and carry on as before.

 

[ymu]

Just two points.

1) The majority of the actual mileage of the "underground" actually isn't in a tunnel, but out in the open.

It's close, 55:45. But the majority of journeys and by far the most miles travelled are entirely underground.

 

[smokedout]

i worked out some v rough stats from tfl's own figures on tubecrime

Crime on the Tube - Some Perspective

There are around 18,000 recorded crimes on the Tube Network each year with the vast majority being low level criminal damage such as graffiti.

Crimes which actually affect an individual run at around 13,000 a year with the bulk of these being pick-pocketing. Around 1 billion journeys are made on the tube every year.

Someone who makes 400 tube journeys a year would stand a 1 in 200 chance of being a victim of crime. To put that in perspective you would have to make 400 journeys a year for 200 years to statistically be likely to experience crime.

And that crime would be unlikely to be anymore serious than having your mobile pinched when you aren’t looking. Carrying out the same number of annual journeys you could expect to wait 6,250 years before you were robbed.

Aside from the 7/7 bombings, serious crimes such as murder, rape or serious violent assault are virtually unheard of on the tube.

In fact, statistically a tube carriage is probably safer than your own front room, but don’t worry it’ll only be a matter of time before they stop you having a drink there too.

For your own good you understand.

here

theres no evidence at all for this ban, its just boris spouting off to look like hes doing something

and im not gonna stop drinking on the tube

 

[Poi E]

Can you list some of the negative effects of advertising in public spaces on, erm, the public?

Persuading the public that any number of calorie, fat and sugar laden products are worthwhile to consume. Result? An epidemic of diabetes and obesity.

 

[teuchter]

I'm drinking a can of beer on a no.76 bus RIGHT NOW! Not only am i a menace to society, but an alcoholic! I'm not just posting this to pass the time - THIS IS A CRY FOR HELP!

 

[rich!]

I'm drinking a can of beer on a no.76 bus RIGHT NOW! Not only am i a menace to society, but an alcoholic! I'm not just posting this to pass the time - THIS IS A CRY FOR HELP!

Dialy 999y.

Really.

 

[scifisam]

i worked out some v rough stats from tfl's own figures on tubecrime



here

theres no evidence at all for this ban, its just boris spouting off to look like hes doing something

and im not gonna stop drinking on the tube

Good post.

I clicked on your link, too; one of your respondents thinks you're stupid for not realising that this isn't about making people actually safer, but making them feel safer, and that this is a worthwhile goal.

I reckon it's a weird world where people feel unsafe because of someone having a quiet can of lager on a bus. It's an even weirder world where that discomfort is worth spending huge amounts of money on rectifying.

 

[citydreams]

It's an even weirder world where that discomfort is worth spending huge amounts of money on rectifying.

There is no money being spent on this, afaik.

Boris hasn't had to spend a penny so far save for sticking up a few posters as The Media have done his work for him.

What is interesting as an observer is whether there will actually be a change in the by-laws to impose a fine for the offense.

I think this is unlikely as it would put Boris at odds with the unions.

In effect Boris is just spinning the existing laws, imo, rather than doing anything radical.

Quite cunning really.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

the thing which annoys me the most about this is it's totally fictious reasoning. we need to stamp out minor crimes in order to tackle major ones...

good idea to start at the bottom boris but until you introduced legislation this isn't any crime at all period so it's not stamping on crime it's stamping on the rights people have already in order to do fuck all of consiquence...

 

[scifisam]

There is no money being spent on this, afaik.

Boris hasn't had to spend a penny so far save for sticking up a few posters as The Media have done his work for him.

What is interesting as an observer is whether there will actually be a change in the by-laws to impose a fine for the offense.

I think this is unlikely as it would put Boris at odds with the unions.

In effect Boris is just spinning the existing laws, imo, rather than doing anything radical.

Quite cunning really.

The extra cops will cost rather a lot of money.

So would the knife arches and hand-held search thingummies, but they're blatantly never going to happen.

Apparently there will be a change in the by-laws, but it won't come into effect until next year, so for now it's just big talk. He has actually changed the laws - the existing laws do not prohibit drinking alcohol on the tube, so making it prohibited is a pretty big change.

 

[DotCommunist]

when did 'metal detectors' become 'knife arches'


is this newspeak to try and distract from the inconvenience and time these will cause to non knife wielding metal-object carrying punters?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Or simply being discrete with your can.

Something like this perhaps?

 

[citydreams]

Apparently there will be a change in the by-laws

You're quoting a newspaper aren't you? Word of mouth says that Boris has already got what he wants on the drink ban and will let it rest there.

He originally thought he needed a change in the laws, for which TfL advised him it would take a year or so. He since managed to find a way to attach it to the conditions of carriage using existing legislation but, afaik, no power to fine.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

You're quoting a newspaper aren't you? Word of mouth says that Boris has already got what he wants on the drink ban and will let it rest there.

He originally thought he needed a change in the laws, for which TfL advised him it would take a year or so. He since managed to find a way to attach it to the conditions of carriage using existing legislation but, afaik, no power to fine.

I've already been refused entry to a bus by the driver taking a dislike to my can of beer (once when it wasn't even opened). So regardless of legislation or conditions of carriage, the buses have pretty much been able to do this kind of thing anyway.

What i can't understand at all is how this will work on the tube? Will other passengers be advised to pull the emergency cord to report the offending ale consumer?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Something like this perhaps?

Thats a good pic of me as I shall be when I visit the next U75 drinks due to my support of Boris

 

[ajdown]

I've already been refused entry to a bus by the driver taking a dislike to my can of beer (once when it wasn't even opened). So regardless of legislation or conditions of carriage, the buses have pretty much been able to do this kind of thing anyway.

My guess is that, for many of the drivers who have suffered abuse from, or had trouble with, people drinking alcohol on the bus who have already had more than enough, they get a 'zero tolerance' towards people who might only be on their first one of the day or even just carrying a can.

I would have thought that the driver themselves really have sole control over who can and can't travel on the bus at that particular time, seeing how some let people on without a ticket and don't care, and others refuse to move until they get off.

As with most jobs like that, there's a lot of 'making decisions on your own initiative based on the circumstances'. Sometimes they'll get it wrong or err on the side of caution unnecessarily... but I'm sure we all do.

 

[Mitre10]

Can't help but think a lot of the talk on this thread is more to do with a dislike of Boris than whether or not you can have a can on the tube.

I have enjoyed a refreshing beverage before now but it was a bit of a shock to me when I moved to London from Newcastle where its been banned on the Metro system for years.

Anyway, in other news, Boris has got a deal sorted with First Great Western so we can use Oyster on their overground and states he will speak to the other train companies about their policy before the summer.

Good lad Boris, this is the sort of fucking common sense stuff that should have been in place for years. More of the same please.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7395741.stm

 

[scifisam]

Can't help but think a lot of the talk on this thread is more to do with a dislike of Boris than whether or not you can have a can on the tube.

I have enjoyed a refreshing beverage before now but it was a bit of a shock to me when I moved to London from Newcastle where its been banned on the Metro system for years.

Anyway, in other news, Boris has got a deal sorted with First Great Western so we can use Oyster on their overground and states he will speak to the other train companies about their policy before the summer.

Good lad Boris, this is the sort of fucking common sense stuff that should have been in place for years. More of the same please.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7395741.stm

Ah, so Boris did that within a couple of days, sure. Nothing to do with previous negotiations and the fact that this was already about to happen anyway. FFS.

 

[Mitre10]

Ah, so Boris did that within a couple of days, sure. Nothing to do with previous negotiations and the fact that this was already about to happen anyway. FFS.

Haha, thought that would wind some people up!!

In all seriousness though, as long as he does keep holding talks with the others and gets them onboard too I will be happy. It is fucking ridiculous that I have to buy a separate ticket to get from Waterloo to Clapham Junction at the moment (make this journey sporadically once or twice a week as work disctates so not worth a pay monthly etc).

 

[Badgers]

My plan works as follows:

1. Buy can of Stella
2. Drink all of Stella
3. Top can up with fizzy pop
4. Drink fizzy pop on tube and wait for the arrest

WIN ^ ^

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

My guess is that, for many of the drivers who have suffered abuse from, or had trouble with, people drinking alcohol on the bus who have already had more than enough, they get a 'zero tolerance' towards people who might only be on their first one of the day or even just carrying a can.

I would have thought that the driver themselves really have sole control over who can and can't travel on the bus at that particular time, seeing how some let people on without a ticket and don't care, and others refuse to move until they get off.

As with most jobs like that, there's a lot of 'making decisions on your own initiative based on the circumstances'. Sometimes they'll get it wrong or err on the side of caution unnecessarily... but I'm sure we all do.

That me be one aspect of it but i think a far bigger reason is the fact that many bus drivers have to clean up the shit and mess left on their buses now from what i understand.

Its why i'm happy to drink on the bus but always take my rubbish with me and stick it in a bin.

 

[ajdown]

That me be one aspect of it but i think a far bigger reason is the fact that many bus drivers have to clean up the shit and mess left on their buses now from what i understand.

Its why i'm happy to drink on the bus but always take my rubbish with me and stick it in a bin.

Ive been on several buses that have had to be taken out of service because some drunk git has thrown up over a couple of seats.

Good for you for taking your rubbish with you ... but few do.

 

[scifisam]

Haha, thought that would wind some people up!!

In all seriousness though, as long as he does keep holding talks with the others and gets them onboard too I will be happy. It is fucking ridiculous that I have to buy a separate ticket to get from Waterloo to Clapham Junction at the moment (make this journey sporadically once or twice a week as work disctates so not worth a pay monthly etc).

Got to agree about that - it makes no sense. Bloody train companies holding out for so long, because they make more money out of it - especially out of the fines from people who thought they could travel by Oyster.

To be fair, unless it's something that is specifically Boris (like this drinking ban), I'm not going to credit or blame him for anything in the next month or so, because things don't happen that quickly. Same with the next Mayor after Boris.

@aj: you must the WORST LUCK IN THE WORLD when it comes to buses! Have you ever considered cycling?

Seriously, though, nobody disputes that drunks are sometimes a problem. The dispute is over whether those drunks are drunk because they had a tinny on the tube.

 

[ajdown]

@aj: you must the WORST LUCK IN THE WORLD when it comes to buses! Have you ever considered cycling?

I couldn't, not in London.

I'm not selfish, I couldn't jump red lights, I couldn't weave in and out of slow moving traffic dangerously, and I certainly couldn't travel in packs of 3 or 4 blocking the bus lane.

I'd either ban cycling totally, or make people have insurance/take a test to be legal, and put policemen randomly at traffic lights to fine those who cycle dangerously.

Most of 'em have total contempt for those in cars too - probably because they can't afford to run a car or get a bus pass. Perhaps it's time to get a job instead of full time 'activism'?

 

[lighterthief]

I couldn't, not in London.

I'm not selfish, I couldn't jump red lights, I couldn't weave in and out of slow moving traffic dangerously, and I certainly couldn't travel in packs of 3 or 4 blocking the bus lane.

I'd either ban cycling totally, or make people have insurance/take a test to be legal, and put policemen randomly at traffic lights to fine those who cycle dangerously.

Most of 'em have total contempt for those in cars too - probably because they can't afford to run a car or get a bus pass. Perhaps it's time to get a job instead of full time 'activism'?

Yawn, 1/10 etc.

 

[pk]

I couldn't, not in London.

I'm not selfish, I couldn't jump red lights, I couldn't weave in and out of slow moving traffic dangerously, and I certainly couldn't travel in packs of 3 or 4 blocking the bus lane.

I'd either ban cycling totally, or make people have insurance/take a test to be legal, and put policemen randomly at traffic lights to fine those who cycle dangerously.

Most of 'em have total contempt for those in cars too - probably because they can't afford to run a car or get a bus pass. Perhaps it's time to get a job instead of full time 'activism'?

We dont pay road tax and we're often quicker than cars across town.
I can afford to run cars, I just prefer freewheeling past queues of traffic watching fat and unfit drivers get vexed...