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Boris's ban on alcohol on London Transport (with poll)

What do you think of Boris's proposed ban on drinking on public transport?


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I'm a member of the public. Therefore I own the transit system and I'll do as I wish on it because it's mine (as long as I'm not harming anyone else, which is not a right gifted to me in any circumstances other than self/other defence).

There are two problems here.

Firstly, in as much as you might reasonably argue that you "own" the transport system, you do not own it exclusively. You have a share in it. A very, very small share.

Secondly, this tiny share does not give you the exclusive right to set the policy for use of the system. That right is delegated to the management and ultimately to the mayor, who you'll be pleased to know is democratically elected.

The judgement about whether your actions are acceptable (or as you put it, "harming others") are not ultimately for you to make. I doubt you would accept the right of others to act as they pleased as long as they were happy others weren't negatively affected, would you?
 
The judgement about whether your actions are acceptable (or as you put it, "harming others") are not ultimately for you to make. I doubt you would accept the right of others to act as they pleased as long as they were happy others weren't negatively affected, would you?

That would depend on whether they were right or not about the negative effects on others. If they were morally and intellectually competent I'd be happy to let them do as they please.

Much happier than I would be to accept Boris Johnson's decision that drinking an alcoholic beverage on the Tube leads to a creeping voodoo-esque malevolence and must be banned.
 
Why?

Something big changed with my job recently. I do not like it. As there is nothing I can do to change the job, my only option is to seek employment elsewhere, which I am actively doing.

Why is it essential services like the tube go on strike? Because they know they have the fear of mass disruption on their side, and people give in. Yet other jobs don't. It's known that McDonalds pay badly and the conditions are generally crap, but when did you last hear burger flippers going on strike? They either put up with it, or leave, or get booted.
Wow. My conditions are shit and I can't be arsed to challenge it, so noone else should be able to either. We can always find another job with an employer we won't challenge and who can get away with exactly the same crap because it's not being challenged.

McDonald's workers are not allowed to unionise. Doesn't mean there is no organisation amongst McDonald's workers.

There's also a reason why employers ban unions. Can you guess what it is?
 
It's not the conditions as such, it's just bad management decisions made by people higher up the food chain that I can do nothing about.
 
It's not the conditions as such, it's just bad management decisions made by people higher up the food chain that I can do nothing about.
I've left 3 jobs for identical reasons. I've never felt the need to argue against unions as a result. :confused:
 
You may or may not be right. What I think he's doing, is following in Giuliani's footsteps, with a 'broken windows' policy.

Giuliani said that the way to start back toward public order, is to sweat the small stuff. The analogy is that if you leave a bunch of broken windows in buildings on streets, it creates a lowered sense of pride, a lower desire to keep things orderly, etc. So you start by mending the windows. He also cracked down smaller offences. It apparently helped to turn around the disorder of New York.

...

By working to change those subtle perceptions, you create a higher expectation of decorum from the average person on the street.

I'm going to pick up on this as I mentioned it much earlier in the thread. Broken windows theory (hereafter BWT) is both controversial and often misunderstood.

The origin of the theory comes from the sociologists Wilson and Kelling. They observed that if an abandoned building had a broken window, before long all the other windows were broken. This observation was confirmed by an experiment where they left a car parked on the street and kicked out one of the headlights. Soon enough, people caused more damage and before long the whole car was stripped.

From this comes the idea that one has to mend the broken windows to avoid much worse trouble. As you say, "sweat the small stuff".

Where there is controversy is whether dealing with low-level problems simply inhibits further low-level problems and/or whether it inhibits greater ones.

The answer, as often, is "it depends". One example is the New York crackdown on fare evasion on the subway. This apparently had a measurable and positive effect on other kinds of crime, including violent crime. Fare dodgers were often committing other crimes (carrying drugs and weapons, for example). The presence of enforcement officers ostensibly to collect fares inhibited criminals and gang members from using the subway network to facilitate other kinds of crimes.

I'm not wholly convinced that BTW policies ("zero tolerance") can have a sustained impact on serious crime without committing huge extra resources to enforcement.

The other element to the policy is the maintenance of "order". It's important to note that order is not simply the absence of crime. An ordered society (or place) is one that is perceived as being safe, comfortable, predictable and consistent. I appreciate that for many people an extreme of this kind of order is the antithesis of urban life. It's about getting the balance right.

Things are constantly in flux. An ordered society is one that not only minimises crime, but also maximises comfort by creating an atmosphere where there is little fear of crime. A theme to which I return often (including earlier on this thread) is that there are many people in society who are not as self-possessed as perhaps the average U75 reader. These people are inhibited from going to certain places at certain times because they fear (rightly or wrongly) that the disorder they have observed could easily become a crime in which they are a victim. If we fail to deal with these people's anxiety (and I'm not talking about people with pathological anxiety, of course) then we are perpetuating an insidious form of social exclusion.

Therefore, the establishment of order becomes a priority in law enforcement and civic management. Putting order first says that it's not good enough just to minimise crime. You must encourage civility, courtesy and consideration. It is about making public space not just somewhere where people are happy to take a calculated risk that they won't be a victim of crime but somewhere where they're actually motivated to occupy. It is necessary to have a debate about which things are acceptable in public and which aren't; that's what's happening here. But that debate needs to start from the presumption that not breaking the law or not doing what many would consider to be "harming others" isn't enough.
 
That would depend on whether they were right or not about the negative effects on others. If they were morally and intellectually competent I'd be happy to let them do as they please.

And what if those people doing as they pleased affected you negatively, despite them being ostensibly "morally and intellectually competent"?

Much happier than I would be to accept Boris Johnson's decision that drinking an alcoholic beverage on the Tube leads to a creeping voodoo-esque malevolence and must be banned.

I'm sure you understand that this is part of a set of ideas about the kind of public space culture we have and the drinks ban won't be the last measure towards advancing those ideas. I'm sure (at least, I sincerely hope) that there will be much more to it than just banning a whole raft of undesirable things.
 
And what if those people doing as they pleased affected you negatively, despite them being ostensibly "morally and intellectually competent"?

You need to look at the word 'ostensibly' in that sentence. :p

I'm sure you understand that this is part of a set of ideas about the kind of public space culture we have and the drinks ban won't be the last measure towards advancing those ideas. I'm sure (at least, I sincerely hope) that there will be much more to it than just banning a whole raft of undesirable things.

Well the removal of private advertising from public space would be a start - that actually does have negative consequences on people. :)
 
God yeah, I used to hate the constant shouty ads at eye-level everywhere you go. It means if you don't want to be distracted by them you have to either bring a book or sit with your eyes closed.

But I guess there's a profit in it, so it will never be brought up.
 
And a great deal of advertising is expressly designed to make you feel bad - so that you can then fill that empty space with whatever product they are flogging.
 
Well the removal of private advertising from public space would be a start - that actually does have negative consequences on people. :)
Sounds like a good idea to me. I don't need advertising, I have Google if I want to look for something.
 
You need to look at the word 'ostensibly' in that sentence. :p

What I'm alluding to is that people have different standards.

Well the removal of private advertising from public space would be a start - that actually does have negative consequences on people. :)

I agree entirely. One thing this country really needs is a campaign that stands up and says let's get rid of the lot. The city isn't your shopfront.
 
God, I only say this on the news last night and already there there are over a thousands posts on this thread...

I cannot possibly think what is wrong with having a can of drink on the tube after a hard days work.

I've done it a number of times on the train from Stratford.

Is this is a respectable class thing? I was on a train from Liverpool street to north Essex a number of months ago. Drinking a can of Stella, it was obviously not to the liking of the rather better dressed and more "respectable" other commuters...



I had some lagers on the train to London a few weeks ago, on the table which was also strewn with legal papers for the case conference i was at. The guy opposite asked why someone like me was drinking. I genuinely didn't know wtf he was on about, in retrospect he probably meant someone with a tie on and a responsible job? It was a parting comment as he stood to leave so I couldn't really go into it with him.

PS that Branson can't be making much on Carlsberg at only £2.90 a can.... :hmm:
 
What I'm alluding to is that people have different standards.

They may have different 'standards' but if they are so deluded that they believe someone drinking a can of ale on the tube is 'harming' them then they probably shouldn't be allowed out on public transport unsupervised.

I agree entirely. One thing this country really needs is a campaign that stands up and says let's get rid of the lot. The city isn't your shopfront.

Dangerous consensus spotted off starboard bough - kill it! :eek:
 
An issue that causes an outburst of agreement.:)

Dangerous consensus spotted off starboard bough - kill it! :eek:

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They may have different 'standards' but if they are so deluded that they believe someone drinking a can of ale on the tube is 'harming' them then they probably shouldn't be allowed out on public transport unsupervised.

The same thing could easily be said about those who don't think there's anything wrong with drinking alcohol on public transport.

Whenever I've seen people drinking alcohol on a bus, the seat next to them is almost always empty, and most people would rather stand than take that seat.

There might not be anything considered "wrong" about drinking alcohol in a place such as on the bus or tube ... but it still generates a certain 'atmosphere' around the person that is partaking.
 
The same thing could easily be said about those who don't think there's anything wrong with drinking alcohol on public transport.

Whenever I've seen people drinking alcohol on a bus, the seat next to them is almost always empty, and most people would rather stand than take that seat.

There might not be anything considered "wrong" about drinking alcohol in a place such as on the bus or tube ... but it still generates a certain 'atmosphere' around the person that is partaking.

This is a job for the Department of Urban Research.

Find a scruffy chap.

First, have him drink water from a bottle over the course of five or six stops at a reasonably busy period and see how other people react to him (occupying adjacent seats, etc.)

Then substitute the water bottle for a beer can (containing water, of course). Just because we're doing science doesn't give us an excuse to partake.

Forward the results to the group and if appropriate, the mayor.
 
This is a job for the Department of Urban Research.

Find a scruffy chap.

First, have him drink water from a bottle over the course of five or six stops at a reasonably busy period and see how other people react to him (occupying adjacent seats, etc.)

Then substitute the water bottle for a beer can (containing water, of course). Just because we're doing science doesn't give us an excuse to partake.

Forward the results to the group and if appropriate, the mayor.

Next, start with 'scruffy' chap (old-fashioned crusty type), then 'smarten' him up.

Compare results, and send on to mayor in case he wishes to ban crusties from public transport.

ETA: If you travel on National Express, it is striking how often it will happen that where the majority of passengers are white, the very last seat to be occupied will be one next to a black man. You appear to be suggesting that public policy should reflect widely held prejudices - who decides which prejudice is ok and which is not?
 
Next, start with 'scruffy' chap (old-fashioned crusty type), then 'smarten' him up.

Compare results, and send on to mayor in case he wishes to ban crusties from public transport.

Oh, we should just do that anyway.

What would be the downside? None that I can see.

Stop them moving around and infecting others with their filthy ideas.
 
i saw a wonderful seen on the train the other day, a man and a woman who had been strangers before the journey in in depth philosophical conversation about their relationships etc, just chatting with no flirting undertones or anything, no swapping of phone numbers they just got off at their stops and that was that... and the guy was drinking a can of White Ace cider or something! i don't know why but i loved that.
 
Why?

Something big changed with my job recently. I do not like it. As there is nothing I can do to change the job, my only option is to seek employment elsewhere, which I am actively doing.

Why is it essential services like the tube go on strike? Because they know they have the fear of mass disruption on their side, and people give in. Yet other jobs don't. It's known that McDonalds pay badly and the conditions are generally crap, but when did you last hear burger flippers going on strike? They either put up with it, or leave, or get booted.

so your arguing for less rights of employment not more...

yes that's a sane option after all we all know how big business has the welafare of the workers at heart don't we.

I mean they have never put profit before welafare it's unthinkable.

simple fact of the matter is that any decent business should welcome union advice and help in order to ensure that they are deleviering their obligations and undertaking the duty of care they have under law for their staff... this comes in many guises if they chose to acknoledge that then they wouldn't need to be any form of action taken against the company and it wouldn't lose profits as a result.
 
There is no union rep. There is no union representation of any kind. I see no point in attracting trouble for myself by trying to start up something that I feel totally unnecessary, and I'd much rather just find somewhere else to work. I don't even think anyone else would be interested in joining anyway.

It's not as though I'm tied to London either, and in all honesty I'd rather be somewhere friendlier, greener, quieter and cheaper.

i'm alright jack pull the ladder up....

who let this twat in the front door really...
 
... which is, as has already been pointed out various times, not essential.

There's a lot of things that I 'could' do on the way home, to save time ... but they'd infringe on the space or rights of others (whether legal rights or just something people feel they can have) so I console myself with relaxing by looking out of the window at the world going by.

I might notice a new shop that looks interesting, or have a chuckle watching a woman in silly shoes trying to run for a bus, or someone riding a really cool looking bike, or whatever. Perfectly relaxing, and alcohol free.

The concept of 'unable to relax without alcohol' makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Okay, it's now clear you don't actually use the tube. Most of it is "underground" and you can't watch the world go by.

Personally, I frequently leave work shortly before the last tube, having done 10-12 hours hard work. I like to relax my noggin with an ale while not thinking on the tube home, then possibly catch last orders at the local (Victoria line early closing, before you ask).

Why oh why should I be prevented from doing this?
 
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