Boris's ban on alcohol on London Transport (with poll)

[Divisive Cotton]

God, I only say this on the news last night and already there there are over a thousands posts on this thread...

I cannot possibly think what is wrong with having a can of drink on the tube after a hard days work.

I've done it a number of times on the train from Stratford.

Is this is a respectable class thing? I was on a train from Liverpool street to north Essex a number of months ago. Drinking a can of Stella, it was obviously not to the liking of the rather better dressed and more "respectable" other commuters...

 

[STFC]

Drinking a can of Stella, it was obviously not to the liking of the rather better dressed and more "respectable" other commuters...

Had you forgotten to put your trousers on? I hate it when that happens.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

No they were just better dressed - I have no style

 

[Kid_Eternity]

It seems this 'policy' might have legs given the emotionalist way its working.

I've spoken to three people today who didn't think about the conflation of being drunk and drinking until I pointed it out. They thought (or should that be felt?) that by banning drinking on tube and buses you'd have less drunks about (even though none of them could give examples of bad experiences of drunken people on public transport). To them it made sense in a kinda non-logical logic way...

 

[scifisam]

Indeed.

Urban75 is the hard stuff. Once you get sucked in, it's very hard to find your way out again.

That was very good.

The majority of ones that I've noticed, yes. I know this because I've seen it.

That would still leave lots of people you don't notice drinking because they don't leave their cans behind.

 

[editor]

Handy for anyone who hasn't picked one up before getting on the train. Beer cans don't make for great reading.

Free newspapers that have been blown all over the tube with pages sent asunder generally don't make for a good reading experience.

But you'll generally find far more discarded soft drink/water bottles lolling around the carriages than beer cans, so I'm sure there's a valid point in here somewhere.

 

[untethered]

I think we should take a radical new approach to overcrowding and anti-social behaviour on the Tube.

Ban everyone under 30.

 

[ajdown]

I mainly see free london papers littered on the tube not beer cans

Because all the cans are hidden under the discarded newspapers?

 

[ajdown]

I think we should take a radical new approach to overcrowding and anti-social behaviour on the Tube.

Ban everyone under 30.

Logan's Run in reverse?

 

[jayeola]

Ban!

• hoodies
• trackies
• walkmans & other music player
• tinny r'n'b on mobile phones
• tattoos
• beards
• all drinks
• children

 

[scifisam]

Logan's Run in reverse?

Logan's Shuffle-Slowly-Behind-A-Walking-Frame.

 

[ajdown]

I just thought of one thing.

Banning alcohol on the tube was one of Boris's 'manifesto pledges'.

It is reasonable to assume that most people who voted for Boris were aware of this pledge.

Consequently, if this plan was voted in as part of a democratic process, with the largest % of Londoners essentially saying 'yes' to this plan ... what's the problem?

It's what people want.

 

[ymu]

I just thought of one thing.

Banning alcohol on the tube was one of Boris's 'manifesto pledges'.

It is reasonable to assume that most people who voted for Boris were aware of this pledge.

Consequently, if this plan was voted in as part of a democratic process, with the largest % of Londoners essentially saying 'yes' to this plan ... what's the problem?

It's what people want.

So was making a no-strike deal with the tube unions. He didn't consult them on that one either.

The Register report is much funnier than the BBC one I posted earlier (identical Bob Crow quote in both):

The Rail Maritime and Transport Union, though, has expressed doubts over the cunning plan to restore order in the capital. Its leader Bob Crow said: "We are in favour of any measure that will make our members' lives safer and curb anti-social behaviour, but it appears that this really hasn't been thought through very well and could well make matters worse. We are being told that it will be our members who will have to approach people drinking and ask them to stop - but the mayor hasn't asked us what we think.

Crow brilliantly concluded: "Perhaps the mayor will come out with his underpants on over his trousers like Superman one Saturday to show us how it should be done, and maybe tell a crowd of Liverpool supporters that they can't drink on the train."

We at El Reg have spotted another, non-Scouse-based flaw in the Johnson scheme to wrest control of the transport infrastructure from legless ne'er-do-wells: the London commuting experience is now so near absolutely intolerable that only Chuck Norris would consider chancing a rush-hour trip on the Northern Line without some form of mind-numbing beverage on hand.

Our advice to Johnson? Try tackling the "serious crime" of charging long-suffering passengers three quid to travel 200 yards packed like veal calves en route to a French slaughterhouse. Prosecution rests.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/07/lt_booze_ban/

 

[8ball]

It is reasonable to assume that most people who voted for Boris were aware of this pledge.

You think?

 

[spanglechick]

It seems this 'policy' might have legs given the emotionalist way its working.

I've spoken to three people today who didn't think about the conflation of being drunk and drinking until I pointed it out. They thought (or should that be felt?) that by banning drinking on tube and buses you'd have less drunks about (even though none of them could give examples of bad experiences of drunken people on public transport). To them it made sense in a kinda non-logical logic way...

and thisisexactly themindset that voted for boris in droves.

forget the nutters like kbj - the burbs are packed with people who read outrage in the paper and think 'something must be done', regardless of whether it's a real problem or a sensible solution.

I'd put good money on at least half of boris's voters not travelling by tube (or bus) on anything like a regular basis.

 

[ajdown]

You think?

If not then they only have themselves to blame. It's foolish to vote based purely on party, rather than policies and promises (although it's accepted that promises mean nothing in politics).

As for the tube unions ... essential public services should not be privately operated, nor unions involved. There is a job to be done, and if you don't like the conditions you're free to find another job.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

and thisisexactly themindset that voted for boris in droves.

forget the nutters like kbj - the burbs are packed with people who read outrage in the paper and think 'something must be done', regardless of whether it's a real problem or a sensible solution.

I'd put good money on at least half of boris's voters not travelling by tube (or bus) on anything like a regular basis.

Heh.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Boris butts in

"No more alcohol on tubes or buses": this was the very first Johnsonian edict to be issued from the eighth floor of City Hall and, as such, has special significance. Our new mayor has started as he means to go on - squaring up to the binge-drinking yobs of popular imagination.
It plays well, no doubt, in the heartlands. There's nothing more irritating to a Tory than a representative of the great unwashed swilling beer from a can in full public view. Johnson is nailing his colours to the mast as someone who will take a stand on behalf of good manners and decency.

But I'm confused. Because, when I went to see the candidates speak at a hustings organised by Stonewall, I remember Boris saying he was in favour of liberty. In fact, as Dave Hill helpfully reminds us, his exact words were: "I have always been in favour of liberty and I've always been in favour of freedom. What I don't like is the state butting in and telling people how to live their lives."

Ah, words. Annoying, isn't it, the way come back to haunt you? Johnson is perhaps the foremost British exponent of saying and writing things that get him into trouble later, but there's a difference between a gaffe and a fundamental intellectual inconsistency.

 

[Oswaldtwistle]

there's a difference between a gaffe and a fundamental intellectual inconsistency.

That is a fundamental contradiction at the heart of conservativism- Libertartian, small government hands off conservatism vs paternalisitic, social conservatism or taken to its logical extremes anarcho-capitalism vs authoriatarism

In the Thatcher/major years it played out over Sunday trading, over homosexuality, over Alton's abortion bill and so on.

And we have another example here- this is nothing really new.

 

[Urbanblues]

...the burbs are packed with people...

That's the problem!

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I must be expressing myself very badly. It's the 3rd time I've pointed it out and still noone gets it, even though you just reiterated the key fact.

The difference is that a proportion of pre-drinkers will pre-drink more to counteract the sobering effect of the non-drinking journey time. D

Oh.




Has someone done a study?

Or are you talking about what you will be doing?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Londoners mostly don't engage in that sort of unsolicited, mawkish openness on the tube

Not even the drunkards?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Changed my mind on this. Was against all food & drink on the tube as it works so well in Hong Kong.

However, Gordon Brown says we're in greater danger than ever from terrorists. So I say it should be compulsory to drink booze on the tube. Anyone not drinking proper would likely be a muslim, therefore a suspect and shot. Seven times. In the head.

Couldn't we find a happy medium, and just make everyone who rides the tube eat a pork schnitzel instead?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

A passenger survey showing the actual need for this new law backed up by police arrest figures would be a good start,.

So if we surveyed UKers and a majority favoured the death penalty, should it be brought back?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

There's ample evidence of major problems caused by people drinking on planes.

There is?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Besides the point is consistency here. If it's unacceptable behaviour on tubes then it must be equally unacceptable on planes.

You're trying to compare apples to oranges.

Air travel is provided by private companies, to whom I pay hundreds of dollars to ferry me across the Atlantic. If the public demands a right to have a drink concommitant with the payment of all that airfare, it's good business for the airline to provide it.

A transit system is owned by the public, and for most, travel on it is an unavoidable necessity. As it is owned by the public, the public can demand certain levels of decorum to be present for those who are forced to use its services.

 

[ajdown]

Air travel is provided by private companies, to whom I pay hundreds of dollars to ferry me across the Atlantic. If the public demands a right to have a drink concommitant with the payment of all that airfare, it's good business for the airline to provide it.

Last time I flew to the states, you could get fruit juice, water, tea or coffee free, or cans of something were £3/$5 each.

Most people only had one can, if at all, because of the cost - so it is a deterrent.

The majority of cases of drunken behaviour come from the first class cabins, where alcohol is usually free.

Given that you aren't allowed to take your own onto a plane ... that seems a fairly reasonable solution - if you must have alcohol, you are at least having to pay for the privilege.

These flights were 8 hours, not 20 minutes, however.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I think that's what those against the tube drinking ban have been saying too. People will drink more at home, thus be drunker once they get on the tube. The amount they can currently drink on a short tube ride isn't going to get them drunk or make them significantly drunker than they were before.

The physical act of holding a can of lager to your mouth and drinking is not doing anyone any harm. Nobody's yet proven that it will - so it seems pointless using money and resources on it.

BTW, this new rule hasn't been brought in because a minority of people drink on the tube and then misbehave badly, it's been brought in because our new Mayor wants to look tough and please a certain section of the population. Which is pretty much what all new political leaders do when they first take up office.

You may or may not be right. What I think he's doing, is following in Giuliani's footsteps, with a 'broken windows' policy.

Giuliani said that the way to start back toward public order, is to sweat the small stuff. The analogy is that if you leave a bunch of broken windows in buildings on streets, it creates a lowered sense of pride, a lower desire to keep things orderly, etc. So you start by mending the windows. He also cracked down smaller offences. It apparently helped to turn around the disorder of New York.

In UK, it might be true that most tube drinkers don't cause problems, but it might be more of a perceptual thing, that it's ok to drink anywhere and everywhere. Sort of an air of licence, that it's always a party, so it's ok to cut up, do whatever.

By working to change those subtle perceptions, you create a higher expectation of decorum from the average person on the street.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You seem to have missed the point by a mile.

This isn't about major problems, which are as many people have already pointed out, already prohibited.

This is about the minor problems. The small incivilities. The inconsideration for others. The unwelcome, discourteous, sub-criminal undesirable behaviour.

This is what I was getting at talking about the 'broken windows policy'. The message re: drinking is sort of like, 'you aren't in your front room. Don't treat these public places as if you were in your front room.'

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I think eating oranges and other citrus fruit should also be forbidden on the tube. Smell makes me drool and that's a discomfort for me and many other people would also experience this. BAN the fruit!

Where I live, alcohol isn't actually singled out: all eating and drinking is banned on public transportation. It's inconsiderate to other riders.