BNP national demo in Keighley

[flimsier]

so flimsier is right i think

I must be wrong.

 

[rednblack]

I must be wrong.

if it feels so right...it can't be wrong

 

[james_walsh]

electoralism is fetishising the tactic of standing in elections as a primary way of changing things

so flimsier is right i think

Thats how i understand the phrase. RnB had to clarify your post filmsier , so deafently correct.

 

[sihhi]

So are you saying that you are defining 'electoralism' as being standing for national parliament?

Isn't that just a self-serving definition?

I'd call it (adjusting my previous definition) "standing in elections as the primary method of bringing about change" as how people on the left generally see it.

You're a better definer than me- I thought my definition was a standard Leninist one.

In which case the IWCA aren't electoralist- based on the use of the word "primarily".

 

[rednblack]

In which case the IWCA aren't electoralist- based on the use of the word "primarily".

no, i don't think they are

 

[flimsier]

deafently correct.

Is that correct but no-one can hear me?

I'm really going. Cup game.

 

[flimsier]

no, i don't think they are

I didn't, but I think since the mayoral election they've opened themselves up to the charge, particularly with the General Election and so on.

However, we've also done that one and I am late!

 

[Pickman's model]

Is that correct but no-one can hear me?

I'm really going. Cup game.

go! and never darken this thread again!

 

[hibee]

How do i mis represent your views the only alternative is to build a political organisation that stands in elections. This is hardly new or actually really inspirational or amazing. its the same old re hash of vote for me politics where better than them.

Its failed before and it will fail again.

As for the grow up comment, i think you should looke further at your self next time you stuff IWCA election leaflets through the door.
One day you will reach political maturity and realise that elections and government are a sham.

I apologise if you feel mis represented, i took the itching powder remark to be deregotary and a flippant swipe at militant anti fascism. If it was not please accept my humble apols.

I've been a busy lad in the real world for the last couple of days so I haven't had time to reply to this.

If you can be bothered to read my posts on this thread, rather than just deciding what you think I must have said and "replying" accordingly, you'll see I take a horses for courses approach to this. Militant tactics are apppropriate against militant groups. When the far right are building their strength in communites similar tactics are needed to counter them. This might or might not involve standing in elections. Sometimes there may be a grey area but, in the present climate, chucking rocks through windows without an accompanying political stategy seems of little value.

I'm aware that you think standing for the council is tantamount to selling your soul. Fair enough, I disagree with you, I've voiced those arguments elsewhere. But whether because you are unwilling or unable to listen to my arguments you fail to distinguish between those who see elections as the be all and end all of change (social democrats) and others like myself who are well aware they will not achieve my objectives but are prepared to use them as a tactic. If I said militant anti-fascists saw violence as the only way forward you would rightly come down on me like a ton of bricks. So why the double standards?

I have never said, once, that "the only alternative is to build a political organisation that stands in elections." That's a lie. I want a political alternative that may or may not use elections as a tactic. If you think that invalidates the whole approach fair enough, but argue with me rather than some Labour left straw man in your head.

As it happens I've never stuffed an IWCA leaflet through a door, I'm not even a member. The idea of someone as vacant as yourself lecturing me on maturity is one of the funniest things I've seen this year.

 

[audiotech]

The NF were certainly weakened by the above tactics, but what finally fucked them was Thatcher and the tories moving to the right and stealing their political space,

The only way to halt the BNP now is to wait for a conservative leader to make a racist speech then?

Answer this, why were fascists able to organise violent attacks in 1978 and not five years later? Wasn't anything to do with Thatcher's 'swamped' speech was it, or the tories moving to the right?

Remember, in France the National Front, led by Le Pen, increased it's support every time conservative politicians made racist speeches in an attempt to attract his supporters.

You seem to be arguing that political action has minimal political impact outside parliament?

However, the then leaders of the NF and it's membership became to know differently.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

oh god what do you do when you agree with both camps?

 

[Herbert Read]

I seem to remember, reading the old RA paper back in the late eigthies and early nineties, that they often talked about what AFA had been up to only the previous month.

Nobody is asking anybody to name those involved or give specifics. In any case, as illustrated by a post that you recently put on here yourself, you are quick enough to boast about what you perceive as your successes when it suits you. You can't have your cake and eat it, Herbie. All I am saying is that the things that you have boasted about on here, and your comrades have boasted about on other sites, are usually directed at the no-hope fringe of fascism. Meanwhile the BNP makes steady progress in the political arena, among working class people who do not share your fetishistic anti-electoralism-at -all-times attitude.

Im not involved with militant anti fascism the post was anonymous on indymedia.

I linked it to this site and in fact made no boastful comments apart from supporting the action verbally.

I am merely expressing support for tactics.

I have and never will be involved in militant anti fascism.

 

[rednblack]

oh god what do you do when you agree with both camps?

rise above it and feel quietly superior - i do

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Im not involved with militant anti fascism the post was anonymous on indymedia.

I am merely expressing support for tactics.

I have and never will be involved in militant anti fascism.

Paranoid.

 

[Herbert Read]

Paranoid.

no im just a spectator passing comment i am active just in more nice areas of direct action, i usually stick to stealing biscuits as you well know.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

i keep having these attacks of deja vu... about urban.

I can remeber icepick saying something about stealing biscuits maybe three years ago but maybe not...

herbert read is is not involved in militant antifascism - that is violence aimed at fascism

he is involved in militant nihilism though - that is violence aimed at... Everyone including himself?

I wanna destroy
passers by

Only joshing herb

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

1) Mothers Against Paedophilia is a BNP front group

2) On the other hand, as illustrated by the Anna Hall C4 'Edge of the City' documentary (shown 26/8/04) there is a genuine abuse issue in the area--while the Metropolitan/PC Left deny it, this only vacates political space for the BNP to move into. That Searchlight have admitted this (after I did ) does not make it any the less true. Those people in Keighley/Bradford who have voted BNP did not do so because they fancy Griffin as the new Goebbels (or Nick Cass as Heydrich) but because serious political concerns have not been addressed by New Labour, whose essential message for the white working class is 'fuck off & die' (soon).

I think we are entering dangerous ground.There is a pakistan/muslim child abuse ring. I know people in the area [its blatant gangs of young girls ages 10 -16 wait for the gang to pick them up.We have two choices we either let the fascists go to the rescue of these young girls or we organise our selves against the ring.I've got a feeling this is going to come back and haunt the left.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

I think we are entering dangerous ground.There is a pakistan/muslim child abuse ring. I know people in the area [its blatant gangs of young girls ages 10 -16 wait for the gang to pick them up.We have two choices we either let the fascists go to the rescue of these young girls or we organise our selves against the ring.I've got a feeling this is going to come back and haunt the left.

no i think you are on dangerous ground, imho. Can you give some evidence to the claim of child abuse rings? How do they work and for what purpose? To provide brothels with underage girls? I have never really understood this issue due to its amazing ability to sound like total bollocks. There was however a BBC documentary on it that got pulled - so i am not properly filled in yet. However, if what you are saying is true then yes the left should tear these scum apart using the tactics that we know best.

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

no i think you are on dangerous ground, imho. Can you give some evidence to the claim of child abuse rings? How do they work and for what purpose? To provide brothels with underage girls? I have never really understood this issue due to its amazing ability to sound like total bollocks. There was however a BBC documentary on it that got pulled - so i am not properly filled in yet. However, if what you are saying is true then yes the left should tear these scum apart using the tactics that we know best.

I can't give any evidence no. Maybe if I took a cam down to Keithley I could film what is going on.
Its common knowledge there was something going off in Keithley scores of very young girls meeting on the corners waiting to get picked up .
What I'm basicly saying is we can't just pretend none of it is true.If we do the fash will have alot more councillors in Yorkshire.
Like I said this is dangerous ground and if we are not carefull this is going to play right into the bnp's hands.As they will be trying to capitalise and milk this for all its worth.

 

[belboid]

There is a pakistan/muslim child abuse ring.

from the reports I saw, I recall that there was certainly evidence of such child abuse rings, and that there were muslims involved in (some of) them. But there were also substantial numbers of white blokes involved in them as well, it was not an 'all muslim' thing at all.

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

from the reports I saw, I recall that there was certainly evidence of such child abuse rings, and that there were muslims involved in (some of) them. But there were also substantial numbers of white blokes involved in them as well, it was not an 'all muslim' thing at all.

Maybe we should try and find out exactly what is going on.
On the documentary it never mentioned the white blokes .
If there was white blokes involved then c4 should of mentioned this instead of blaming just the pakistani/muslims.

 

[rebel warrior]

Unite have called a protest...

From www.uaf.org.uk

Demonstrate against the fascist BNP in Keighley - Saturday 5th November

Assemble at Keighley Town Hall at 12 noon, Saturday 05 November

The BNP is organising two demonstrations in Yorkshire in November. To build their demonstration in Keighley they are promoting the racist myth that Asian Muslim paedophile gangs are preying on young people and that Police failure to "get tough" is "institutional anti-white racism".

This event is clearly intended to whip up racism against the local Muslim and Asian communities and to damage community relations. The BNP is planning to end their protest with a bonfire and fireworks.

UAF, Yorkshire TUC, and the local MPs have all urged the police to ban the BNP demonstration in Keighley.

At present the BNP protest has not been banned. Therefore UAF is asking its supporters to mobilise for the demonstration against the BNP and to organise coaches to Keighley.

For further information contact UAF on 020 7833 4916

There is also an important protest in Leeds:

Peace and Unity in our communities - Don't Let the BNP divide us

Yorkshire and the Humber TUC and Unite Against Fascism are organising a rally and protest to coincide with BNP leader Nick Griffin’s appearance in Leeds Court on 2 November 2005.

This is a peaceful, positive response to show our rejection of the fascist BNP and their politics of hatred and fear, but to make it successful we need YOU to join us! Come in your lunch hour, come for the whole day, come alone or with friends and colleagues, but make sure you’re there.

WEDNESDAY 2ND NOVEMBER 2005, 9AM

PROTEST OUTSIDE LEEDS CROWN COURT, OXFORD ROW

12 NOON, MAJOR RALLY OUTSIDE LEEDS ART GALLERY

 

[Taxamo Welf]

From www.uaf.org.uk
The BNP is organising two demonstrations in Yorkshire in November. To build their demonstration in Keighley they are promoting the racist myth that Asian Muslim paedophile gangs are preying on young people and that Police failure to "get tough" is "institutional anti-white racism".

Do you have any proof its a myth love? Do you even read our fucking threads here? LOOK UP.

 

[hibee]

Evidence please rebel.

I'm afraid even your typical lazy cut and pastes demand some backup

 

[Taxamo Welf]

I want evidence it will be a MAJOR RALLY too.

 

[rebel warrior]

So hibee and Taxamo Wolf - do you think that there is firstly an ethnic dynamic to paedophilia, and secondly that there is a religious dynamic to paedophilia?

I doubt all that somehow - and agree with what belboid said about this.

The problem then becomes not anything to do with 'anti-white racism' or 'asian muslims' but simply paedophilia.

In that case, why are the BNP having a demo about this? They are simply doing it to stir up even more racism against a very demonised and marginalised minority community in the area. The job of anti-racists is to stand with that community - not further isolate them as New Labour want to do. That is why is it is right to protest against them - and make sure they are kicked out of the area.

If you start -like New Labour do - with the main problem being Muslims and not racism and fascism then you end up not protesting against the BNP at all. If the BNP organised a 'hang paedophile scum demo' in your area would you think 'oh, thats a good cause'?

Better background on the protests here: http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=7611

 

[The Black Hand]

I want evidence it will be a MAJOR RALLY too.

Don't shoot the messanger (although it is tempting)... From what webel posted it looks like there will be a demo. I remember going to Leicester about 2001 on an 'anti fascist' march, and there was a coupla hundred. I should think there will be about the same on this, probably more (I don't know). In terms of it being a major rally, I think anything would be 'major' given that there has been NOTHING so far. I think a lot of old yorkshire activists might get aggrieved that the BNP are organising a demo in a former working class heartland... Certainly worth a look for a number of reasons... I may even go, though I haven't decided yet, as there's a previous commitment I have made for that day.

 

[where to]

a muslim friend of mine would only go out with virgins. yes, that has nothing to do with paesdophilia, but i can imagine where such an obsession towards 'cleanliness' could lead one.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

a muslim friend of mine would only go out with virgins. yes, that has nothing to do with paesdophilia, but i can imagine where such an obsession towards 'cleanliness' could lead one.

Do Muslims have an obsession with 'cleanliness'? and how would an obession with 'cleanliness' have anything to do with expolitive sex with children?

The issue the BNP have picked up on is about groups of young males apparantly grooming vulnerable girls for sex and prostitution.

 

[where to]

firstly, i was refering to rebels question: "do you think that there a religious dynamic to paedophilia?"

secondly, i didn't say that muslims do have an obsession with 'cleanliness'.

and how would an obession with 'cleanliness' have anything to do with expolitive sex with children? what i am suggesting is that for a man who wants only to have sex with virgins, child virgins may become something that they may.... seek? value?

by the way - i am not saying that there is a religious dynamic to paedophilia - i am just suggesting where the practicalities of certain peoples sexual desires may lead them....

it would be a good moment for that weblink with the age of consent of various nations in the world to appear, i cannie mind what it says mind.