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BNP national demo in Keighley

sihhi said:
What do you count as Western Europe?

Austria: Freedom Party.

Switzerland: Swiss People's Party.

Italy: National Alliance.

All did well in general elections.



But none of them ever came close to being able to force through even a fraction of their programmes. A lot of voters had thrown in their lot with them, though, and for a variety of reasons, while the left was arguing the largely unchanged line of the last eighty years and being outflanked.

Some nice careers were built for representatives of the fascist parties though, so there's compensation for not having a hope in hell of their vision coming to pass.
 
rebel warrior said:
However, was capitalism to go into massive crisis today then of course the bosses would increasingly turn to fascists if their usual parties were not able to keep workers in line and profits up.



Why?
 
I'd imagine that life has got a lot worse for many people in fascist-run areas, e.g. the many towns in the South of France that the NF hold -- and this is without any siezure of central state power. Fascism is worse, the bigger a hold it has, it's not an off/on situation.
 
rebel warrior said:
The thing about fascists building up a street fighting force only really comes when the working class movement is taking over the streets and workplaces and the bosses need a counterweight to this.

This is factually wrong though isn't it- fascists have built up street fighting forces independent of what the working class movement is doing nd the needs of bosses.

Fr instance the Falange Party in the 1970s, Serbian Radical Party 1980s 1990s, Russian Republic today (who assasinated Nikolai Girenko) have all built up their street fighting forces arguably without a working class movement at all.
 
LLETSA said:
But none of them ever came close to being able to force through even a fraction of their programmes. A lot of voters had thrown in their lot with them, though, and for a variety of reasons, while the left was arguing the largely unchanged line of the last eighty years and being outflanked.

Some nice careers were built for representatives of the fascist parties though, so there's compensation for not having a hope in hell of their vision coming to pass.

In general I'd agree- but due to SPP money from their cabinet posts- their "No" campaign on easing citizenship (and voting) rights to non-Swiss people in Switzerland back in September 2004 was won.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3694076.stm

Pretty indiscriminate police round ups of Roma people/gypsies and their expulsion to Hungary and Romania also increased iirc.
 
The BNP announce that they will attend a march called by a front group and within one day we are on to fascism serving the needs of capital in crisis and how it could take over the streets. Funniliy enough they turned up at Griffins trial dates and at the UAF launch in Manchester but this didn't signal a return to the streets.

I agree with many of the points that Larry put forward. A cursory glance at their website reveals their 'plucky' respectebility in the face of a PC state. Even Jones's question on question time is framed as proof that they are part of the mainstream. The rabble of losers and glue sniffers who long for pure fascism in the National Alliance/British Peoples Party/NF might want to march and grow but their own existence is very much in threat rather than being on the cusp of expansion and the BNP would not want them spoiling their publicity event.

Rather than argue what UAF might be doing at the 11th hour to react to the march what are RESPECT doing in Keighly politically to provide an alternative to those in the working class who have been taken for granted by Lab/Libs/Toires?
 
Chuck Wilson said:
Rather than argue what UAF might be doing at the 11th hour to react to the march what are RESPECT doing in Keighly politically to provide an alternative to those in the working class who have been taken for granted by Lab/Libs/Toires?


If they are coming out with the sort of fuckwittery reported from one of the participants at a Chris Bambery meeting in York, reported in Workers Liberty, that the Ashes victory parade was reminiscent of a Nuremburg rally the BNP must be having a recruitment field day.

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/view/4827
 
Random said:
I'd imagine that life has got a lot worse for many people in fascist-run areas, e.g. the many towns in the South of France that the NF hold -- and this is without any siezure of central state power. Fascism is worse, the bigger a hold it has, it's not an off/on situation.



Do you know where any accounts can be found of exactly what has happened in such towns?
 
Larry O'Hara said:
1) The BNP are fascist, not Nazi: it is the SWPs stupid refusal to realise this distinction that guarantees failure.
sort of quibble here: as i understand the definitions (obviously in v simplistic terms):

Nazi = ultra-violent, ultra-authoritarian, racist extreme nationalist with (loosely) state-socialist economics
Fascist = likewise (but not so necessarily racist) with capitalist/corporatist economics...

therefore, from the little that i have actually bothered to read of the BNP's economic "policy" and working class recruitment strategy, doesn't that make them more Nazi than Fascist (with them, of course, trying to downplay those associations)?

or are they more corporatist rather than state-industry "socialist" now?

regardless, it would be nice if all the non-white drugs gangs and suchlike in the north were alerted to the bnp march, and turned up to drive-by the lot of them...
 
soulrebel said:
regardless, it would be nice if all the non-white drugs gangs and suchlike in the north were alerted to the bnp march, and turned up to drive-by the lot of them...

What a peculiar thing to say. Are white drug gangs allowed to be opposed to the BNP in your world?
 
LLETSA said:
Isn't it the case that they call their local organisations branches, and only where they have too few activists to form a fully fledged branch use the term unit? (I could be wrong about this, so it's a genuine question.)

Groucho posting -

Yes, you are wrong.
 
rebel warrior said:
Hibee - the depth of the capitalist crisis determines the extent the bosses look to private armies and fascists - so in the 1970s the crisis was not the same as the 1930s and today it is not as deep as the 1970s.

However, was capitalism to go into massive crisis today then of course the bosses would increasingly turn to fascists if their usual parties were not able to keep workers in line and profits up.

The point is that capital historically has only fallen back on fascism when it has no better option. Its interests are much better served through the political centre which has the advantage of greater stability.

In Spain, Chile, Germany, Italy etc a change in this state of affairs has needed three requirements:

a) a collapse/absence of credibility of the centre ground
b) a stong fascist/reactionary movement
c) (most important, this) a strong working class movement threatening a change in the status quo in their favour.

Today none of these are the case. The political centre is stronger than it ever has been and there is no prospect of this changing. While the BNP is resurgent and attracting support it is hardly a mass movement. And most vitally, there is no immediate liklihood of the workers mobilizing against capital.

Capital has no need to fall back on a movement which would be, in two important respects, contrary to their interests: anti europe and anti immigration. Given that this state of affairs is not likely to change in the near future they will continue to back new labour.

This means two things

a) your concept of anti fascism is hopelessly out of date
b) by falling back on support for Labour, you are backing the class enemy.
 
hibee said:
The point is that capital historically has only fallen back on fascism when it has no better option. Its interests are much better served through the political centre which has the advantage of greater stability.

In Spain, Chile, Germany, Italy etc a change in this state of affairs has needed three requirements:

a) a collapse/absence of credibility of the centre ground
b) a stong fascist/reactionary movement
c) (most important, this) a strong working class movement threatening a change in the status quo in their favour.

Today none of these are the case. The political centre is stronger than it ever has been and there is no prospect of this changing. While the BNP is resurgent and attracting support it is hardly a mass movement. And most vitally, there is no immediate liklihood of the workers mobilizing against capital.

Capital has no need to fall back on a movement which would be, in two important respects, contrary to their interests: anti europe and anti immigration. Given that this state of affairs is not likely to change in the near future they will continue to back new labour.

This means two things

a) your concept of anti fascism is hopelessly out of date
b) by falling back on support for Labour, you are backing the class enemy.
Thats an excellent post and all true. But this was the throughout AFAs existence too. Were they wrong too? And don't you think that things can change a lot faster anyway? so capital is served by the centre left happily at the moment, but the point about financial crises is you don't see them coming. And as for the bnp not being a mass movement, no but do you want to wait till they are one to tackle them? When it will mean guns and civil war possibly?

(if you only look at one question, answer the AFA one. I really am puzzled)
 
LLETSA said:
Do you know where any accounts can be found of exactly what has happened in such towns?

Vitrolles is a banlieu type suburb of Marseilles of 400,000+ voters where FN won in 1997 in a two-way race after Gaullists, Socialists, PCFers and Trotskyists all agreed to put just one candidate forward.

They lost in 2002 partly as a result of the cuts ordered from higher above on Vitrolles mayorship's budget meaning they couldn't do all the things they promised, partly as a result of failing to control crime. iirc correctly there was again a pact and two-way race and the Socialists' Guy Obino won.

A quick google of "Front National Vitrolles" gives the following beware of sources and translations.

The party has tended to cut back on social services for immigrants as well as cultural activities deemed "anti-family" or "multicultural." Spending has been redirected to the municipal police and other services.
In Orange the Front National reduced school spending by 50%. In Vitrolles 150 civil employees were fired, while the police force was expanded from 34 to 70 officers. During the election campaign, members of the Department of Protection-Security shot and killed 17-year old Ibrahim Ali. In Vitrolles, the party sought to give 500 euros to the families of each French baby born, but was unable to do so for constitutional reasons. In Vitrolles the director of the cinema was fired because he had shown a movie about homosexuality and AIDS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(France)

In both Orange and Marignane, the chief librarians have had their employment terminated and been replaced by non-professionals who are more sympathetic to the Front National's right-wing perspective....
'Those who are still working in the libraries are very afraid,' says Claudine Belayache, President of French library association LBF, 'so they do not talk easily to colleagues and information is difficult to come by. They have become mute.'
http://www.la-hq.org.uk/directory/record/r199707/orange.html

Claudine Belayache said:
At Orange, because of local conditions, mayor Bompard immediately turned his attention to the library and its acquisitions. From the end of 1995 titles were removed from the lists of acquisitions proposed by the librarian in charge, and new titles were imposed. A conflict had started in which the evident purpose of the local government was to remove all initiative of ordering from the professionals, to make the library a stake in the unmistakable political propaganda.....
The periodical ‘Le Métier de Bibliothécaire’ is considered ‘too specialised’ (it’s the professional book for training librarians) and is excluded.
http://www.ifla.org/faife/papers/others/belayc_e.htm

http://www.librijournal.org/pdf/2003-4pp227-236.pdf

Subsidies have been withdrawn from rap and ethnic musicians and from festivals which showed gay movies; cultural centres which held "non-French" events have been closed; schools stopped from offering special meals to Jewish and Muslim children; municipal libraries banned from subscribing to leftwing publications.
In Vitrolles the Front town council briefly offered an illegal £500 "baby subsidy" to couples who added to their family - providing that both parents were of white European origin.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1045358,00.html

Rene Guiffrey, a sculptor, learned by chance recently that the City Council of Toulon, which is run by the extreme-right National Front, had destroyed an abstract fountain he completed for the city a couple of years ago.
So when hundreds of artists, actors and writers descended on the city this week to protest what they describe as the National Front's assault on contemporary forms of expression, Mr. Guiffrey was there with them.
http://www.iht.com/articles/1997/02/15/france.t_3.php

striking drivers in Vitrolles, near Marseille, were assaulted by squad of National Front thugs during national truckers strike, 5 November 1997. (Photo: L’Humanité)
In another case in 1997, workers struck the Valéo auto headlight plant in Evreux (Eure) in April when plans were announced to shut it down. In response, in early June the management contracted with a private security company, OGS (Management and Security Organization) led by the mercenary Gonzague du Cheyron du Pavillon (a former member of the OAS), which supplied a squad of 80 thugs, including numerous DPS members, to block workers protesting the removal of the machinery from the plant. At one point the fascist goons tried to break through the workers’ pickets, but trucks were turned back as the picketers heaved rocks at them. Earlier, in February 1997, the Normandy security agency sent a squad of 24 thugs led by fascists of the GUD to carry out an attack on the CGT union at a paper plant in Corbeil (Essone).
http://www.internationalist.org/nationalfront&strongstate0602.html
 
As far as AFA goes, I wasn't involved in it (my anti fascism to date has consisted of a bit of misguided lollipop waving). But I expect they would make the case that during their existence the BNP was very much pursuing a street strategy, breaking heads and marching, and needed to be countered in kind; now it has moved onto communtiy work/"euronationalism" it needs to be taken on differently.

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying, Taxamo. I think they do need to be taken on and do I think they are a threat. But if you want to find the way to tackle them you need up-to-date maps.

For what its worth if the BNP were to suddenly revert to type and keep their support I'd reckon the likes of RW were right. But I don't see that happening any time soon for reasons I've explained.
 
hibee said:
As far as AFA goes, I wasn't involved in it (my anti fascism to date has consisted of a bit of misguided lollipop waving). But I expect they would make the case that during their existence the BNP was very much pursuing a street strategy, breaking heads and marching, and needed to be countered in kind; now it has moved onto communtiy work/"euronationalism" it needs to be taken on differently.
Ok, but thats pretty much irrelevant to what you said before. Thats the reason generally given to why AFA is no more by its ex members who went on to form the IWCA. What you were saying was that the far right only became a threat when capital needed them.... Which was not the case during the 80's and 90's when afa was active.

I understand and agree with what you are saying by the way, but they still need to be tackled in the same way as before imho. Otherwise if we get on to the 'economic conditions are not X, class forces need to be Y' road and always wait for some certain balance we might as well go back to waving lollipops again for all we will achieve.

:)
 
Taxamo Welf said:
Ok, but thats pretty much irrelevant to what you said before. Thats the reason generally given to why AFA is no more by its ex members who went on to form the IWCA. What you were saying was that the far right only became a threat when capital needed them.... Which was not the case during the 80's and 90's when afa was active.

I understand and agree with what you are saying by the way, but they still need to be tackled in the same way as before imho. Otherwise if we get on to the 'economic conditions are not X, class forces need to be Y' road and always wait for some certain balance we might as well go back to waving lollipops again for all we will achieve.

:)

So there is no need to build a political alternative to the BNP then for working class communities betrayed by New Labour?
 
Its not just about street fighting such as cracking heads, but limiting the capacity they have to hold meetings by targeting property, attacking the organisation is central to minimising their ability to organise in a confident and co-ordinated manner.

Waiting for certain conditions before you physically oppose fascism is like swpies waiting for the stated conditions for the perfect revolutionary moment.
 
Taxamo Welf said:
Ok, but thats pretty much irrelevant to what you said before. Thats the reason generally given to why AFA is no more by its ex members who went on to form the IWCA. What you were saying was that the far right only became a threat when capital needed them.... Which was not the case during the 80's and 90's when afa was active.

I understand and agree with what you are saying by the way, but they still need to be tackled in the same way as before imho. Otherwise if we get on to the 'economic conditions are not X, class forces need to be Y' road and always wait for some certain balance we might as well go back to waving lollipops again for all we will achieve.

:)

I don't think the far right in the 80s the far right were ever in danger of organising mass deportations and herding dissident into forced labour camps, just like today's BNP. That doesn't mean theat they didn't and don't pose a threat. In the "march and grow" days the fear was that they would attract young white males from the terraces from a pedestal of being these tough streetfighters etc so it made sense to kick fuck out of them and show them up. Nowadays their orientation is very different and mrs mop from the estate isn't going to be impressed by all that, so you respond differently.

As I've said I'm a bit uneasy about telling people how they should respond to the far right as my own efforts in this department were misguided to say the least. I'm not going to slag off anyone who uses militant tactics and it certainly makes sense to batter the remnants of street fascism (NF,BPP etc, not that they're any sort of threat) according to the logic of the above paragraph.

But ultimately, as Chuck said, the real way of taking on a community-orientated BNP is to offer a political alternative. Like it or not, doing otherwise you are effectively urging a vote for Labour - because I don't see any other movements being formed to fill the vacuum.
 
Herbert Read said:
Its not just about street fighting such as cracking heads, but limiting the capacity they have to hold meetings by targeting property, attacking the organisation is central to minimising their ability to organise in a confident and co-ordinated manner.

Waiting for certain conditions before you physically oppose fascism is like swpies waiting for the stated conditions for the perfect revolutionary moment.

I'm not saying certain conditions have to be met before you oppose fascism. I'm arguing that when you do so you use tactics appropriate to the present time.

Harrassing them is all well and good and if people want to do it I have no problem with that. But without building an alternative that working class people can turn to it just becomes like Millie and Cuthbert from the Young Conservatives pouring sugar into the Labour candidate's petrol tank.
 
Herbert Read said:
Its not just about street fighting such as cracking heads, but limiting the capacity they have to hold meetings by targeting property, attacking the organisation is central to minimising their ability to organise in a confident and co-ordinated manner.

Waiting for certain conditions before you physically oppose fascism is like swpies waiting for the stated conditions for the perfect revolutionary moment.
i said that before you :p
But you said it better :(

To chuck and hibee: I believe in doing both. And it looks like you have no objection to that hibee, so cool :cool: end of :)
 
In 1979 it was school students who distributed and wore badges, tenants who organised to clean off fascist graffiti, groups set-up around RAR and in some instances, strikes by workers who really saw off the NF at that time.

The organised counter-demonstrations forced the fascists to shuffle along their planned route protected by thousands of police, their banners and flags hidden and their vitriol drowned out by the ebullience of anti-fascists.

It should be noted that most who attended counter-demo's against the NF weren't hardened street-fighters, but just ordinary people making a stand against racism and fascism.

Eventually the NF found it increasingly difficult to march. Their marches would be re-routed into a park, or industrial estate and eventually they began to march less and less as it became impossible for the police to guarantee their safety.

This opposition, that grew over a period of time, was the real force that led to the demise of the NF in 1979 and it's subsequent fracture into at least four factions.

Again, this time around, it won't be a handful of people secretly planning attacks on individual fascists, which will see off the present fascist incarnation, the BNP, but a broad based, non-sectarian, anti-fascist movement involving many.
 
Herbert Read said:
Its not just about street fighting such as cracking heads, but limiting the capacity they have to hold meetings by targeting property, attacking the organisation is central to minimising their ability to organise in a confident and co-ordinated manner.

Waiting for certain conditions before you physically oppose fascism is like swpies waiting for the stated conditions for the perfect revolutionary moment.



But most of the contemporary examples of this kind of activity seem to be directed not at the BNP, but at other tiny far-right sects. And they seem far from 'confident and co-ordinated.'

It has often been said on these boards that demonstrations held by today's NF usually seem to be made up, at best, of about fifty people, and that they appear to be roughly the same fifty people no matter which part of the country the demo takes place. What does this say about the level of threat they represent? They don't even seem to be able to attract the more extreme elements of the BNP who are disgruntled by the "modernisers'" approach in any significant numbers. There has recently been a thread on Stormfront in which a cross-section of fascist opinion seems agreed, to one degree or another, that the NF is past it's sell-by date. The best that even NF members themselves seem able to offer is that 'everybody must be encouraged to contribute in their own way' (where have I heard that one before?), or that at least the NF isn't the 'sell-out' BNP, with its Jewish and Turkish candidates and alliances with Sikhs etc etc.

Meanwhile, is there any evidence that the WNP/Nationalist Alliance/BPP, or whatever they are calling themselves this week, actually have any membership beyond the small bunch of discredited individuals that make up the central core? (Has anybody noticed that, when they put photos of their rallies online, it's more or less the same line-up of platform speakers, no matter where the meeting is claimed to have taken place-and even the room in every photgraph looks similar to...the last photo.)

Again, where is the fascist threat here? The venom of the BPP is obviously directed, primarily, not at immigrants or the working class but at the BNP.

And while all this is going on, the BNP continues to gather support in working class areas, where a large percentage of the local population feels abandoned by the mainstream parties. If they can portray themselves as victims of violence for doing nothing other than campaigning, in a legal and peaceful manner, for the interests of local people (what they actually do about them is beside the point), what is the view of the average punter contemplating voting BNP going to be regarding the perpetrators of the violence? This is especially problematic when no coherent alternative to what the BNP is offering is ever put to these people. Which is, of course, the crux of the problem.

Where is the political analysis?
 
MC5 said:
In 1979 it was school students who distributed and wore badges, tenants who organised to clean off fascist graffiti, groups set-up around RAR and in some instances, strikes by workers who really saw off the NF at that time.

The organised counter-demonstrations forced the fascists to shuffle along their planned route protected by thousands of police, their banners and flags hidden and their vitriol drowned out by the ebullience of anti-fascists.

It should be noted that most who attended counter-demo's against the NF weren't hardened street-fighters, but just ordinary people making a stand against racism and fascism.

Eventually the NF found it increasingly difficult to march. Their marches would be re-routed into a park, or industrial estate and eventually they began to march less and less as it became impossible for the police to guarantee their safety.

This opposition, that grew over a period of time, was the real force that led to the demise of the NF in 1979 and it's subsequent fracture into at least four factions.

.

The NF were certainly weakened by the above tactics, but what finally fucked them was Thatcher and the tories moving to the right and stealing their political space,
 
hibee said:
I'm not saying certain conditions have to be met before you oppose fascism. I'm arguing that when you do so you use tactics appropriate to the present time.

Harrassing them is all well and good and if people want to do it I have no problem with that. But without building an alternative that working class people can turn to it just becomes like Millie and Cuthbert from the Young Conservatives pouring sugar into the Labour candidate's petrol tank.

You assume i want to build an electoral alternative.
I oppose fascism as i do not want to live under a fascist government, i also oppose electoralism as i believe parliamentary democracy and local government is a sham.

Harrassment and attacking an organisation to hinder growth are entirely appropriate in present conditions.
 
Herbert Read said:
You assume i want to build an electoral alternative.
I oppose fascism as i do not want to live under a fascist government, i also oppose electoralism as i believe parliamentary democracy and local government is a sham.

Harrassment and attacking an organisation to hinder growth are entirely appropriate in present conditions.

You are very close to the cat calling labour politicos you so despise.


Where exactly did I say you want to build an electoral alternative?

As for me, I think elections can be a useful tactic in this process but it's clearly the work on the ground that's important. Much as I feel about putting itching powder down that rotter of a BNP candidate's collar.
 
hibee said:
Where exactly did I say you want to build an electoral alternative?

As for me, I think elections can be a useful tactic in this process but it's clearly the work on the ground that's important. Much as I feel about putting itching powder down that rotter of a BNP candidate's collar.

Its good to see you mock militant anti fascism i have had friends go to prison for what you are making light of.
 
Herbert Read said:
Its good to see you mock militant anti fascism i have had friends go to prison for what you are making light of.

Any fair minded person reading my posts will realise you are talking utter bollocks, misrepresenting my views like you did in the post above about elections.

Grow up.
 
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