BNP national demo in Keighley

[LLETSA]

Thanks for that. Are you trying to discuss politics or have you no answer.

'S all right.

 

[LLETSA]

While you are online Lletsa, this is a genuine question. I'd like to know why you think that such a scenario would mean the end of their breakthrough into the mainstream?

Seriously, I have to go off-line now. Back later.

 

[flimsier]

'S all right.

So you act like a know-it-all, then when questioned you don't explain.

You're worse than rebel warrior.

 

[flimsier]

Seriously, I have to go off-line now. Back later.

OK, let you off, and take it back.

 

[LLETSA]

OK, let you off, and take it back.

Ta.

Meanwhile, there's nowt to stop you saying what you think.

 

[flimsier]

Meanwhile, there's nowt to stop you saying what you think.

Well I pretty much think that wherever they raise their heads we should stop them and expose them for what they are.

But we've had that conversation. I'm actually interested in knowing why you think a turn to the street would indicate their time on the rise is at an end. If that's the same as what you were saying.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

But we've had that conversation. I'm actually interested in knowing why you think a turn to the street would indicate their time on the rise is at an end.

I presume his line of argument is that it is their abandonment of attempts to "control the streets", fistfights with anti-fascists, bootboys on marches etc in favour of a community based parish-pump racism that has enabled them to achieve the limited success they have so far had.

 

[hibee]

I presume his line of argument is that it is their abandonment of attempts to "control the streets", fistfights with anti-fascists, bootboys on marches etc in favour of a community based parish-pump racism that has enabled them to achieve the limited success they have so far had.

Which is a fairly incontravertible statement of fact.

 

[flimsier]

but which doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion Lletsa is pushing.

I'll be seriously disappointed if that is his level of analysis.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

but which doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion Lletsa is pushing.

I'll be seriously disappointed if that is his level of analysis.

why?

(and don't say 'because' )

 

[Groucho]

I presume his line of argument is that it is their abandonment of attempts to "control the streets", fistfights with anti-fascists, bootboys on marches etc in favour of a community based parish-pump racism that has enabled them to achieve the limited success they have so far had.

I think there is something in that. However, the aim of Fascists (and Nazis) will always be to be more than just electorally competent (not that they have been all that) but also to control the streets. I don't really think they are yet ready to take a turn to the streets, I suspect this is just a posture and that they are expecting a ban. But there will always be an aim to turn to street politics at some point.

 

[butchersapron]

I think there is something in that. However, the aim of Fascists (and Nazis) will always be to be more than just electorally competent (not that they have been all that) but also to control the streets. I don't really think they are yet ready to take a turn to the streets, I suspect this is just a posture and that they are expecting a ban. But there will always be an aim to turn to street politics at some point.

Says who? We're not in a re-run of the 20s and 30s (at any speed).

 

[hibee]

I think there is something in that. However, the aim of Fascists (and Nazis) will always be to be more than just electorally competent (not that they have been all that) but also to control the streets. I don't really think they are yet ready to take a turn to the streets, I suspect this is just a posture and that they are expecting a ban. But there will always be an aim to turn to street politics at some point.

Why? Is there something about the fascist character that hankers after marches and banners?

Europe's most successfull proponents of the far right in Austria and Italy don't go anywhere near the streets, they've realised the electoral road is serving them much better.

As Butchers says, the analysis of some on the left re: fascism hasn't moved with the times; much like their view of how they hope to take power.

 

[mk12]

Building a left alternative to counter fascism. What's wrong with that policy?

 

[Random]

Building a left alternative to counter fascism. What's wrong with that policy?

How does forming an anti-fascist organisation with various right wingers do that?

 

[butchersapron]

How does forming an anti-fascist organisation with various right wingers do that?

We must protect capitalist democracy against these facist monsters!

Or alternatively fostering the conditions in which the far right is currently flourishing by encouraging people to 'vote anyone but the BNP' - an effective call to vote for the status quo and for those who've brought about the current situation.

 

[rebel warrior]

We must protect capitalist democracy against these facist monsters!

Or alternatively fostering the conditions in which the far right is currently flourishing by encouraging people to 'vote anyone but the BNP' - an effective call to vote for the status quo and for those who've brought about the current situation.

Yeah. forward to the Third Period eh butchers?

Smash 'capitalist democracy'! Expose social fascism! Revolution now! After Griffin, our turn!

 

[mk12]

Building a left alternative to counter fascism. What's wrong with that policy?

 

[hibee]

Building a left alternative to counter fascism. What's wrong with that policy?

I was taking issue with Groucho's fairly bizarre claim that fascists will always hanker after a return to the streets, when the more intelligent among them will see very clearly there is a more profitable route.

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah. forward to the Third Period eh butchers?

Smash 'capitalist democracy'! Expose social fascism! Revolution now! After Griffin, our turn!

Back to the Popular Front eh RW? Let's ally ourselves with the capitalists, the small middle class parties and elements of the state. Oh look, the UAF is already there.

And could you please, please try and make some posts analysing the far right that don't rely on an approach developed specifically for the 1930s and vey different conditions.

 

[mk12]

I was taking issue with Groucho's fairly bizarre claim that fascists will always hanker after a return to the streets, when the more intelligent among them will see very clearly there is a more profitable route.

Ok.

 

[butchersapron]

Building a left alternative to counter fascism. What's wrong with that policy?

It's a pretty bland and meaninglessly vague platitude that serves to justify itself in an almost tautological manner - as if by describing what you think you're doing (and i cannot see at all how the UAF could ever fit that description) makes it the case in reality. There's not much else to it.

 

[mk12]

I wasn't specifically referring to the UAF. I thought that Hibee had a problem with the idea of building a strong left to counter the potential dangers of fascism. He'd claim the IWCA is doing just that, as you would for the A-Fed etc etc...

edit: tautological: "Needless repetition of the same sense in different words; redundancy" dictionary.com is good.

 

[rebel warrior]

Back to the Popular Front eh RW? Let's ally ourselves with the capitalists, the small middle class parties and elements of the state. Oh look, the UAF is already there.

Which capitalists, which small middle class parties and which elements of the state are in UAF?

And could you please, please try and make some posts analysing the far right that don't rely on an approach developed specifically for the 1930s and vey different conditions.

So the BNP are never ever now going to return to marches and street fighting with the left? Is that what you are saying?

 

[hibee]

So the BNP are never ever now going to return to marches and street fighting with the left? Is that what you are saying?

I don't think he is. Only that likewise they are not destined to do so. Indeed are doing very well by staying off the streets and engaging with the people in a way the traditional left do not.

 

[butchersapron]

Which capitalists, which small middle class parties and which elements of the state are in UAF?

Is this a joke? Here's a clue - and god knows you need one.

So the BNP are never ever now going to return to marches and street fighting with the left? Is that what you are saying?

I'm saying that the chances of them following the exact same path as the NSDAP and under the same social conditions could more than justifiably be discounted as minimal and therefore basing a long term strategy around an expectation of them repeating that historical process is likely to prove not only pointless but counter-productive and possibly harmful. The far right are not genetically wired to endlessly repeat past approaches. (That appears not to be the case with much of the left though).

 

[Groucho]

I was taking issue with Groucho's fairly bizarre claim that fascists will always hanker after a return to the streets, when the more intelligent among them will see very clearly there is a more profitable route.

The electoral strategy is only part of their agenda. The far more electorally succesful far right parties in Europe also seek to harden up a street fighting element when the time is right. Much division in their ranks stems from arguing over when the time is right. Why is this a feature of Fascist politics?

What is their aim? It is not to be a right-wing anti-immigration Tory party in Government, though that is the surface impression their electoral turn gives. Their aim is to create a racially exclusive country with an authoritarian regime able to eliminate the opposition. This is why they HOPE for a 1930s style crisis. They ultimately need sections of the ruling class to turn to them in desperation. In the meantime they wish to build a 'resctable' racist party with a hardened fascist core.

The likes of Griffin believe that in times such as these they need to make steady progress electorally but this fails to keep many of their members satisfied (not just the Nazi fanatics and thugs who Griffin would rather be rid of). The BNP say cearly that they are a revolutionary party. They use military terms for their local organisation - 'Units.' They (both Griffin and the more impatient members) seek ultimately to build a movement thast can control the streets not just the council chambers. So far they have not come close to either.

Violence is always barely hidden beneeth the surface of these organisations. Wherever they build a presence racist attacks increase.

However, the 'respectable' turn to electoral politics and the (temporary) dropping of some key policies do require a different strategy than during their street marching, flag waving street violent periods.

 

[rebel warrior]

I don't think he is. Only that likewise they are not destined to do so. Indeed are doing very well by staying off the streets and engaging with the people in a way the traditional left do not.

But they know they can never get into power that way - fascists will never win a majority of votes in any country - even more after the experience of the horrors of Nazi Germany. They can pick up some votes now - but for real power they have to try to build a street fighting force.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I don't think he is. Only that likewise they are not destined to do so. Indeed are doing very well by staying off the streets and engaging with the people in a way the traditional left do not.

Agreed. The fact is

1) The BNP have grown by a mixture of adroit propaganda, slick organisation, tactical opportunism & street politics a la traditional Liberals, therefore they have neither the cadre nor the membership who are used to such a traditional strategy.

2) They have intermittently engaged in street demos: outside courts, Finsbury Park Mosque etc, but these are the exception rather than the rule.

3) Were the BNP to continue massively growing, at some point a street presence/arm might be re-introduced, but it is not within their strategic arsenal as currently constituted, other than a low-level security/stewarding structure headed up by Warren Bennett.

 

[butchersapron]

But they know they can never get into power that way - fascists will never win a majority of votes in any country - even more after the experience of the horrors of Nazi Germany. They can pick up some votes now - but for real power they have to try to build a street fighting force.

Which two western european countries have fascists been in central govt (in coalitions) in since WW2 and how did they get there?

(Excluding Spain and Portugal).