BNP national demo in Keighley

[Herbert Read]

But ultimately, as Chuck said, the real way of taking on a community-orientated BNP is to offer a political alternative. Like it or not, doing otherwise you are effectively urging a vote for Labour - because I don't see any other movements being formed to fill the vacuum.

How do i mis represent your views the only alternative is to build a political organisation that stands in elections. This is hardly new or actually really inspirational or amazing. its the same old re hash of vote for me politics where better than them.

Its failed before and it will fail again.

As for the grow up comment, i think you should looke further at your self next time you stuff IWCA election leaflets through the door.
One day you will reach political maturity and realise that elections and government are a sham.

I apologise if you feel mis represented, i took the itching powder remark to be deregotary and a flippant swipe at militant anti fascism. If it was not please accept my humble apols.

 

[Herbert Read]

But most of the contemporary examples of this kind of activity seem to be directed not at the BNP, but at other tiny far-right sects. And they seem far from 'confident and co-ordinated.'

It has often been said on these boards that demonstrations held by today's NF usually seem to be made up, at best, of about fifty people, and that they appear to be roughly the same fifty people no matter which part of the country the demo takes place. What does this say about the level of threat they represent? They don't even seem to be able to attract the more extreme elements of the BNP who are disgruntled by the "modernisers'" approach in any significant numbers. There has recently been a thread on Stormfront in which a cross-section of fascist opinion seems agreed, to one degree or another, that the NF is past it's sell-by date. The best that even NF members themselves seem able to offer is that 'everybody must be encouraged to contribute in their own way' (where have I heard that one before?), or that at least the NF isn't the 'sell-out' BNP, with its Jewish and Turkish candidates and alliances with Sikhs etc etc.

Meanwhile, is there any evidence that the WNP/Nationalist Alliance/BPP, or whatever they are calling themselves this week, actually have any membership beyond the small bunch of discredited individuals that make up the central core? (Has anybody noticed that, when they put photos of their rallies online, it's more or less the same line-up of platform speakers, no matter where the meeting is claimed to have taken place-and even the room in every photgraph looks similar to...the last photo.)

Again, where is the fascist threat here? The venom of the BPP is obviously directed, primarily, not at immigrants or the working class but at the BNP.

And while all this is going on, the BNP continues to gather support in working class areas, where a large percentage of the local population feels abandoned by the mainstream parties. If they can portray themselves as victims of violence for doing nothing other than campaigning, in a legal and peaceful manner, for the interests of local people (what they actually do about them is beside the point), what is the view of the average punter contemplating voting BNP going to be regarding the perpetrators of the violence? This is especially problematic when no coherent alternative to what the BNP is offering is ever put to these people. Which is, of course, the crux of the problem.

Where is the political analysis?

In West yorkshire both the BNP and NA have been opposed physically.

You have to judge it on a local basis which far right group has the most impact physically as well as politically. Nationally the BNP are the bigger threat but locally a smaller group could have a big impact in localities.

There are groups in the west yorks area and social centres been built that act in similar ways to the IWCA, as i have explained to you before.
People have recognised that there is a vacuum and successful attempts have been made to fill it. Its not either or as both are essential and needed.

We will always disagree on the use of electoralism as a tactic though

 

[Chuck Wilson]

In West yorkshire both the BNP and NA have been opposed physically.

You have to judge it on a local basis which far right group has the most impact physically as well as politically. Nationally the BNP are the bigger threat but locally a smaller group could have a big impact in localities.

There are groups in the west yorks area and social centres been built that act in similar ways to the IWCA, as i have explained to you before.
People have recognised that there is a vacuum and successful attempts have been made to fill it. Its not either or as both are essential and needed.

We will always disagree on the use of electoralism as a tactic though

What is electoralism?

 

[Paul Marsh]

What is electoralism?

Standing in elections?

 

[LLETSA]

Herbie the nihilist: the very model of political maturity

One day you will reach political maturity and realise that elections and government are a sham.

I'm off on my well deserved two week holiday in the morning. Thanks for getting me in light-hearted mood, Herbie!

 

[LLETSA]

I oppose fascism as i do not want to live under a fascist government, i also oppose electoralism as i believe parliamentary democracy and local government is a sham.

Political maturity in action.

 

[LLETSA]

You have to judge it on a local basis which far right group has the most impact physically as well as politically. Nationally the BNP are the bigger threat but locally a smaller group could have a big impact in localities.

These smaller groups: between the end of AFA's physical tactics and recent times, the field has been almost entirely clear for street-orientated fascism, such as that of the NF and, ahem, the WNP/NA/BPP. On which localities have they 'had a big impact'?

 

[LLETSA]

How do i mis represent your views the only alternative is to build a political organisation that stands in elections. This is hardly new or actually really inspirational or amazing. its the same old re hash of vote for me politics where better than them.

Leaving aside your usual misrepresentation of the IWCA approach regarding elections, can you give an example of the type of politics that can be said to have not failed and explain why it was successful?

 

[LLETSA]

I oppose fascism as i do not want to live under a fascist government

Don't we all.

But are you seriously suggesting that the BNP, let alone the NF and BPP, represent the potential for a fascist government?

 

[Herbert Read]

These smaller groups: between the end of AFA's physical tactics and recent times, the field has been almost entirely clear for street-orientated fascism, such as that of the NF and, ahem, the WNP/NA/BPP. On which localities have they 'had a big impact'?

You seem to think that because red action took the bat and ball with AFA that all physical confrontation against fascism stopped.

This is incorrect and far from reality LLETSA.

LLETSA your political analysis is a broad one, do you know claim to speak for every area in the U.K with your vast knowledge and insight into anti fascism.

 

[Herbert Read]

Don't we all.

But are you seriously suggesting that the BNP, let alone the NF and BPP, represent the potential for a fascist government?

I have never said that, i have pointed out that fascist meetings should be opposed and confronted when they appear in your area.

They should be hampered and attacked to halt organisation and development.

 

[Herbert Read]

Leaving aside your usual misrepresentation of the IWCA approach regarding elections, can you give an example of the type of politics that can be said to have not failed and explain why it was successful?

If you explain to me why electoralism as a tactic is not pointless and serving only to further a system that is as moribund as your banal political analysis.

 

[LLETSA]

You seem to think that because red action took the bat and ball with AFA that all physical confrontation against fascism stopped.

This is incorrect and far from reality LLETSA.

LLETSA your political analysis is a broad one, do you know claim to speak for every area in the U.K with your vast knowledge and insight into anti fascism.

No I don't think it all stopped, and I have no axe to grind for RA. However, I see no evidence of anything even approaching the scale of the battles AFA fought with the BNP and others, taking place after the BNP abandoned the streets and AFA's tactics changed accordingly. Although you and others claim that this is not so, the case you usually present always seems a bit evidence-lite (for security purposes, you understand....)

 

[LLETSA]

I have never said that, i have pointed out that fascist meetings should be opposed and confronted when they appear in your area.

They should be hampered and attacked to halt organisation and development.

With a million votes in 2004 and twenty-odd councillors, and something approaching 5% in the last General Election, the only fascist organisation that counts for anything in the UK today, far from having its organisation and development halted, seems to be going from strength to strength.

 

[LLETSA]

If you explain to me why electoralism as a tactic is not pointless and serving only to further a system that is as moribund as your banal political analysis.

What's the point when it's already been done to death? No matter which way anybody puts it, you always but always respond with the same old Anarchism for Infants-gleaned remarks.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Standing in elections?

Any elections ? Standing for shop steward, being elected to a conference or AGM, being a residents rep, council, parliament?

 

[Herbert Read]

What's the point when it's already been done to death? No matter which way anybody puts it, you always but always respond with the same old Anarchism for Infants-gleaned remarks.

Much the same as your arm chair prattle on the benefits of socail democracy, elections and realistic working class twoddle.

What ever analysis you put on it democarcy is and will continue to be a sham

 

[Herbert Read]

.

 

[Herbert Read]

.

 

[Herbert Read]

With a million votes in 2004 and twenty-odd councillors, and something approaching 5% in the last General Election, the only fascist organisation that counts for anything in the UK today, far from having its organisation and development halted, seems to be going from strength to strength.

Then the more reason to orgainse militant anti fascism to oppose the growth, with new tactics of hitting them.

Its a lot more realistic then waiting for the IWCA to steal the grass roots support of fascism

 

[Herbert Read]

No I don't think it all stopped, and I have no axe to grind for RA. However, I see no evidence of anything even approaching the scale of the battles AFA fought with the BNP and others, taking place after the BNP abandoned the streets and AFA's tactics changed accordingly. Although you and others claim that this is not so, the case you usually present always seems a bit evidence-lite (for security purposes, you understand....)

do you really think that people should talk about recent actions on an open forum, the only reason people talk about the old AFA battles is becuse they are in the past, some over 15-20 years ago.

Not only are you a vast social consevative but an arm chair goading loon fuck wit.

 

[LLETSA]

do you really think that people should talk about recent actions on an open forum, the only reason people talk about the old AFA battles is becuse they are in the past, some over 15-20 years ago.

Not only are you a vast social consevative but an arm chair goading loon fuck wit.

I seem to remember, reading the old RA paper back in the late eigthies and early nineties, that they often talked about what AFA had been up to only the previous month.

Nobody is asking anybody to name those involved or give specifics. In any case, as illustrated by a post that you recently put on here yourself, you are quick enough to boast about what you perceive as your successes when it suits you. You can't have your cake and eat it, Herbie. All I am saying is that the things that you have boasted about on here, and your comrades have boasted about on other sites, are usually directed at the no-hope fringe of fascism. Meanwhile the BNP makes steady progress in the political arena, among working class people who do not share your fetishistic anti-electoralism-at -all-times attitude.

 

[LLETSA]

Then the more reason to orgainse militant anti fascism to oppose the growth, with new tactics of hitting them.

Its a lot more realistic then waiting for the IWCA to steal the grass roots support of fascism

Nowhere do the IWCA claim that it has to be them alone who 'steal the grass roots support of fascism.' What they have done is offer an example of how they can win the support of the same kind of audience that the BNP has.

This statement says about all that needs to be said about your politics, Herbie. They are, at base, elitest.

 

[LLETSA]

Then the more reason to orgainse militant anti fascism to oppose the growth, with new tactics of hitting them.

Its a lot more realistic then waiting for the IWCA to steal the grass roots support of fascism

By the way, Herbert, can you explain in what way the above is an answer to the points made in the quote below?

And while all this is going on, the BNP continues to gather support in working class areas, where a large percentage of the local population feels abandoned by the mainstream parties. If they can portray themselves as victims of violence for doing nothing other than campaigning, in a legal and peaceful manner, for the interests of local people (what they actually do about them is beside the point), what is the view of the average punter contemplating voting BNP going to be regarding the perpetrators of the violence? This is especially problematic when no coherent alternative to what the BNP is offering is ever put to these people. Which is, of course, the crux of the problem.

 

[LLETSA]

Much the same as your arm chair prattle on the benefits of socail democracy, elections and realistic working class twoddle.

What ever analysis you put on it democarcy is and will continue to be a sham

Nothing like a petulant outburst of nonsense to send me off on me hols.

I will depart with a rich store of Herbie's Komic Kutz committed to memory. If anybody sees a bloke sniggering over his pint in a south coast pub, it's probably me thinking of our Herbert.

 

[sihhi]

Any elections ? Standing for shop steward, being elected to a conference or AGM, being a residents rep, council, parliament?

Electoralism is standing for national parliaments I think-
not local council elections or residents representative or shop steward etc etc

 

[flimsier]

Electoralism is standing for national parliaments I think-
not local council elections or residents representative or shop steward etc etc

According to whom?

Surely electoralism is standing for elections to change things?

 

[sihhi]

According to whom?

Surely electoralism is standing for elections to change things?

According to me- I said "I think".

There are those who believe that voting (!), let alone standing in any election whatsoever is a form of electoralism and thus wrong.

 

[flimsier]

So are you saying that you are defining 'electoralism' as being standing for national parliament?

Isn't that just a self-serving definition?

I'd call it (adjusting my previous definition) "standing in elections as the primary method of bringing about change" as how people on the left generally see it.

 

[rednblack]

electoralism is fetishising the tactic of standing in elections as a primary way of changing things

so flimsier is right i think