BBC - Owen Jones

[articul8]

He is a councillor for Islington, organising the Islington Fairness Commission.
His twitter is here: https://twitter.com/Croslandite

He is fighting the cuts by changing aspects of council policy and inviting the movement to attend so that it knows the truth about the Lib Dems and Tories' austerity policies.

Only in the blinkered world of a puritan non-pluralist could he be considered a 'careerist slimeball'!

Progress 'FTW' as the youth say.

Oh sorry - there was another one on Progress recently by Cllr. Zaffa von Kalwala in Brent.

 

[sihhi]

I think you can guess - labour candidates who take a rhetorical anti-cuts position should not be challenged, they represent one form that opposition to the austerity agenda may take. Thise who don't must be called upon and challenged etc

articul8 dismissed the suggestion that this was anything to do with electoral politics or that Greens would be made to stand down in favour of Labour Lefts fighting in narrow local contests.

 

[articul8]

But if they say they are anti-cuts before the election they must not face other anti-cuts candidates - right?

I'm talking about a movement, not an electoral bloc.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm talking about a movement, not an electoral bloc.

You were asked about your involvement in networks standing candidates against labour. I'll ask again, if they say they are anti-cuts before the election they must not face other anti-cuts candidates - right?

 

[butchersapron]

articul8 dismissed the suggestion that this was anything to do with electoral politics or that Greens would be made to stand down in favour of Labour Lefts fighting in narrow local contests.

I like the way that he's set out the parameters for what's acceptable beforehand You've reminded me, i need to check out what the Greens are saying as regards economic stuff beyond the green new deal stuff.

 

[sihhi]

articul8 dismissed the suggestion that this was anything to do with electoral politics or that Greens would be made to stand down in favour of Labour Lefts fighting in narrow local contests.

He's doing good things for Brent too.

Brent achieved £14m of savings in adult social care, which is similar to the local NHS Trust. Despite the huge budget reduction the council still managed to deliver a better service and successfully move away from high-end expensive care to more preventative social care. Labour nationally can be confident that it can manage the finances and still work hard for social justice as Labour locally has done.

It's a win. He represents the people of a massive pan-cultural estate - Stonebridge Park - his voice needs to be a part of any anti-austerity pluralist initiative.

 

[articul8]

You were asked about your involvement in networks standing candidates. I'll ask again, if they say they are anti-cuts before the election they must not face other anti-cuts candidates - right?

There's two separate things. I would welcome the involvement of TUSC< Greens and others in a national anti-austerity network that was organised from the bottom up and had real community roots. But I would *not* be in favour of an organisation which stood candidates in elections at this stage. At elections people in the network will be free to vote Labour, Green, TUSC or whoever else. The movement may choose to intervene in election campaigns but will not endorse candidates - that would have to be clear from the outset.

 

[articul8]

It's a win. He represents the people of a massive pan-cultural estate - Stonebridge Park - his voice needs to be a part of any anti-austerity pluralist initiative.

He's an advocate of "efficient" cuts - these people are the problem.

 

[Delroy Booth]

The Greeks came to the conclusion that PASOK was irredeemable after the experience of seeing the consistently implement cuts. If Labour heads in that direction than the same might be true of Labour. *If*

When Labour get elected and start passing the exact same cuts as the coalition I suspect a lot of people will come to the conclusion Labour is irredeemable too. Everyone has their Ramsay MacDonald moment. I think I came to the conclusion Labour was irredeemable somewhere between the fall of Baghdad and the death of David Kelly.

They already doing it, look and Wales and Scotland and practically every council in every Labour area I can think of. These anti-cuts councillors are few and far between, and besides even if there is loads of them, do you really think that they'd be able to compell a big chunk of the Labour party on a council-level to pull a Militant and start setting a needs budgets? Even if they could, local government is utterly dependant on government spending, the Tories have no shame in just suspending all of them. I notice Lenny McCluskey had some criticisms of Labour councillors who were more concerned with their careers than fight cuts, in that speech he did recently, but saying this stuff during your election campaign is very nice but is there any prospect of it happening? None that I can see.

I don't think making comparisons, and basing our actions on cargo cult imitation of what's going on in Greece, is a good thing either. All these anaologies between our situation and theirs aren't very helpful - we're not trapped in a overvalued currency and being held at gunpoint by Germany whilst our country is systematically ransacked. Our political parties and recent history are very different. All the same, if we must discuss this in Greek term, Owen Jones will have his Syriza-ish network once Labour start implementing neo-liberalism with a vengence post-2015. Whether he'll be in it or against it is upto him.

 

[butchersapron]

There's two separate things. I would welcome the involvement of TUSC< Greens and others in a national anti-austerity network that was organised from the bottom up and had real community roots. But I would *not* be in favour of an organisation which stood candidates in elections at this stage. At elections people in the network will be free to vote Labour, Green, TUSC or whoever else. The movement may choose to intervene in election campaigns but will not endorse candidates - that would have to be clear from the outset.

You were asked about your involvement with a network standing candidiates against labour, you replid that you would have no problem with this. You then went onto to demonstrate that you do, in fact, have very big problems with it indeed when asked if labour candidates say they are anti-cuts before the election they must not face other anti-cuts candidates. And you're now trying to weasel out of your don't challenge labour position by having your cake (of course we should, no problem) and eat it too (this isn't about candidates anyway, why mention such a thing as challenging labour, that's off the table to discuss, verboten). Such weaselly politician blah blah.

 

[sihhi]

I like the way that he's set out the parameters for what's acceptable beforehand You've reminded me, i need to check out what the Greens are saying as regards economic stuff beyond the green new deal stuff.

Report back on what you find out I can't be arsed with them though they annoy me a tad on a local level.

Matt S used to provide insights but he buggered off as soon as the Greens got an MP in this spectacular flounce.

 

[butchersapron]

The movement may choose to intervene in election campaigns but will not endorse candidates - that would have to be clear from the outset.

I'm in control!!!

 

[Pickman's model]

No, if they vote for cuts they are part of the problem, whatever their rhetoric

why aren't you part of the problem?

you are a labour voting labour member.

labour stand for cuts.

labour are part of the problem.

you, as a labour party member voting labour, are therefore part of the problem.

 

[articul8]

It's not a question of control - it's a question of providing a basis that allows the network to function without immediately splitting over what we know already are likely to be divisive tactical questions

 

[sihhi]

He's an advocate of "efficient" cuts - these people are the problem.

Cuts against the rich, services for the poor - how is that "the problem"? Blairites, Tories and Lib Dems are the problem. If budgets are increased, the bond providers and ratings agencies will further increase the cost of borrowing for local councils.

 

[articul8]

why aren't you part of the problem?

you are a labour voting labour member.

labour stand for cuts.

labour are part of the problem.

you, as a labour party member voting labour, are therefore part of the problem.

Labour is widely seen as the only alternative, and the only way to punish the coalition

There is a section of Labour party supporters who oppose cuts.

I'm in the party in order to fight that battle and raise the idea of Labour government committed to representing the interests of working people

 

[Pickman's model]

Labour is widely seen as the only alternative, and the only way to punish the coalition

There is a section of Labour party supporters who oppose cuts.

I'm in the party in order to fight that battle and raise the idea of Labour government committed to representing the interests of working people

you're not making a very good job of it

 

[butchersapron]

It's not a question of control - it's a question of providing a basis that allows the network to function without immediately splitting over what we know already are likely to be divisive tactical questions

The movement may choose to intervene in election campaigns but will not endorse candidates - that would have to be clear from the outset.

And you've already decided what that basis is beforehand, saving everyone else the bother. Thank you claire.

 

[articul8]

Cuts against the rich, services for the poor - how is that "the problem"? Blairites, Tories and Lib Dems are the problem. If budgets are increased, the bond providers and ratings agencies will further increase the cost of borrowing for local councils.

who says the costs of local government borrowing are prohibitive in relation to the effect of cuts in services?

 

[articul8]

And you've already decided what that basis is beforehand, saving everyone else the bother. Thank you claire.

FFS - the dogs in the street know that the relevant forces would be divided over electoral tactics

 

[butchersapron]

FFS - the dogs in the street know that the relevant forces would be divided over electoral tactics

Well then i guess then that it's handy that you've decided that there will be no discussion or debate over the issue. Tell you what. why don't you go ahead and draw up something more detailed and pass it as policy yourself. Save other people going to the effort.

 

[articul8]

it's not a matter of me or anyone else deciding it - it's a pragmatic precondition

 

[Pickman's model]

it's not a matter of me or anyone else deciding it - it's a pragmatic precondition

oh dear.

 

[butchersapron]

it's not a matter of me or anyone else deciding it - it's a pragmatic precondition

I rather think that you have decided for everyone else.

The movement may choose to intervene in election campaigns but will not endorse candidates - that would have to be clear from the outset.

I can just see the people flocking to this open participatory network that you've set up for them.

 

[sihhi]

At elections people in the network will be free to vote Labour, Green, TUSC or whoever else. The movement may choose to intervene in election campaigns but will not endorse candidates - that would have to be clear from the outset.

"intervene"

OK so you have a local election with Tory, Lib Dem, Labour Left, Greens and TUSC all standing.
"The network" intervenes by advising people not to vote for the Tory and Lib Dem candidates. What is the point of that?

In fact, that kind of advice to the TUSC and Green people (part of the network) will appear to them, as the network advising a Labour vote because the biggest national non-Tory non-Lib Dem party is Labour.

 

[articul8]

"intervene"

That intervention could take different forms. It could present a series of questions, or draw up a set of demands that the candidates would be challenged to sign up to. It may well be the case that a Labour candidate didn't sign. It would then be upto people to draw their own conclusions

 

[sihhi]

That intervention could take different forms. It could present a series of questions, or draw up a set of demands that the candidates would be challenged to sign up to. It may well be the case that a Labour candidate didn't sign. It would then be upto people to draw their own conclusions

Aha! So exactly the same as what BARAC, YFFJ, National Campaign Against Fees and Cuts, False Economy and their Anti-ATOS Alliance, Anti-Academies Alliance, Boycott Workfare, Save Our Stations, People's Charter, Women Against the Cuts, Campaign for a Fair Society, Coalition of Resistance, Other TaxPayers’ Alliance, Public Services Alliance, Cuts Disgust, Keep Our NHS Public, High Pay Centre, Lost Arts, Tax Justice Network, Frontline First and hundreds of local anti-cuts unions and bodies do across the country. Brilliant!
Round-robin pledges to the candidates - why haven't we done that before hmmn... .

In fact why can't CLASS or the LRC make up its own lists without another bl--dy network?

 

[articul8]

Some of the above are a handful of activists no more - I'm talking about a significant overarching national network with a real basis in w/c communities

 

[Random]

Some of the above are a handful of activists no more - I'm talking about a significant overarching national network with a real basis in w/c communities

Again I am struck by the sheer practical problems. Why would this proposed network get the real basis that the others lack?

 

[butchersapron]

Again I am struck by the sheer practical problems. Why would this proposed network get the real basis that the others lack?

Well, this time it would have Red Pepper at the centre.

Well said @OwenJones84 - sounds like you want an organisational expression of @RedPeppermag

And not make the mistakes that compass made.

it had potential early on, but lost its way and was too Westminster based