BBC - Owen Jones

[ViolentPanda]

Why not?

It'll make them cry.

 

[Pickman's model]

So you're saying exactly what I've claimed you're saying, but with words that suit you better.
As a textual analyst, I find your posts an almost never-ending source of amusement. It's like watching Ouroboros consume its' tail.

it's more like watching someone who's extremely drunk pretend to be sober

 

[articul8]

because building an effective and united movement in situations where people have different tactics round elections and different party allegiances (including Leninist ones) means setting aside questions of party card and concentrate on organising around common aims and objectives where we can.

 

[articul8]

So you're saying exactly what I've claimed you're saying, but with words that suit you better.
As a textual analyst, I find your posts an almost never-ending source of amusement. It's like watching Ouroboros consume its' tail.

no you were saying something totally different - that I was saying people "shouldn't bitch about Labour's anti-austerity agenda" - that was NOT what i was saying

 

[Pickman's model]

because building an effective and united movement in situations where people have different tactics round elections and different party allegiances (including Leninist ones) means setting aside questions of party card and concentrate on organising around common aims and objectives where we can.

the problem is that your party is a major part of the problem.

 

[butchersapron]

because building an effective and united movement in situations where people have different tactics round elections and different party allegiances (including Leninist ones) means setting aside questions of party card and concentrate on organising around common aims and objectives where we can.

So you can be aggressively anti-labour but you're not allowed to criticise labour members for their membership and their parties policies. Cor this sounds great.

 

[articul8]

which is why it must be challenged and changed - no by all means attack Labour policy when it falls short of what an anti-austerity movement needs to be saying (or doing the opposite for what it should be doing).

 

[Pickman's model]

which is why it must be challenged and changed.

so your position is in your opinion a position which must be challenged and changed? what the fuck sort of position is that?

 

[butchersapron]

which is why it must be challenged and changed.

So, we're back to everything having to revolve around your party.

 

[sihhi]

FFS - I'm not saying that. I'm saying don't slag off people that are fighting that anti-austerity agenda from inside the party

In all honesty the LRC is very weak and poorly organised. It keeps a flag flying but it doesn't have anything like the resources of level of organisation that something like Progress has.

Are Progress fighting that agenda?

http://www.progressonline.org.uk/2013/01/21/beyond-the-dented-shield/

This poverty scars our borough, and 13 years of Labour investment in government in Westminster hadn’t shifted the dial, in no small part down to the indolence and apathy of the ruling Lib Dems on the council.

Inspired by The Spirit Level by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett, we decided that the response to the shocking realities outlined above wasn’t merely to try to tackle poverty, but rather to tackle inequality, creating a fairer Islington that would be to the benefit of all residents.

The commission was made up of 20 cross-sector, cross-party commissioners, co-chaired by Professor Richard Wilkinson and my councillor colleague Andy Hull. Its brief was to be radical but realistic. All commissioners knew that our recommendations would shape Islington’s agenda, strategy and budget for four years, so we had to get it right. Empty promising and posturing wouldn’t do the job; we needed a plan we could put into practice.

We held a year-long consultation process consisting of seven public meetings attended by hundreds of residents. There was also a huge volume of written submissions and evidence which were analysed and collated by cross-departmental problem-solving team.

At the end of this process we pulled together a report setting out our 19 wide-ranging key recommendations, including a three-pronged strategy to tackle debt and payday lenders, a literacy drive, building more affordable homes and some profound action on employment and skills. Have a look at our website to see the full list.

We intend to deliver and expect to be held to account, with a public progress report to our communities committee every six months and a public progress report to full council every 12 months.

We have already seen the fruit of our commission. We became the first council to achieve living wage employer status, on pay ratios we have cut the pay of our chief executive by £50k, brought our cleaning staff back in-house, and opened a Citizens Advice Bureau on Upper Street which is used by 1,000 people a month. And we know we can do more.

Are Progress allowed in on the pan-coloured anti-cuts initiative?

 

[Pickman's model]

So, we're back to everything having to revolve around your party.

he's all over the fucking shop. it's embarrassing to watch, can we shut him up?

 

[butchersapron]

Give them red pepper then.

You missed this one articul8.

 

[articul8]

so your position is in your opinion a position which must be challenged and changed? what the fuck sort of position is that?

Not my position fuckwit, the position of the Labour party leadership at national and local levels

 

[sihhi]

which is why it must be challenged and changed - no by all means attack Labour policy when it falls short of what an anti-austerity movement needs to be saying (or doing the opposite for what it should be doing).

Progress are doing this - expand the movement, join Progress. Stella Creasy is Walthamstow's most popular MP since the 1970s, attacking the failures of Miliband's wibbling over child benefit! Progress is assisting the councillors overcome austerity for the poor.

http://www.progressonline.org.uk/2013/01/11/bringing-labour-councillors-together/

 

[articul8]

Are Progress allowed in on the pan-coloured anti-cuts initiative?

This guy is a careerist slimeball from Brent (my own CLP) and I've consistently opposed the policy of the ruling Labour group on Brent council - in public and in private. "The cuts are inevitable" is a position which must be fought.

 

[Random]

The conditions for a SYRIZA type electoral bloc don't exist (yet?). What is possible is a greater degree of organisation and national infrastructure for a network of anti-austerity activists.

Sounds like any network you and OJ are involved with should be prepared to have its life support machine turned off as soon as it would benefit Labour. No offense.

 

[frogwoman]

You don't think that a substantial section of the working class would welcome the emergence of a broad anti-austerity formation like Syriza here?

Not involving the equivalent of pasok tho ...

 

[articul8]

You missed this one articul8.

No, I saw it - a cheap dig. Red Pepper is aimed primarily at people who have some involvement in or previous history of left organisations of one sort or another - and activists in the labour movement for thinking through the direction fo the movement. We don't claim to be a party or structure in utero.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Articul8 what's your position on working with a "network" that involves standing candidates against Labour councillors and MP's? Like Syriza did against PASOK.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Not involving the equivalent of pasok tho ...

Why is someone in the Labour party actually advocating a Syriza-ish anything? Have they seen how many MP's PASOK now has?

 

[articul8]

Not involving the equivalent of pasok tho ...

The Greeks came to the conclusion that PASOK was irredeemable after the experience of seeing the consistently implement cuts. If Labour heads in that direction than the same might be true of Labour. *If*

 

[frogwoman]

The Greeks came to the conclusion that PASOK was irredeemable after the experience of seeing the consistently implement cuts. If Labour heads in that direction than the same might be true of Labour. *If*

But they already do constantly implement cuts

 

[butchersapron]

No, I saw it - a cheap dig. Red Pepper is aimed primarily at people who have some involvement in or previous history of left organisations of one sort or another - and activists in the labour movement for thinking through the direction fo the movement. We don't claim to be a party or structure in utero.

It wasn't a cheap dig. It was a constructive proposal - if you argue that conditions exist for this floppy network then give your mag to the people who constitute it. Now. Or do you see your role as sitting above the fray ordering the forces hither and thither?

 

[Random]

Articul8 what's your position on working with a "network" that involves standing candidates against Labour councillors and MP's? Like Syriza did against PASOK.

This Netwoek isn't really a Syriza, even in embryo. It's an attempt by Labourites to hustle various campaigners into something that'll help the Labourites get some leverage to affect changes in their own party. With the LP as the focus, the nexus, the alpha and the omega.

edit: Netwoek sounds like some Dutch group

 

[articul8]

Articul8 what's your position on working with a "network" that involves standing candidates against Labour councillors and MP's? Like Syriza did against PASOK.

I work with people who stand against Labour in our local anti-cuts group no problem. Don't see why the same couldn't happen on a national scale.

 

[butchersapron]

Articul8 what's your position on working with a "network" that involves standing candidates against Labour councillors and MP's? Like Syriza did against PASOK.

I think you can guess - labour candidates who take a rhetorical anti-cuts position should not be challenged, they represent one form that opposition to the austerity agenda may take. Thise who don't must be called upon and challenged etc

 

[Pickman's model]

Not my position fuckwit, the position of the Labour party leadership at national and local levels

it appears to be a reply to my post. are you sure you're not wriggling like some nematode?

 

[sihhi]

This guy is a careerist slimeball from Brent (my own CLP) and I've consistently opposed the policy of the ruling Labour group on Brent council - in public and in private. "The cuts are inevitable" is a position which must be fought.

He is a councillor for Islington, organising the Islington Fairness Commission.
His twitter is here: https://twitter.com/Croslandite

He is fighting the cuts by changing aspects of council policy and inviting the movement to attend so that it knows the truth about the Lib Dems and Tories' austerity policies.

Only in the blinkered world of a puritan non-pluralist could he be considered a 'careerist slimeball'!

Progress 'FTW' as the youth say.

 

[articul8]

I think you can guess - labour candidates who take a rhetorical anti-cuts position should not be challenged, they represent one form that opposition to the austerity agenda may take. Thise who don't must be called upon and challenged etc

No, if they vote for cuts they are part of the problem, whatever their rhetoric

 

[butchersapron]

No, if they vote for cuts they are part of the problem, whatever their rhetoric

But if they say they are anti-cuts before the election they must not face other anti-cuts candidates - right?