BBC - Owen Jones

[articul8]

. I love this participatory democracy stuff.

But this is the point of the network Owen was proposing - participation doesn't have to be totally inside Labour or totally hostile to the involvement of anyone near Labour or Labour-affiliated unions. A stronger anti-austerity movement outside formal electoral politics would make it easier to force concessions from insitutions bound up with it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's a mid-life crisis fedora.

I bought a black one last month.

 

[ViolentPanda]

eye shadow or camera angle?

Both.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I like hats, but it just looks a bit ... Out of place.

He's got it on crooked, it's about half a size too small and having the brim pulled down low on the forehead may look a bit Al Capone, but it also makes him look like a gom.

 

[sihhi]

Well, he has a point in that nationalism isn't a substitute for class politics, but he's entirely missing the point that in this case nationalism (in terms of the "national vision" of the Scotnats and Plaid) may well reinforce the "more-equitable-than-England" socialism-shaded politics they already have. Owen's analysis is baldly "nationalism always bad". I don't like nationalism, but you have to look at it on a case-by-case basis in our existing political world. What serves "the people" best? As opposed to "you can't have nationalism, it's bad, m'kay?".

4

It comes down to Owen Jones not liking the left nationalist opposition- Cymru Goch, SSP, IRSP etc etc because they show up Labour.

The syriziation of the middle class left continues apace.

SYRIZA is the wrong benchmark - in Western strong capitalist substantial foreign investment (hate the word imperialist) it is Die Linke - the mass coalition of trots, pissed off Greens (admittedly after they were in coalition and hard SPD).
Basically I don't think a split from Labour would lead to SYRIZA but Die Linke.

I updated a thread about them here but it's in the wrong forum. Reality is still there.

 

[Random]

But this is the point of the network Owen was proposing - participation doesn't have to be totally inside Labour or totally hostile to the involvement of anyone near Labour or Labour-affiliated unions. A stronger anti-austerity movement outside formal electoral politics would make it easier to force concessions from insitutions bound up with it.

I don't see how this lash-up would mean a stronger anti-austerity movement. Instead it could lead to a few good campaigners getting embroilled in the endless arguments between the 57 different trot groups who want to take over, and just when that's finished a Green party member gets up to speak about why everyone should be working to ban mobile phones and laser mouses.

 

[butchersapron]

SYRIZA is the wrong benchmark - in Western strong capitalist substantial foreign investment (hate the word imperialist) it is Die Linke - the mass coalition of trots, pissed off Greens (admittedly after they were in coalition and hard SPD).
Basically I don't think a split from Labour would lead to SYRIZA but Die Linke.

I updated a thread about them here but it's in the wrong forum. Reality is still there.

I think you're probably right about what would happen - at least as regards the trad/trot groups, but i was really on about Red Pepper and their fellow travelers, it's def the Syriza model they are trying to push right now and with Red Pepper as the party house mag and Jones, Hilary etc as leading thinkers. That's right ain't it articul8?

edit: 100 red pepper articles on them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't see how this lash-up would mean a stronger anti-austerity movement. Instead it could lead to a few good campaigners getting embroilled in the endless arguments between the 57 different trot groups who want to take over, and just when that's finished a Green party member gets up to speak about why everyone should be working to ban mobile phones and laser mouses.

It'd also mean that the Labour elements of any such campaign would trot out the hoary old "vote Labour with no illusions" schtick at every opportunity, and attempt to dominate any such broad formation. Think Swappies with StWC.

 

[butchersapron]

But this is the point of the network Owen was proposing - participation doesn't have to be totally inside Labour or totally hostile to the involvement of anyone near Labour or Labour-affiliated unions. A stronger anti-austerity movement outside formal electoral politics would make it easier to force concessions from insitutions bound up with it.

It could even be aggressively anti-labour then?

 

[Random]

It comes down to Owen Jones not liking the left nationalist opposition- Cymru Goch, SSP, IRSP etc etc because they show up Labour.

My guess is he wants a united Britain for the same reason he wants first past the post - it'll make it possible for his party, Labour, to dominate across the board.

 

[articul8]

It could even be aggressively anti-labour then?

as long as it wasn't being sectarian towards the limited forces in Labour that are promoting the same anti-austerity agenda then absolutely, no question of pulling punches when it comes to cuts being implemented by Labour councils, or justified by affilated unions.

 

[butchersapron]

as long as it wasn't being sectarian towards the limited forces in Labour that are promoting the same anti-austerity agenda then absolutely, no question of pulling punches when it comes to cuts being implemented by Labour councils, or justified by affilated unions.

So first a no, then another no dressed up as a yes. because without that union money and manpower, this ain't going nowhere.

 

[sihhi]

The Assembly candidates are no more centrist than any other set of Labour candidates - if anything some are marginally left leaning (Murad Qureshi, Tom Copley etc) - certainly isn't an argument against preferential voting systems (note that the Irish have a significantly better left representation under STV than we have over here).

The organised Labour Left - the LRC which Owen Jones was a youth leader of - have probably the largest base anywhere in southern England and Midland, in Hackney - yet they still can't get anyone up into Assembly posts.
LRC Youth - from website only - is actually looking quite unactive maybe wrong.

http://www.lrcyouth.org.uk/blog-2/?post_type=latest_news

The point is LRC are not being selected even where their logic says they should be.Although they will get a few NEC members I'm sure.

 

[articul8]

I think you're probably right about what would happen - at least as regards the trad/trot groups, but i was really on about Red Pepper and their fellow travelers, it's def the Syriza model they are trying to push right now and with Red Pepper as the party house mag and Jones, Hilary etc as leading thinkers. That's right ain't it articul8?

Syriza faces tough tests to come. But its emergence has been hugely positive in Greece, and something along these lines would be very desirable over here if Labour starts to persist like PASOK in an austerity-driven agenda. Frankly, we know full well that a love-in of various left groups won't amount to anything - it needs to be locally rooted and speak to the social needs of working class communities.

 

[butchersapron]

Syriza faces tough tests to come. But its emergence has been hugely positive in Greece, and something along these lines would be very desirable over here if Labour starts to persist like PASOK in an austerity-driven agenda. Frankly, we know full well that a love-in of various left groups won't amount to anything - it needs to be locally rooted and speak to the social needs of working class communities.

Give them red pepper then.

 

[Random]

something along these lines would be very desirable over here if Labour starts to persist like PASOK in an austerity-driven agenda

In other words, it's too soon to write off Labour! What's to say that something like the Greek group could even emerge here? Especially considering even you are not even sure if you want it?

 

[butchersapron]

In other words, it's too soon to write off Labour! What's to say that something like the Greek group could even emerge here? Especially considering even you are not even sure if you want it?

Yesterday Labour were def going the PASOK route and heading for oblivion. Which makes the advice to join vote and work for them all the more curious.

 

[articul8]

The organised Labour Left - the LRC which Owen Jones was a youth leader of - have probably the largest base anywhere in southern England and Midland, in Hackney - yet they still can't get anyone up into Assembly posts.
LRC Youth - from website only - is actually looking quite unactive maybe wrong.

http://www.lrcyouth.org.uk/blog-2/?post_type=latest_news

The point is LRC are not being selected even where their logic says they should be.Although they will get a few NEC members I'm sure.

In all honesty the LRC is very weak and poorly organised. It keeps a flag flying but it doesn't have anything like the resources of level of organisation that something like Progress has.

 

[articul8]

In other words, it's too soon to write off Labour! What's to say that something like the Greek group could even emerge here? Especially considering even you are not even sure if you want it?

The conditions for a SYRIZA type electoral bloc don't exist (yet?). What is possible is a greater degree of organisation and national infrastructure for a network of anti-austerity activists.

 

[ViolentPanda]

My guess is he wants a united Britain for the same reason he wants first past the post - it'll make it possible for his party, Labour, to dominate across the board.

I'm sure he couldn't possibly be that cynical.

 

[articul8]

Yesterday Labour were def going the PASOK route and heading for oblivion. Which makes the advice to join vote and work for them all the more curious.

it will go in that direction *in the absence of mass movement against austerity*

 

[ViolentPanda]

as long as it wasn't being sectarian towards the limited forces in Labour that are promoting the same anti-austerity agenda then absolutely, no question of pulling punches when it comes to cuts being implemented by Labour councils, or justified by affilated unions.

Fuck's sake!

"You can be part as long as you don't bitch about Labour's anti-austerity agenda"? Get a fucking grip, you goatcock!

 

[sihhi]

I think you're probably right about what would happen - at least as regards the trad/trot groups, but i was really on about Red Pepper and their fellow travelers, it's def the Syriza model they are trying to push right now and with Red Pepper as the party house mag and Jones, Hilary etc as leading thinkers. That's right ain't it articul8?

edit: 100 red pepper articles on them.

I take your point I think you are wholly right about a Red Pepper bias towards presenting Syriza - the best case scenario in a country with a completely different dynamic and recent history - the aftermath of the military years and many adults remember PASOK in the 1980s as a Thatcher-type government and other things to do with the KKE.

The interviews with Die Linke leading figures are interesting:

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/left-leading-interview-with-die-linke-leader-katja-kipping/

I am one of the co-founders of the Institut Solidarische Moderne (see http://tinyurl.com/solidarische) because we think a change of government needs to be well prepared. It’s not enough to simply replace ministers; we need to shift hegemony and that requires people to accompany this shift in hegemony – i.e. organic intellectuals, to cite Gramsci.

One of the first things that Bernd Riexinger and I have done is set up a movement council. This is made up of people who represent the full political spectrum of the left, from the unions to the radical left. We haven’t invited the press, because we want to create a space for internal dialogue, both about the current potential for mobilisation and about the issues Die Linke should focus on.

It’s striking that many of the movement representatives said that while they thought social protests were important, they believed in the need for a real left-wing party in parliament and wanted us to run a successful election campaign. When Die Linke entered the Bundestag, we set up a contact point for social movements.

This is a point of contact where there can be continuous collaboration and analysis regarding the cooperation between movements and members of parliament, as well as the party more generally. And this is necessary especially because in movements a lot happens and there are always many shifts and changes.

What shouldn’t happen is the dominance or undermining of social movements by the party. But equally problematic would be a situation in which movements think, well, the party has money and can provide services for the movement.

Come to the movement council!

 

[articul8]

Fuck's sake!

"You can be part as long as you don't bitch about Labour's anti-austerity agenda"? Get a fucking grip, you goatcock!

FFS - I'm not saying that. I'm saying don't slag off people that are fighting that anti-austerity agenda from inside the party

 

[ViolentPanda]

Give them red pepper then.

Will we be frowned down on from the high table?

 

[Pickman's model]

as long as it wasn't being sectarian towards the limited forces in Labour that are promoting the same anti-austerity agenda then absolutely, no question of pulling punches when it comes to cuts being implemented by Labour councils, or justified by affilated unions.

it's back to post-neo-classical endogenous growth theory, i see

 

[Pickman's model]

FFS - I'm not saying that. I'm saying don't slag off people that are fighting that anti-austerity agenda from inside the party

why couldn't you say that like that instead of coming out with all manner of awful guff?

 

[butchersapron]

Will we be frowned down on from the high table?

If they even bother to turn up.

 

[ViolentPanda]

FFS - I'm not saying that. I'm saying don't slag off people that are fighting that anti-austerity agenda from inside the party

So you're saying exactly what I've claimed you're saying, but with words that suit you better.
As a textual analyst, I find your posts an almost never-ending source of amusement. It's like watching Ouroboros consume its' tail.

 

[butchersapron]

FFS - I'm not saying that. I'm saying don't slag off people that are fighting that anti-austerity agenda from inside the party

Why not?