BBC - Owen Jones

[butchersapron]

Bong!

 

[frogwoman]

more articul8ism lol

 

[articul8]

If Owen was opposing electoral reform per se (which is what he seems to be doing in that quote) that runs counter to the thrust of what he's argued in his latest column.

 

[butchersapron]

If Owen was opposing electoral reform per se (which is what he seems to be doing in that quote) that runs counter to the thrust of what he's argued in his latest column.

Seems? He was. oh god

 

[butchersapron]

You're why people vote labour because they're the last worst. You're closing down options to get past that. Hack.

 

[articul8]

What options am I closing down?

 

[butchersapron]

What options am I closing down?

Outside labour. But of course with a call for rhetorical radicalism.

 

[sihhi]

If Owen was opposing electoral reform per se (which is what he seems to be doing in that quote) that runs counter to the thrust of what he's argued in his latest column.

Every single Labour left person I'm aware of IRL is virulently anti-AV and anti-PR for that matter - if anything they're probably the kind who think the Euros should be changed to be FPTP

 

[sihhi]

Here's the link http://owenjones.org/2011/04/20/why-im-voting-no-to-av/

Above all, I oppose the Alternative Vote because I think it will institutionalise mushy centrist politics. I think that’s exactly the aim of many of its staunchest supporters, because they are (and I hope they don’t take offence to the description) mushy centrists and want an electoral system most likely to ensure their ideology dominates. They are completely entitled to that, but given I’m not a mushy centrist – I’m an unapologetic left-winger who wants a left-wing government – I have every reason for wanting to stop them achieving their aim.

He's saying your allies are mushy centrists, articul8.

 

[butchersapron]

... because I think it will institutionalise mushy centrist politics. I think that’s exactly the aim of many of its staunchest supporters,

there is the bubble. That's it.

 

[articul8]

Every single Labour left person I'm aware of IRL is virulently anti-AV and anti-PR for that matter - if anything they're probably the kind who think the Euros should be changed to be FPTP

McDonnell isn't anti-PR (he even backed AV - quietly), Livingstone isn't (though how far you'd describe him as "left" is open to question), likewise Cruddas, Billy Hayes - it's not as cut and dried as all that

 

[articul8]

there is the bubble. That's it.

there are some for whom that's true - but not all. Is he calling Serwotka, for eg. a "mushy centrist"?

 

[butchersapron]

there are some for whom that's true - but not all. Is he calling Serwotka, for eg. a "mushy centrist"?

I'm talking about you - you've burst out how?

 

[articul8]

I chose to campaign for electoral reform as a consequence of seeing that FPTP was a major obstacle to a viable left-of-labour alternative. Realistically, the referendum defeat has taking the voting system off the agenda in Westminster for the forseeable future. The overwhelming imperative now is to fight austerity and cuts, and that is true irrespective of whether you are fighting inside or outside Labour. (and I took a massive pay cut to work in a position where I might help to advance w/c interests in so far as that's possible in Westminster).

 

[sihhi]

McDonnell isn't anti-PR (he even backed AV - quietly), Livingstone isn't (though how far you'd describe him as "left" is open to question), likewise Cruddas, Billy Hayes - it's not as cut and dried as all that

I'm talking about leftie Labour-supporting old-timers in real life - I don't know many it has to be said - but they were all anti-AV.

Cruddas returns to "the Left" - this is good news for all progressives inside and outside the party.
As Laurie Penny bravely pointed out it makes sense to support both the left Jons - the Jon Cruddas and John McDonnell:

‘A new pro-social economy won’t work if it means a top down, domineering politics. The focus must be on the local level by politically reengaging with people and rebuilding institutions of local civic authority.‘

*PUNCHES THE AIR* Yess!

Someone needs to be making this point – we’re facing a crisis of localism AND a crisis of social and financial inequality, and a redistributive government does not have to be one which centralises obsessively.
I’m fangirling both the Jons quite hard right now. Do you think, though, that one way to do this is to encourage localised internet activism? If so, you might want to get involved with LeftNewMedia, John McDonnel’s new project, which I’m also on the steering committee of – email jonesop@parliament.uk for details."

http://liberalconspiracy.org/2008/12/18/where-does-capitalism-go-from-here/

 

[butchersapron]

I chose to campaign for electoral reform as a consequence of seeing that FPTP was a major obstacle to a viable left-of-labour alternative. Realistically, the referendum defeat has taking the voting system off the agenda in Westminster for the forseeable future. The overwhelming imperative now is to fight austerity and cuts, and that is true irrespective of whether you are fighting inside or outside Labour. (and I took a massive pay cut to work in a position where I might help to advance w/c interests in so far as that's possible in Westminster).

How much was the pay cut jesus?

 

[butchersapron]

...in so far as that's possible in Westminster).

How far is that possible?

 

[Random]

"LeftNewMedia, John McDonnel’s new project, which I’m also on the steering committee of" An endless fractal of self-replicating networks all serving on each others steering committees.

 

[sihhi]

I chose to campaign for electoral reform as a consequence of seeing that FPTP was a major obstacle to a viable left-of-labour alternative.

I think in electoral terms it is - but Owen Jones wants FPTP precisely so there is no 'viable left-of-labour alternative' - that someone - Greens or Labour - has to stand down in the race, none of this vote transfering business.

 

[articul8]

about 14k a year

 

[articul8]

I think in electoral terms it is - but Owen Jones wants FPTP precisely so there is no 'viable left-of-labour alternative' - that someone - Greens or Labour - has to stand down in the race, none of this vote transfering business.

I hope that his advocacy of a network beyond tribal party loyalties shows he's reconsidering that

 

[butchersapron]

I hope that his advocacy of a network beyond tribal party loyalties shows he's reconsidering that

All together in a big cake that you can have and eat too.

 

[butchersapron]

I hope that his advocacy of a network beyond tribal party loyalties shows he's reconsidering that

Call on him if he ain't. LIb-dems welcome?

 

[sihhi]

I hope that his advocacy of a network beyond tribal party loyalties shows he's reconsidering that

He's not reconsidering it because he knows what happened to the Labour Left in selection for the Mayoral assemblies (done with mixed member proportional representation) - blown out of the water because Labour people new that a Labour centrist is the best bet 'cos Greens will use their second prefs for Labour while a Labour Left would put off a mushy centrist from a Labour second pref.

He has been active in LRC 'vote for the right NEC' level Labour politics in addition to being McDonnell's researcher, he's not an idiot.

He doesn't want AV- I don't think he really wants PR either. He's fooling you. Defend AV. Resist usurpers like Owen Jones.

 

[sihhi]

Call on him if he ain't.

I call on Brendan Rodgers to discipline his players and his sons.

 

[articul8]

He's not reconsidering it because he knows what happened to the Labour Left in selection for the Mayoral assemblies (done with mixed member proportional representation) - blown out of the water because Labour people new that a Labour centrist is the best bet 'cos Greens will use their second prefs for Labour while a Labour Left would put off a mushy centrist from a Labour second pref.

On the contrary - an anti-war leftish sort would be MORE likely to get 2nd prefs from Greens (and Lib Dems) than a Blairite neocon.

 

[articul8]

Call on him if he ain't. LIb-dems welcome?

Lib Dems aren't welcome - they are propping up a vicious Tory government

 

[butchersapron]

Lib Dems aren't welcome - they are propping up a vicious Tory government

Rather than having taken part in or preparing to take part in the same. Just fuck off.

 

[sihhi]

On the contrary - an anti-war leftish sort would be MORE likely to get 2nd prefs from Greens (and Lib Dems) than a Blairite neocon.

But note a hard left Labour candidate would alienate more 2nd prefs from Lib Dems and other confused souls than the extra it would gain from the Greens' 2nd prefs (which are fairly automatic). In 2008 and 2012 it's been an automatic 'vote Labour 2nd Pref' from Green HQ. No iffing and butting about it. All London Assembly people are Labour centrists - Labour left has made no headway.

 

[ViolentPanda]

i)we are now seeing the emergence of a network of anti-cuts Labour councillors, and this will only continue to grow since cuts on the table are planned to run into 2018 and decimate local government - not everyone has wakened up to the realities of this...

Organisational dynamics being what they are, assuming that "this will only continue to grow" is a tad optimistic. While councillors tend to have a slightly better appreciation of the principles of public service than MPs do, there's often not much between them in terms of self-interest. There'll never be more than a minority of overtly anti-cuts councillors, because too many of them are creatures of their respective parties, and are unwilling to queer the future political career they desire.s

...ii) opposition might be widespread, but as yet relatively weak in its organisation and unfocused in terms of strategic interventions...

And of course Labour are the natural rallying-point for anti-cuts activism, given what Balls has already said on the subject, and given what Labour councils have already passed in terms of cuts.

....iii) too much of the last 2 years has been wasted on telling the TUC to get off its knees - the unions can throw their weight into a different kind of organising if they can break from their political deference to the Labour party, which isn't to say that the conditions are yet there for a total break.

A total break can't happen as long as the panjandrums of the unions see their positions as stepping stones into the Parliamentary Labour party or the Lords.