Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Where?
BBC - Owen Jones
- Thread starter Zabo
- Start date
Where?
rekil
to menny cranks
Post 653. A link to the blogpost and everything.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Heh. I'd forgotten I'd put that idiot on ignore. 
Well I can't see it so my point stands. Sorta. Koff koff.
Well I can't see it so my point stands. Sorta. Koff koff.
Heh. I'd forgotten I'd put that idiot on ignore.
Well I can't see it so my point stands. Sorta. Koff koff.
Grow up.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Asking a bit much there I think Spanky, KE's whole shitty liberal bubble politics is based on pretending what he doesn't want to see doesn't exist.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
Here it is again thenHeh. I'd forgotten I'd put that idiot on ignore.
Well I can't see it so my point stands. Sorta. Koff koff.
--
The internship system is already expensive enough to exclude all but the richest and most fortunate young people from popular jobs. I could pretend, for example, that it's my winning smile and blatant genius which have enabled me to find work as a journalist - but a year's unpaid interning, during which I survived on a small inheritance from a dead relative, had just as much to do with it. Any graduate or school-leaver without the means to support themselves in London whilst working for free can currently forget about a career in journalism, politics, the arts, finance, the legal profession or any of a number of other sectors whose business models are now based around a lower tier of unpaid labour.
rekil
to menny cranks
Treacle Toes
Time
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Cheers mate. Although that doesn't answer the question of how much...
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
Owen Jones @OwenJones84
If you're kicking about in Edinburgh this weekend, I'm speaking at this cracking anti-poverty conference on Saturdayhttps://www.facebook.com/events/398592460209982/ …
If you're kicking about in Edinburgh this weekend, I'm speaking at this cracking anti-poverty conference on Saturdayhttps://www.facebook.com/events/398592460209982/ …
Treacle Toes
Time
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I wonder, is there some way to actually be able to go on twitter?
Are you trying to say that you are the only person in the whole world who is not on twitter?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I'm saying that there's a limited worth in posting up twitter comments without anything else on a discussion board. If only there was some way to stop rutita doing this
Treacle Toes
Time
Owen is having a bad day or someone is up to funny business:
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
cripes!
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
You have it in one. The main thrust of the strategy is:
It's full of ugly chauvinism:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-strange-death-of-labour-scotland-8430502.html
He says Clement Attlee was a radical politician and looks to recreate 1945. Except Attlee wasn't radical and nor were his policies, but most importantly they produced what we have now and allowed Thatcherist backlash to thrive.
So Labour again. Except this time 2015 will be like the radicalism of 1945. We can look forward to EU intervention in Greece 2015 (Britain in the Greek Civil War, 1945) and mass flotillas to Iran in the late 2010s and onward (the various 'Abadan crises').
On the struggle for work the conclusions... ... :
The courts and the legal system are (with the possible exception of specialisms in medicine) the most extreme 'middle-class closed shop' there is. In fact it's more an outright upper-class/ruling-class domain. Also, there are millions of violations every year already (nothing to do with internships), often by removing essential-for-work items or rent-in-allocated-residences from wages. Yet none lead to prosecutions.
At the same time as attending national TU congresses, debating with the left sects, and appearing on the BBC again and again (today's Today programme calling for pillars of society awards WTF! was the last straw for me), Owen Jones is also happy to grace the private-members clubs of Soho.
See: http://thespanner.net/pdfs/The-Spanner-Issue-One.pdf
That's the conclusion of a member of Blacks after Owen Jones discussed his book there - entry by membership only with (presumably pay-for) reservations.
http://www.foodepedia.co.uk/restaurant-reviews/2011/mar/blacks.htm
Typical lunch:
A club so exclusive it's impossible to see its entry/membership requirements online.
That's the advice Owen Jones is giving to the ruling class:- stop the chav stereotypes (try a fresh remodelled 'salt of the earth', today;s ; think about immigration's impacts on the working-class (reduce it introducing EU quotas, push up entry costs); abolish the private schools (go for the European continental model: near-total comprehensive system, competitive exams at the end, division of labour force after that... ie delay the division of people into classes for a while longer).
The advice Owen Jones is giving to trade unionists: is basically articul8-ism (no offence articul8) join the party, move Ed Miliband to the left, don't let the United Kingdom die (yah boo the SNP and SSP).
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Look at this exchange on twitter:
'Nationalism is not a substitute for class politics'
Class politics is Labour, either inside the Labour Party proper or the left outside calling for the 'vote with illusions'. If you stray in any fashion beyond that you become "elitist puritanical ultras"
Note how the Labour Party are non-nationalism. The new charge of the (Old) Labour Brigade.
Less annoying than Laurie Penny but more poisonous, also has many, many more media appearances, more twitter followers over 75,000 most recently.
'Nationalism is not a substitute for class politics'
Class politics is Labour, either inside the Labour Party proper or the left outside calling for the 'vote with illusions'. If you stray in any fashion beyond that you become "elitist puritanical ultras"
Note how the Labour Party are non-nationalism. The new charge of the (Old) Labour Brigade.
Less annoying than Laurie Penny but more poisonous, also has many, many more media appearances, more twitter followers over 75,000 most recently.
that's pretty much spot on sihhi, great post.
I totally agree with this analysis of his politics, it's very Labourist post-bennite stuff, it's not hugely imaginative at all. I think faced with all the mad systemic problems in Europe and worldwide, this is too backward looking to lead to any sort of radical change. It actually fits in nicely with what people like Cruddas and Glasman are trying to do, so even if Jones is moderately left wing and a fairly convincing talking head, a nice non-threatening socialist opinion for the media, that's how his idea's will be taken up. I think that's how Chavs should be read, why it's got so many journalisty style quotes, coz it's aimed at that bubble.
I also think that the idea you can force Ed Miliband to the left by joining Labour and the LRC is flawed. There needs to be a comprehensive rebuilding of the radical left as a movement, starting with rebuilding trade unionism, before Ed Miliband will be moving anwhere to the left. You have to be able to put real pressure on leaderships, and right now the LRC even if it doubled its membership overnight, can't bring that sort of pressure.
The only other point I can think of is this line of thinking has some appealing qualities, the most appealing being that it's being seriously considered by Ed Miliband, who according to this has an 85% chance of being prime minister. I can see little elements of what Jones says being incorporated into this One Nation theme that Labour's planning on doing at the general election, but then once the election is over and Labour start making the exact same cuts as the Tories it'll quickly start sounding very hollow, and then maybe Owen being dropped as a Labour spokesperson?
Of course if there actually was a realistic chance of making Labour follow a Jonesy-Bennite policy after they got elected, it'd be great, infinitely preferable to more Tory neo-liberalism, but it's not going to happen Labour haven't budged an inch on their commitment to making cuts.
I totally agree with this analysis of his politics, it's very Labourist post-bennite stuff, it's not hugely imaginative at all. I think faced with all the mad systemic problems in Europe and worldwide, this is too backward looking to lead to any sort of radical change. It actually fits in nicely with what people like Cruddas and Glasman are trying to do, so even if Jones is moderately left wing and a fairly convincing talking head, a nice non-threatening socialist opinion for the media, that's how his idea's will be taken up. I think that's how Chavs should be read, why it's got so many journalisty style quotes, coz it's aimed at that bubble.
I also think that the idea you can force Ed Miliband to the left by joining Labour and the LRC is flawed. There needs to be a comprehensive rebuilding of the radical left as a movement, starting with rebuilding trade unionism, before Ed Miliband will be moving anwhere to the left. You have to be able to put real pressure on leaderships, and right now the LRC even if it doubled its membership overnight, can't bring that sort of pressure.
The only other point I can think of is this line of thinking has some appealing qualities, the most appealing being that it's being seriously considered by Ed Miliband, who according to this has an 85% chance of being prime minister. I can see little elements of what Jones says being incorporated into this One Nation theme that Labour's planning on doing at the general election, but then once the election is over and Labour start making the exact same cuts as the Tories it'll quickly start sounding very hollow, and then maybe Owen being dropped as a Labour spokesperson?
Of course if there actually was a realistic chance of making Labour follow a Jonesy-Bennite policy after they got elected, it'd be great, infinitely preferable to more Tory neo-liberalism, but it's not going to happen Labour haven't budged an inch on their commitment to making cuts.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
I have to reserve total judgement on Chavs because I still haven't been able to read it. I'm normally about 4 years late after this kind of exciting working-class literature. I read Michael Collins The Likes of Us: A Biography of the White Working-class last year from the local library. The only title with 'Working-class' in it in the library that wasn't a social work, education or health/nursing university text(!). Found it full of innuendo little substance and in the end pretty meaningless. I can only hope Chavs won't be that much of a let-down.
The LRC could quintuple its membership and its pressure would still be limited. But assume it did, then it would revert to a neo-1974 neo-1964 style Labour Manifesto. The last time there was a Tory-to-Labour shift before New Labour. And what was the result? A massive attack on sterling in 1966 and recession and a massive attack on sterling in 1975 and recession.
1 If the power is there to make Labour both adopt the manifesto and then fully enforce it by closing loopholes, abolishing the Lords, stripping back all wealth from the rich.
2 It means you have the power to not wait for Labour at all, and begin controlling your own areas/lines of production - distributing seized products on your terms
3 Not very likely as long as you're waiting for Labour.
4 Labour and its general elections and manifestos is always cart before the horse.
Owen is not a 'Labour spokesperson' in any official capacity, that's what makes him effective.
Note his biography on twitter: 'A 'braying jackal' according to Fox News. Socialist, Independent columnist, author of 'Chavs', Sheffield-born but Stockport-bred. My views only, obviously.' = 'I'm viciously attacked by the right, I come from the north, I am beholden to no one'
If Labour did commit to simply reversing coalition cuts - not a massive step at all, just keeping things as bad as they are in 2010 - the counter-response from concentrated business power would be heavy to put it mildly.
And there is no push for it - there is no strategy for One Nation either at local Labour or national Labour.
One Nation would have to imply Labour Left councils setting deficit budgets keeping services in w/class areas at least to something approaching the level at m/class areas. But there's nothing - just more socialist cuts.
Which elements? The only ones I can see are the cultural element - 'We Love Public Servants. Hi, I'm Ed I Heart Nurses' and the anti-SNP soft unionism.
Well you're quite right, again, but what you're talking about goes a lot further than just Owen Jones, but the limits of social democracy. You can get so far through parliamentary means before you come up against irreconcilable class interests, and at that point they'll use power brutally (capital flight, attacking the currency, even including sanctions and military intervention in the worst instances) to keep them in check.
The bit Owen Jones always goes on about was the line from the 1974 Labour Manifesto "irreversable shift in the balance of power in favour of working people and their families" which tbh I've always thought of as a bit of rhetoric, not sincere policy, but lets just assume you intend to follow up that pledge, what would be the result? Well you can look at Miterrand in France for a good example. If the Bennites/Labour Left had actually succeeded in the 80's and formed a government I can't see how that would've been any different.
And these guys were operating in a time when the Labour Left, and wider left, was significantly stronger than it is today. I don't see how this can work now when it didn't work then.
No he's not an official Labour spokeperson but c'mon he's not getting all this publicity out of nowhere. He's a de facto Labour spokeperson and he's definitely someone the party wants to be out there at the moment.
Don't disagree with this at all. The thing is, after 30 years of continuous defeat and pathological cynicism setting in, I'd settle for even a small reformist victory against the Tories. Perhaps that's a measure of my own cynicism but that's just the world as I found it.
Well the bit you mentioned that caught my eye "stop the chav stereotypes (try a fresh remodelled 'salt of the earth'," coz Cruddas has written articles and mentioned similar in interviews. The common theme is "X million of working class voters stopped voting Labour between 97 and 2010" and how to win them back. This includes losing working class voters to far-right parties, which may prompt a policy change on immigration and europe and so on.
Then because the election might be fought by the Tories on the idea of Labour being the dolescum party, something which has a lot of support in the media and even within working class communities. Labour is invoking this One Nation stuff to undermine them, to paint them as a party of a priviliged minority that seeks to divide people, "Two-Nation Tories" is the label that hurts them the most along with The Nasty Party.
But there's plenty within Labour, Byrne Purnell etc who are unapologetically in favour of just getting into an arms race with the Tories on who can demonise those on benefits the most. Triangulation etc. Right now they're in the cold in a little bit coz David lost and Ed won the leadership, but that'll be very different should Ed Miliband actually get elected. I can see Labour using all this nice pseudo-lefty stuff rhetorically in the election campaign and then once the election is over bringing all Purnell and the real right-wing bastard back in to continue with austerity, i've seen it enough from local Labour councillors who talk about opposing cuts then go and vote for them, and at least councillors have the excuse of punitive central governmant budget cuts to local councils, so I have no doubt a future Labour cabinet ministers will do do the same.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
The crucial part of 'parliamentary means' is that before you even get close to challenging anything, you're splintering and flopping about all over the place - a section of your supporters are ready to throw the towel in at any moment. The right has seen your moves and starts mobilising on a campaign where the effects of capital flight, are blamed as government policy.
Every liberal who explains the riots are "about designer trainers" actually senses
In Western capitalism, sanctions and external military intervention will never happen in the same way ever again. They're not needed and are restricting of returns on capital (when profitability is needed) and dangerous (can backfire). Capital flight and attacking the currency are used again and again - ie the merging of class interests upon fixed goals to overcome unwanted programmes.
It wouldn't have been much different. The Labour Party is the worst social democratic party you could possibly ever choose to try entrism on, because of it is hypocrisy, its relationship with British capitalism world-wide, its countless victims abroad etc.
It's meant to not to work right now. The Labour Left is not needed now, but might be at a later point in time.
There's no such thing as a 'small reformist victory against the Tories' helps store up a firestorm for future generations. Every reformist victory won by reformist tactics, facilitates further backlash from the right - Labour or Tory.
Take Royal Mail, say there's a reformist success and Labour agrees without struggle from below not to privatise and doesn't privatise for the next 5 years (2015-2020), Tories and Right Labour continue along the lines of 'throwing good money after bad', 'benefits must be a fair deal worse than work' 'what have cuts got to do with youth rioting, we were young in 19** we didn't riot'. All that happens is that Royal Mail is made leaner and more suitable for its eventual private sector buyer.
Take something big shooting-the-moon-unlikely, the closure of every single private health facility and their transference to the NHS - the reversal of privatisation. At a guess the private health firms will begin lengthy battles in the courts. The consultant doctors will leave to other anglo countries. The professors at the medical schools will likely do so to, slowing the pace of new supply. Other doctors will begin non-cooperation with the NHS, a professional work-to-rule - effective against. Charities will start offering doctors posts in their institutions, which distribute their consultations on the basis of how much families have contributed to said charity (or simply start locating in middle-class areas without any discriminatory access policy), effectively re-creating the private system. Law judges will allow extreme leniency for said charities etc.
Don't get me wrong, it's the right thing to do, but middle-class people will whip up a backlash from all over:- civil libertarians; professionals from other fields scientists, engineers, academics; 'markets' will point to the drop in GNP (less profitability); Tories; Liberals; Right-wing Labour; parts of the PCS that use private health systems; foreign rich people saying they will now go elsewhere for their super-specialist medical care etc etc.
Labour cannot sustain itself for any significant progressive reformist measure. Even something simple like extending the NHS will not fly, nor will any mass job-creation programme, nor any increase in benefits, nor any mass extension of council housing, nor any restriction of property ownership... none of these measures - when you get down to it - matter a damn in Labour's hands.
Yes Labour wants to win those votes, but also crucially seeks to retain and widen its support from a section of capitalists - the Hinduja brothers, Richard Bransons, Mike Dansons, David Sainsburies, public sector managers and beyond - and, of course, the wider financial investment markets.
'Labour as a dolescum party' - I'd like to hear more on this.
Where I am, where Labour will still win by a mile, the mood is 'they (Labour and Tories) are all as bad as each other, trust no one' or amongst the minority but still there - 'Too many immigrants, need a cap, that'll give us a chance to breathe'.
Labour is invoking this One Nation stuff to undermine them, to paint them as a party of a priviliged minority that seeks to divide people, "Two-Nation Tories" is the label that hurts them the most along with The Nasty Party.
But there's plenty within Labour, Byrne Purnell etc who are unapologetically in favour of just getting into an arms race with the Tories on who can demonise those on benefits the most. Triangulation etc. Right now they're in the cold in a little bit coz David lost and Ed won the leadership, but that'll be very different should Ed Miliband actually get elected.
Left-wing people do austerity and cuts just as well as right wing ones. Tony Benn is very solid proof of that. I don't see why Purnell needs rehabilitation. He's a film producer as well as other things
http://www.screendaily.com/news/pro...eils-future-plans-as-producer/5044367.article
Purnell is a Cruddas-er, and as Cruddas describes it of 1997 there was a coalition within the Labour Party going for New Labour. It wasn't something imposed falling from the moon a Blair'n'Brown hijacking - it was the consensus for Labour. I think the basic Miliband aim will be for as wide a Labour consensus as possible - just Labour no adjectives, the One Labour might not last for the election.
That's not an excuse, that's - at best - an excuse or a reason to resign force new bye-elections and delay the process.
Also finally let's remember that the Tories are good at being anti-cuts too, they won the basis of Labour is making the wrong cuts:
Good posts sihhi and Delroy. I like that kind of analysis.
I think most of the earlier posts saying good things about Owen Jones on Question Time were out of sheer relief that in relative terms (and only that), he's somewhat to the left of the usual mainstream consensus**. Challenging 'benefit scrounger' rhetoric is sadly a pretty leftish thing to do now.
**Not sure too many on here would make any greater claims about him than that though.
I think most of the earlier posts saying good things about Owen Jones on Question Time were out of sheer relief that in relative terms (and only that), he's somewhat to the left of the usual mainstream consensus**. Challenging 'benefit scrounger' rhetoric is sadly a pretty leftish thing to do now.
**Not sure too many on here would make any greater claims about him than that though.
I see Owen Jones is going to be joining Toynbee to help the Fabian's choose 3 policies for the next Labour manifesto.
I'm not sure how that will progress his stated politcs
Is it just that he can't say no to a panel request?
I'm not sure how that will progress his stated politcs
Is it just that he can't say no to a panel request?
Maybe he simply overestimates his own influence?
el-ahrairah
forward communism, forward gerbils!
who can?
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