Batley and Spen by-election

[brogdale]

Let's not.

 

[andysays]

Not again.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Oh, FFS...I'm working class so when I say "our class' I mean working class as in the class we were talking about if you'd actually fucking read what was being discussed instead of just trying to trivialise with your usual shite questioning.

You really are incapable of civility, and as a possessor of a huge store of hubris, hate to be challenged.

You are talking bollocks as usual. Only unreconstructed Marxists still hold on to the concept of 'Working class'. The world has moved on, you haven't.

 

[NoXion]

I think that 'class' as it used to be defined is a dodo.

On your definition, both a CEO and a new apprentice are the same class, as both are involved with 'the means of production'.

No they are not. Have you seen how much CEOs get paid? They could easily choose to retire and live off the millions. But they don't.

 

[killer b]

Only unreconstructed Marxists still hold on to the concept of 'Working class'.

didn't some tory MPs release a report only last week about underachievement among white working class children? Was that report aimed only at unreconstructed marxists?

 

[brogdale]

View attachment 275767

But...comrade, did Mr Rusty own that machinery?

 

[Sasaferrato]

I was being slightly flippant too.

And you're right to remind us that there are differences between habitual Labour voters switching to Tory and long term WC Tories.

I think the thing that prompted this discussion was a quote someone posted from one habitual Labour voter who said they were intending to switch to Tory at this by election, but the whole discussion is worth having, IMO, without reducing it to the level of voters being thick or selfish or anything else which effectively blame the individual.

That attitude by the hard left is a driver of people moving away from Labour.

'The phrases 'You are a thick cunt' and 'Vote for me', well it isn't going to persuade many is it.

The huge problem that the left has, but are not even conscious of it, is that people will not, in general, vote for an ideology, they will vote for specifics. EDIT: There was a time when people would vote for an ideology, and classes were much more defined. The immediate post WWII period was like that that, but then, many many more people worked in manual manufacturing jobs. Times have changed though and though, and definitions with it.

The ridicule that Corbyn and McDonnell engendered was never going to be overcome.

Get Burnham in, get a competent shadow Chancellor appointed, and get your policies out there. Point out where the current government has gone wrong (huge choice there) and how you will fix it.

You can have absolutely pure ideology, withe the concurrent denigration of voters 'who are not pure' or you can be in government, but not both. What do you want?

 

[Sasaferrato]

didn't some tory MPs release a report only last week about underachievement among white working class children? Was that report aimed only at unreconstructed marxists?

You know what I mean.

 

[NoXion]

That attitude by the hard left is a driver of people moving away from Labour.

'The phrases 'You are a thick cunt' and 'Vote for me', well it isn't going to persuade many is it.

Which far left folks have been calling people thick and telling them to vote Labour? I haven't seen the far left do much of either. Or are you getting confused about the far left versus the Labour left?

 

[brogdale]

You know what I mean.

 

[Sasaferrato]

View attachment 275769

Well, in the tenor initiated by you, fuck off and answer my question which was put first, then I may answer yours.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Which far left folks have been calling people thick and telling them to vote Labour? I haven't seen the far left do much of either. Or are you getting confused about the far left versus the Labour left?

voters being thick or selfish or anything else which effectively blame the individual.

 

[andysays]

But...comrade, did Mr Rusty own that machinery?

At the moment I'm more concerned by the fact that I posted what I thought was a GiF and the roundabout isn't going round

 

[andysays]

I think that 'class' as it used to be defined is a dodo.

On your definition, both a CEO and a new apprentice are the same class, as both are involved with 'the means of production'.

Although I've argued above that we shouldn't be dismissing working class Tories as thick, I'm going to make an exception in your case because posts like this demonstrate that you really are a thick cunt

 

[NoXion]

voters being thick or selfish or anything else which effectively blame the individual.

You appear to be quoting andysays who was actually cautioning against doing such as you describe here.

 

[Sasaferrato]

You appear to be quoting andysays who was actually cautioning against doing such as you describe here.

If caution against an action is required, does this not indicate an action extant?

 

[Sasaferrato]

Although I've argued above that we shouldn't be dismissing working class Tories as thick, I'm going to make an exception in your case because posts like this demonstrate that you really are a thick cunt

I only took you off ignore yesterday, back you go you revolting cunt.

 

[NoXion]

If caution against an action is required, does this not indicate an action extant?

No. The folks on the far left are the ones telling the libs/soft left to stop being condescending.

 

[brogdale]

Well, in the tenor initiated by you, fuck off and answer my question which was put first, then I may answer yours.

I did.

Over to you.

 

[brogdale]

I only took you off ignore yesterday, back you go you revolting cunt.

Have refreshments been taken?

 

[andysays]

I only took you off ignore yesterday, back you go you revolting cunt.

I know I haven't done myself what I'm about to suggest, but could we please try to ignore and not respond to any more of Sasaferrato 's idiotic thread derailing contributions

 

[Rimbaud]

n

Yeah, I don't think it is entirely plausible to cast this, and recent by-election results and voting patterns as being a binary "anti-Labour" but not "pro-Tory". The psephological evidence is there; growing numbers of our class are voting for the tories.

Is there any evidence that increasing numbers of working class people of working age are voting Tory, or is it predominantly home-owner retirees combined with a lower turnout from younger working class voters?

 

[Sasaferrato]

Have refreshments been taken?

Nope, just fed up to the back teeth with wankers who cannot be civil. I did not launch an 'ad hom' against the fuckwitted onanist, but he did against me.

I have had a very clear policy of 'don't abuse me, and I won't abuse you' for a long time.

Argue all you like, tell me I'm wrong, that is normal discourse, that shitstain is incapable of that though.

 

[brogdale]

Is there any evidence that increasing numbers of working class people of working age are voting Tory, or is it predominantly home-owner retirees combined with a lower turnout from younger working class voters?

I haven't seen data that differentiates out by age and class, but the 2019 GE (large sample size) post-election polling did show that more working class voters, as defined by the state's own 'Social Grade' criteria, were voting tory:



In 2017, those 2 bottom blue bars were both at 44%.

 

[andysays]

Is there any evidence that increasing numbers of working class people of working age are voting Tory, or is it predominantly home-owner retirees combined with a lower turnout from younger working class voters?

This is the relevant quote from the article posted by Jeff Robinson which took the discussion in this direction.

“My brother was a miner, my dad was a builder, my mam was a barmaid who worked in mills, I was a nurse – you’re not going to vote anybody but Labour, are you?”

Cheryl Rowan, 62, is just the type of voter that the Labour party is desperately trying to hold on to in next week’s byelection in Batley and Spen, and in their former northern heartlands more generally.

She lives in one of a small row of council houses in Heckmondwike, a town formerly known for manufacturing blankets as part of West Yorkshire’s heavy woollen district. That industry is long gone.

“There’s no shoe factories, no textiles, we were a northern powerhouse but now we ain’t got anything but restaurants and a new swimming pool that’s getting built that you can work at, and care … there’s no other jobs,” Rowan says.

She appears to be a council tenant and not yet to have reached retirement age.

(I realise that one example isn't evidence of a wider trend)

 

[Sasaferrato]

I haven't seen data that differentiates out by age and class, but the 2019 GE (large sample size) post-election polling did show that more working class voters, as defined by the state's own 'Social Grade' criteria, were voting tory:

View attachment 275795

In 2017, those 2 bottom blue bars were both at 44%.

E is a bit misleading, many state pensioners are not solely state pensioners, and are quite well off.

 

[Rimbaud]

I haven't seen data that differentiates out by age and class, but the 2019 GE (large sample size) post-election polling did show that more working class voters, as defined by the state's own 'Social Grade' criteria, were voting tory:

View attachment 275795

In 2017, those 2 bottom blue bars were both at 44%.

I think we've been through this before on these forums, but aren't the C2 DE ridiculously outdated descriptors of class now? They have a strong bias towards the sort of manual labour which few people do these days, so again they overrepresent retirees who used to do manual work.

An admin work on temporary contract and minimum wage would be classified as middle class according to those metrics. Working in a call centre is C1.

 

[tim]

At the moment I'm more concerned by the fact that I posted what I thought was a GiF and the roundabout isn't going round

Do you have a problem with the the roundabout withdrawing it's labour?

 

[killer b]

I think we've been through this before on these forums, but aren't the C2 DE ridiculously outdated descriptors of class now? They have a strong bias towards the sort of manual labour which few people do these days, so again they overrepresent retirees who used to do manual work.

An admin work on temporary contract and minimum wage would be classified as middle class according to those metrics. Working in a call centre is C1.

The British Election Study has a different classification, but recorded similar movements of voters.

The Re-shaping Of Class Voting By Geoffrey Evans and Jonathan Mellon - The British Election Study

www.britishelectionstudy.com

 

[brogdale]

I think we've been through this before on these forums, but aren't the C2 DE ridiculously outdated descriptors of class now? They have a strong bias towards the sort of manual labour which few people do these days, so again they overrepresent retirees who used to do manual work.

An admin work on temporary contract and minimum wage would be classified as middle class according to those metrics. Working in a call centre is C1.

I think so; as chilango said upthread, needs so more fine-grained psephology.