Batley and Spen by-election

[Loose meat]

Sure Start was a Labour Government initiative providing childcare support and children's centres which was ended by the Bastard Tories. Not what you are thinking of, I suspect.

I know.

 

[andysays]

I took out my mortgage in 1993. I didn't stop voting Labour. My daughter took out a mortgage about 10 years ago, with her partner. They are both still voting Labour.

So, doesn't always follow....

I don't think anyone has said it always follows.

But I think it's been demonstrated pretty conclusively over the decades that home owners are statistically more like to vote Tory than renters.

 

[Guineveretoo]

I'm not sure the data is granular enough to show that. Rather it's a theory that explains the data that shows older property owners favour the tories - ie, that owning a property outright and living off a pension changes your relationship with the means of production etc, and therefore which party is most aligned with your interests (this doesn't mean all older property owners vote tory - obviously there's plenty who don't, including you and your daughter). There may be other theories that explain this, but it makes reasonable sense to me.

I always think it depends on the intelligence/knowledge of the person, tbh. My father is also a property owner (now in his 90s), and he would never vote Tory. I see that as him not just having a social conscience, but having some intelligence/sense.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I used to work with a bloke who was strongly anti-monarchist, strongly anti-nuclear, staunch atheist. He voted Tory because his Granny had bought her council tax, not even himself. ??????

 

[andysays]

I always think it depends on the intelligence of the person, tbh. My father is also a property owner (now in his 90s), and he would never vote Tory. I see that as him not just having a social conscience, but having some intelligence/sense.

As I've said before, I don't think dismissing working class Tories as less intelligent is a great way to go about understanding the issue, far less winning them back.

 

[Guineveretoo]

I know.

So who is the person with the long name and the headdress who is linked to Sure Start? It was led by Tessa Jowell, who has neither a long name nor a headdress.

I think you mean Camila Batmanghelidjh who had nothing to do with either the Labour Party or Sure Start, but did run organisations called Kids Company and Place2Be, although she didn't wear a headdress. HTH.

 

[killer b]

I always think it depends on the intelligence of the person, tbh. My father is also a property owner (now in his 90s), and he would never vote Tory. I see that as him not just having a social conscience, but having some intelligence/sense.

I don't think this is a very sensible way of thinking about politics or people tbh

 

[Guineveretoo]

I used to work with a bloke who was strongly anti-monarchist, strongly anti-nuclear, staunch atheist. He voted Tory because his Granny had bought her council tax, not even himself. ??????

See? Ignorant

 

[Guineveretoo]

I don't think this is a very sensible way of thinking about politics or people tbh

Have you heard the phrase "ignorance is the root of all evil"? I would say the same about voting Tory....

 

[Guineveretoo]

As I've said before, I don't think dismissing working class Tories as less intelligent is a great way to go about understanding the issue, far less winning them back.

I am not dismissing them. I think it is up to us to educate them!

 

[LDC]

Really? FFS, surely we're beyond that kind of 'analysis' about why people vote (and act) they way they do?

No wonder some people find the left annoying and patronising.

 

[killer b]

I am not dismissing them. I think it is up to us to educate them!

Hey tory voters, stop being so thick and selfish!

 

[Guineveretoo]

Hey tory voters, stop being so thick and selfish!

Sure, that is one way of doing it. There are others.

 

[The39thStep]

The working class voters of 30-odd years ago are paying off their mortgages and settling down to decent pensions now.

About time there was a proper revival of the affluent worker/ embourgeoisement of the working class theories of the 60s and 70s .

 

[Guineveretoo]

Really? FFS, surely we're beyond that kind of 'analysis' about why people vote (and act) they way they do?

No wonder some people find the left annoying and patronising.

I was being slightly flippant, although I do like to think that, once people understand the impact that Tories have on society and the planet, only the most hard-line people would still vote for them.

I don't think I have said anything that could be said to be patronising, but I am assuming that the people in this thread are not in the category being referred to.

I am kind of flattered at being described as being "the left". Most people I know who are on "the left" would not describe me that way, I suspect.

 

[The39thStep]

Hey tory voters, stop being so thick and selfish!

We’ve probably got more people with degrees than at anytime in history

 

[andysays]

About time there was a proper revival of the affluent worker/ embourgeoisement of the working class theories of the 60s and 70s .

It's not a new thing, this WC Tory business.

My grandad, born in 1900 in Aberdeenshire, voted Tory all his life.

But the factors that led hi. to behave like that are u likely to be the same as those applying in this B&S by election (unless Guineveretoo is correct and it really is all about being a thick cunt).

 

[Guineveretoo]

It's not a new thing, this WC Tory business.

My grandad, born in 1900 in Aberdeenshire, voted Tory all his life.

But the factors that led hi. to behave like that are u likely to be the same as those applying in this B&S by election (unless Guineveretoo is correct and it really is all about being a thick cunt).

I have not said that anyone is a thick cunt.

But I thought we were talking about people who had voted Labour all their life but were now changing, rather than the "working class Tories" who have voted that way all their lives...

But I am going offline now, anyway, so talk amongst yourselves.

 

[Loose meat]

So who is the person with the long name and the headdress who is linked to Sure Start? It was led by Tessa Jowell, who has neither a long name nor a headdress.

I think you mean Camila Batmanghelidjh who had nothing to do with either the Labour Party or Sure Start, but did run organisations called Kids Company and Place2Be, although she didn't wear a headdress. HTH.

I was elaborating a point about property owners becoming comfortable. If you missed that, I should have been clearer.

 

[Sasaferrato]

n

Yeah, I don't think it is entirely plausible to cast this, and recent by-election results and voting patterns as being a binary "anti-Labour" but not "pro-Tory". The psephological evidence is there; growing numbers of our class are voting for the tories.

What exactly is 'our class'?

A good %age of Urbanites are graduates, with good income and what would be classed as 'not working class' jobs.

 

[brogdale]

Not again.

 

[Kaka Tim]

I have just completed a house move and taken on a mortgage.
I now suddenly see that Thatcher was right to take firm action to put this country back on track and thanking god that the terrorist supporting peacenik Jeremy corbyn was kept out of number 10.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Not again.

You made a statement, I'm asking you to clarify what you meant.

 

[brogdale]

You made a statement, I'm asking you to clarify what you meant.

Oh, FFS...I'm working class so when I say "our class' I mean working class as in the class we were talking about if you'd actually fucking read what was being discussed instead of just trying to trivialise with your usual shite questioning.

 

[chilango]

Not again.

I know Sass doesn't really count...but told ya so.

No attempt at talking about w/c politics goes by without someone chipping in with that kinda comment.

Usually followed by some property speculating small businessman claiming to be pfwc because their dad lived on a council estate for a bit and they can't get their head round the Costa menu.

 

[NoXion]

You made a statement, I'm asking you to clarify what you meant.

I'm assuming it has more to do with relationship to the means of production, and less to do with wearing flat caps and being Northern.

 

[platinumsage]

You made a statement, I'm asking you to clarify what you meant.

Your proletarian class consciousness has been corrupted and oppressed by the bourgeois mate, don’t blame yourself.

 

[Sue]

I know Sass doesn't really count...but told ya so.

No attempt at talking about w/c politics goes by without someone chipping in with that kinda comment.

Usually followed by some property speculating small businessman claiming to be pfwc because their dad lived on a council estate for a bit and they can't get their head round the Costa menu.

Frothy coffees FTW.

 

[andysays]

I have not said that anyone is a thick cunt.

But I thought we were talking about people who had voted Labour all their life but were now changing, rather than the "working class Tories" who have voted that way all their lives...

But I am going offline now, anyway, so talk amongst yourselves.

I was being slightly flippant too.

And you're right to remind us that there are differences between habitual Labour voters switching to Tory and long term WC Tories.

I think the thing that prompted this discussion was a quote someone posted from one habitual Labour voter who said they were intending to switch to Tory at this by election, but the whole discussion is worth having, IMO, without reducing it to the level of voters being thick or selfish or anything else which effectively blame the individual.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I'm assuming it has more to do with relationship to the means of production, and less to do with wearing flat caps and being Northern.

I think that 'class' as it used to be defined is a dodo.

On your definition, both a CEO and a new apprentice are the same class, as both are involved with 'the means of production'.