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Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth

Of course. Why would I care whether someone think I ought not to eat less butter because saturated fats are bad, or that I shouldn't buy dates from Israel because Palestinians, or that my avocado air miles or too much, or that eggs are only free range and not organic or whatever. I've already made my own decisions on these matters and obviously I know that not everyone will share my opinions. Why should I care what all those other people think or say about my choices :confused:
Bingo. It's called being a grown up.
 
Of course. Why would I care whether someone think I ought not to eat less butter because saturated fats are bad, or that I shouldn't buy dates from Israel because Palestinians, or that my avocado air miles or too much, or that eggs are only free range and not organic or whatever. I've already made my own decisions on these matters and obviously I know that not everyone will share my opinions. Why should I care what all those other people think or say about my choices :confused:
Not "care about", mock, tear apart, tell you you are living wrong without backing it up
 
Not "care about", mock, tear apart, tell you you are living wrong without backing it up

Trying not drinking alcohol. Other people always have opinions about these things, but there's no point in paying them any regard if your own mind is made up. Unless you enjoying fighting back and criticizing their choices in turn of course.
 
It's interesting that this is all viewed through the prism of personal choice - I've looked at the evidence and made my decisions and why should I care about what people think etc - when actually in order to reach net zero carbon emissions we need considerable change to agricultural practices and land use and that likely includes significantly less consumption of meat and dairy on a population basis. It's a public policy issue not a personal preference issue, and at some point in the next couple of decades I suspect that policies will be put in place that shift consumption patterns whether people prefer it or not.
 
The denial is impressive. I'm sure those factory farmed animals are just loving their life.
From the RSPCA The Largest Animal Welfare Charity in the UK | RSPCA
More than 900 million farm animals are reared every year in the UK,

Last year we looked into more than

130,700

complaints about animals suffering
It doesn't say whether that applies to all animals or just farm animals but it works out at 0.015% which is hardly as 'systemic' as many non meat eaters would make out. However that doesn't mean that I think everything is ok in the meat industry and standards should be vastly improved.
 
It's interesting that this is all viewed through the prism of personal choice - I've looked at the evidence and made my decisions and why should I care about what people think etc - when actually in order to reach net zero carbon emissions we need considerable change to agricultural practices and land use and that likely includes significantly less consumption of meat and dairy on a population basis. It's a public policy issue not a personal preference issue, and at some point in the next couple of decades I suspect that policies will be put in place that shift consumption patterns whether people prefer it or not.
Absolutely. And that ought to be the focus of discussion, imo. What systems do we need to change to? What does sustainable farming look like? That's the interesting debate for me.

Seems to me that there are two separate moral questions here - how do we farm sustainably, and how do we farm humanely? The two can get mixed up, but they're not the same question.
 
From the RSPCA The Largest Animal Welfare Charity in the UK | RSPCA



It doesn't say whether that applies to all animals or just farm animals but it works out at 0.015% which is hardly as 'systemic' as many non meat eaters would make out. However that doesn't mean that I think everything is ok in the meat industry and standards should be vastly improved.
So you're of the opinion that there is no cruelty involved in factory farming?

Strange then that a new study revealed that:

...as many as eight in ten people are concerned US-style industrial farming is on the increase in the UK. Almost 40 per cent said intensive pig and chicken farms should be banned outright.

Animal welfare was cited as the top reason for concern, although almost half were also concerned about the environmental impact of these industrial facilities. Phosphate, nitrogen and ammonia pollution from pig and chicken units can cause serious damage to river habitats. Meanwhile demand for animal feed is fuelling deforestation around the world.
 
It's interesting that this is all viewed through the prism of personal choice - I've looked at the evidence and made my decisions and why should I care about what people think etc - when actually in order to reach net zero carbon emissions we need considerable change to agricultural practices and land use and that likely includes significantly less consumption of meat and dairy on a population basis. It's a public policy issue not a personal preference issue, and at some point in the next couple of decades I suspect that policies will be put in place that shift consumption patterns whether people prefer it or not.
So you don't think personal consumer choice has any impact on national trends? How do you explain the immense increase in vegan products being offered for sale, and the huge growth in non dairy milk?
 
Not just pigs and chickens. Cow 'feedlot' farming has started in the UK as well. All this is pretty recent and hugely wrong and horrible. Absolutely needs to be stopped, both for cruelty and sustainability reasons, but for cruelty reasons in particular.

We need to rethink farming from the bottom up.
 
Shouldn't exaggerate the scale of non-dairy milk sales, though. Yes, they've gone up, but they're still a small fraction (5% or so) of dairy milk sales, which are not going down. And that's not including all the other dairy products - butter, cheese, yoghurt.

milk-retail-sales-value-united-kingdom-uk.jpg


UK%20dairy%20alternative%20market.png
 
Shouldn't exaggerate the scale of non-dairy milk sales, though. Yes, they've gone up, but they're still a small fraction (5% or so) of dairy milk sales, which are not going down. And that's not including all the other dairy products - butter, cheese, yoghurt.

milk-retail-sales-value-united-kingdom-uk.jpg


UK%20dairy%20alternative%20market.png
I didn't think I was exaggerating it, but with almost a quarter of British people now drinking non-dairy milks, and UK sales up 28%, I'd describe that as a huge growth - and given its popularity witrh younger people I can see that increase continuing in the future.

It wasn't that long ago I'd be lucky to find a single non-milk alternative in shops, now there's a huge range of non dairy choices available.

lant milks are no longer fringe. Just over one in 10 of Pret a Manger’s hot drinks in the UK are ordered with dairy alternative milks (organic soya milk or organic rice-coconut milk). According to research firm Mintel, UK plant milk sales have grown by 30% since 2015, buoyed by a surge in vegan and vegetarian diets. In the US, nearly half of all shoppers now add a plant milk to their baskets. Globally, the industry is estimated to be worth $16bn.

Meanwhile, reduced demand for cow’s milk and falling prices led to the closure of 1,000 dairy farms in the UK between 2013 and 2016. Milk’s reputation as a healthy food is under threat from anxieties about bovine antibiotics, animal cruelty and the industry’s environmental impact, as well as increased diagnosis of lactose intolerance. Teenagers now consider cow’s milk less healthy than plant milk alternatives, a development the former chairman of Dairy UK, David Dobbin, called “a demographic time bomb”.

“Consumers are really not sure about the dairy industry,” Caroline Roux, a dairy analyst at Mintel, told me. “They’re not convinced these products are good for them any more.”
 
So you don't think personal consumer choice has any impact on national trends? How do you explain the immense increase in vegan products being offered for sale, and the huge growth in non dairy milk?
No I do think that individual action is playing and will play a part in this shift towards a more sustainable diet. My point was more about how people (generally the meat/dairy defenders) have been discussing this topic on this thread - viewing it as primarily a matter of personal choice. And indeed the title of the thread puts it in the context of a personal carbon footprint, when I think it's much more sensible to examine carbon reduction on a collective scale - society as a whole has to make these tough decisions. We won't get to net zero purely by encouraging people to make the right decision in the marketplace, whether that's on diet or transport or home heating.
 
Dubious, unsubstantiated claims in that article about the health benefits of cutting out dairy. Milk has a lot of good stuff in it. I mean I know it's newsbeat, so it's aimed at children, but still, even more important not to mislead children.

Nice bit of free advertising on the BBC for the bloke selling plant drinks, though, the one making most of the unsubstantiated health benefit claims.
 
Cow's milk is for baby cows! and there are issues with dairy and health
 
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Cow's milk is for baby cows! and there re issues with dairy and health
Interesting to note that it's only relatively very recently that humans have started drinking the stuff.

With the continuing rise of tasty non-cruel alternatives, maybe it's fall from favour will be as as swift as its rise (and the quicker tasty non-dairy cheese becomes available, the better!)


Even in northern Europe, milk as we know it is a recent phenomenon. Fresh milk, left unrefrigerated, spoils quickly and can harbour a variety of deadly pathogens, including E Coli and tuberculosis. For most of history it was either consumed within moments of milking, or processed as cheese or yoghurt.

Few drunk milk in its liquid form.

“The Romans considered it a sign of barbarism,” said Mark Kurlansky, author of Milk! A 10,000-Year Food Fracas. “The only people who drank milk were people on farms, because they were the only ones who could get it fresh enough.”

(Even then, cow’s milk was considered inferior to alternatives such as goat or donkey.) In the 19th century, “swill milk” – so called because cows were fed the filthy runoff from inner-city breweries, turning their milk blue – was linked with thousands of infant deaths.

Only in the early 20th century, with the introduction of mandatory pasteurisation – in which milk is heated to kill off any bacteria before bottling – did milk become safe enough for most people to drink regularly.

 
Over about 10,000 years.


Being fair, "relatively recently" is fair comment if we're talking about human evolutionary time, and I'm a biologist by training, so don't have a problem with it as such, but by most timescales of thinking about stuff (especially like food choices), it could be a little misleading without providing some numbers for context.
 
We've been drinking milk long enough that the human populations involved have made evolutionary adaptations.
Except:
Overall, about 65% of people experience some form of lactose intolerance as they age past infancy, but there are significant differences between populations and regions; rates are as low as 5% among northern Europeans and as high as over 90% of adults in some communities of Asia.

Call me back when people have evolved to tolerate Quorn better.
Do people put Quorn in their tea then? :confused:
 
:D

I thought the penny had dropped for a second, but there was no second sentence...
This is such a familiar tactic from you. When your argument falls apart you - and usually a predictable tiny handful of nodding sidekicks - just do your best to disrupt the thread and belittle the debate.

Not happening today though. You can go fuck yourself :D
 
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