Australia buys nuclear subs au us uk pact

[likesfish]

Hurrah war with china
BBC News - Aukus: UK, US and Australia launch pact to counter China

Aukus: UK, US and Australia launch pact to counter China

Beijing says the deal, involving nuclear-powered submarines, undermines regional peace.

www.bbc.co.uk

Australia has bitten the bullet and decided to buy nuclear powered submarines. They had the largest ever conventionally powered subs and were going to replace them with a version of the new french nuclear sub with a non nuclear powerplant! From an engineering point of view this was a bloody stupid idea. As nobody builds non nuclear oceon crossing subs anymore

 

[skyscraper101]

France must be pretty pissed off about this thats a €30 billion cancelled order. And only a day or so after the cancelled €1.4 Billion vaccine deal with the U.K.

 

[Pickman's model]

Hurrah war with china
BBC News - Aukus: UK, US and Australia launch pact to counter China

Aukus: UK, US and Australia launch pact to counter China

Beijing says the deal, involving nuclear-powered submarines, undermines regional peace.

www.bbc.co.uk

Australia has bitten the bullet and decided to buy nuclear powered submarines. They had the largest ever conventionally powered subs and were going to replace them with a version of the new french nuclear sub with a non nuclear powerplant! From an engineering point of view this was a bloody stupid idea. As nobody builds non nuclear oceon crossing subs anymore

They can't have watched vigil before signing

 

[Chz]

Wow, that's quite an expense for an economy the size of Australia's. Even Canada rejected nukes (they wanted to patrol under the ice cap) due to the costs involved, and that's a ~20% larger economy.
Obviously it can be done or Russia wouldn't have any, but can they afford anything else in their navy afterwards?

 

[Humberto]

A worsening of relations and an arms race? Still, good to see where our rulers are at whilst we are facing global climate catastrophe.

 

[Yossarian]

Better than letting a fascist state expand its power in the region unopposed, IMO.

 

[Humberto]

In the short term.

 

[DownwardDog]

As nobody builds non nuclear oceon crossing subs anymore

The Japanese Soryu class has a 12,000km range.

I'll be amazed if this ever happens because building a nuclear navy from scratch is expensive and takes decades. At some point the Greens will have the balance of power in the HoR/Senate and will try to blow it all up.

 

[kebabking]

ow, that's quite an expense for an economy the size of Australia's. Even Canada rejected nukes (they wanted to patrol under the ice cap) due to the costs involved, and that's a ~20% larger economy.
Obviously it can be done or Russia wouldn't have any, but can they afford anything else in their navy afterwards?

The heavy money is on the nuclear boats costing more (just) upfront, but that the existing French deal's projected costs were skyrocketing, and still being hugely compromised diesel/electric boats.

The fundamental crux is that the original Australian requirement screamed out 'nuclear propulsion', but for domestic political in reasons that got brushed under the carpet, and France and Australia agreed to re-engineer an existing nuclear powered sub design with a diesel electric power system. astonishingly, it's not proved easy/cheap, and there have been all manner of problems within the wider contract, not least timings, money, work share, tech transfer...

It appears as if the Aussies want the UK PWR3 reactor and something that will look a bit/lot like the Astute class of RN subs - one of the things they like has been the RN's development of automation and lean manning: the RN subs use about 2/3rd's the crew if the US subs, and the RN aircraft carriers use about a quarter of the manning of the US carriers, despite being 75% of the size.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

The Japanese Soryu class has a 12,000km range.

I'll be amazed if this ever happens because building a nuclear navy from scratch is expensive and takes decades. At some point the Greens will have the balance of power in the HoR/Senate and will try to blow it all up.

Not literally, I hope?

 

[Supine]

France must be pretty pissed off about this thats a €30 billion cancelled order. And only a day or so after the cancelled €1.4 Billion vaccine deal with the U.K.

seems like a lot of money for a tube with a propeller stuck on the back

 

[DownwardDog]

The heavy money is on the nuclear boats costing more (just) upfront, but that the existing French deal's projected costs were skyrocketing, and still being hugely compromised diesel/electric boats.

The fundamental crux is that the original Australian requirement screamed out 'nuclear propulsion', but for domestic political in reasons that got brushed under the carpet, and France and Australia agreed to re-engineer an existing nuclear powered sub design with a diesel electric power system. astonishingly, it's not proved easy/cheap, and there have been all manner of problems within the wider contract, not least timings, money, work share, tech transfer...

It appears as if the Aussies want the UK PWR3 reactor and something that will look a bit/lot like the Astute class of RN subs - one of the things they like has been the RN's development of automation and lean manning: the RN subs use about 2/3rd's the crew if the US subs, and the RN aircraft carriers use about a quarter of the manning of the US carriers, despite being 75% of the size.

The PWR3 is really just a rebranded American S9G so they might as well have the original.

They'd be mad to choose Astute over the Block 5 Virginia as the US boat carries about 4x the weapons and has the versatility of the VPM. Also one has been built in a run of 7 and the other in a run of 66 with all that implies for cost and risk.

 

[kebabking]

he PWR3 is really just a rebranded American S9G so they might as well have the original.

They'd be mad to choose Astute over the Block 5 Virginia as the US boat carries about 4x the weapons and has the versatility of the VPM. Also one has been built in a run of 7 and the other in a run of 66 with all that implies for cost and risk.

Virginia also much bigger, and much more expensive.

5 Astutes have been built, with four in service and one on sea trials.

The Aussies will almost certainly go for something that's got bits (whether components or design philosophies) of both: they are pretty unlikely to go for a Virginia 2.0.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

If I were the Aussies I'd just tell the British and Americans that we'd made some blinders of our own, really stealthy and that, which is why you can't see 'em.

 

[Idris2002]

The Japanese Soryu class has a 12,000km range.

I'll be amazed if this ever happens because building a nuclear navy from scratch is expensive and takes decades. At some point the Greens will have the balance of power in the HoR/Senate and will try to blow it all up.

The Greens, a party famous for sticking to their radical political roots, and effectively challenging the madness of late capitalist heteropatriarchal militarism. This, surely, will be the political force that will shove a spanner in the Aussie nuke power works.

(or maybe it's different in Ozland?)

 

[maomao]

What's health and safety like on nuclear subs and what are cancer rates/other illnesses among ex crew?

 

[Idris2002]

What's health and safety like on nuclear subs and what are cancer rates/other illnesses among ex crew?

I used to know an ex-firefighter who had a mate on the nuke subs, or so he told me. According to this guy, his mate had had a couple of hale and hearty kids who were not born with two heads or anything of that ilk.

 

[A380]

Virginia also much bigger, and much more expensive.

5 Astutes have been built, with four in service and one on sea trials.

The Aussies will almost certainly go for something that's got bits (whether components or design philosophies) of both: they are pretty unlikely to go for a Virginia 2.0.

Presumably the cheapest and simplest option would be to either buy Virginia or Astute copies and perhaps build the hulls in Adelaide for domestic reasons.

So like any military / government project my money’s on Astute hulls but fitted out with US comm/sensors weapon systems for maximum complexity and delay with a massive row between Rolls Royce and General Electric’s lobbyists for the reactor.

 

[Chz]

What's health and safety like on nuclear subs and what are cancer rates/other illnesses among ex crew?

They're probably safer than civil power stations. Non-Russian ones, at any rate. On a pure numbers basis, the USN has more experience running PW nuclear reactors than anyone else in the world.

 

[agricola]

I assume, given our Government's record in negotiations, that the UK will end up with the spent fuel and decommissioning?

 

[T & P]

I used to know an ex-firefighter who had a mate on the nuke subs, or so he told me. According to this guy, his mate had had a couple of hale and hearty kids who were not born with two heads or anything of that ilk.

They did glow in the dark a bit, but the parents didn’t mind that as it made finding the kids at night a doddle.

 

[maomao]

I used to know an ex-firefighter who had a mate on the nuke subs, or so he told me. According to this guy, his mate had had a couple of hale and hearty kids who were not born with two heads or anything of that ilk.

I don't think birth defects due to germ cell mutation are a symptom of long-term low dose radiation exposure.

There's probably no public domain info for recent decades anyway.

 

[Sprocket.]

What's health and safety like on nuclear subs and what are cancer rates/other illnesses among ex crew?

There are reports online from various governments that state there is an increased risk of bone cancer and bladder cancer in those who have served on nuclear powered, as well as nuclear armed vessels.

 

[maomao]

They're probably safer than civil power stations. Non-Russian ones, at any rate. On a pure numbers basis, the USN has more experience running PW nuclear reactors than anyone else in the world.

Experience is experience but submarine crew don't have a union.

 

[Sprocket.]

As an aside to this tripartite pact, I surmise the well angered French will now do their utmost to prevent asylum seekers heading for the English Channel. Or not.

 

[DownwardDog]

The Greens, a party famous for sticking to their radical political roots, and effectively challenging the madness of late capitalist heteropatriarchal militarism. This, surely, will be the political force that will shove a spanner in the Aussie nuke power works.

(or maybe it's different in Ozland?)

The Australian Greens will bitterly oppose the SSNs and are arch opportunists when it comes to exploiting the position of power their presence in HoR and Senate gives them. We will have a HoR/Half Senate election next May and it would only take a few seats going from Coalition to Labor to give the Greens the power to put a Labor government in.

 

[Idris2002]

The Australian Greens will bitterly oppose the SSNs and are arch opportunists when it comes to exploiting the position of power their presence in HoR and Senate gives them. We will have a HoR/Half Senate election next May and it would only take a few seats going from Coalition to Labor to give the Greens the power to put a Labor government in.

But with so much riding on this one, isn't it more likely that these arch opportunists will taken aside for a "quiet word", in the course of which they are "made an offer they can't refuse"?

 

[T & P]

What's the betting that China will now further increase its military resources and presence in the region to counter this move?

And unlike the USSR, I really don't think a new Cold War and constant escalation of military development is going to be much of a financial tipping point issue for the Chinese.

 

[DownwardDog]

They're probably safer than civil power stations. Non-Russian ones, at any rate. On a pure numbers basis, the USN has more experience running PW nuclear reactors than anyone else in the world.

They've operated over 100 reactors for nearly 70 years without an accident.

The US Nuclear Navy is unashamedly elitist and is reserved for the best and brightest. The NPS course for officers is 80 hours a week of brain melting maths and if you fail you get charged with dereliction of duty!

 

[kebabking]

Experience is experience but submarine crew don't have a union.

There's lots of experience of former mil personnel winning court cases and political campaigns against their former employers for health problems...

I have no idea as to whether there is, or is not a problem with nuclear boats, but given they've been around since the 1950's for the US and Russia, and 1960 in the UK, I think that if there was a significant issue, we'd probably have heard about it by now.

(Maybe I haven't heard about it - it wouldn't surprise me if there had been a problem given the tech at the time...)