Athens Greece: Cops murder a 16 year old

[Dimitris]

Oh now you discovered America. You managed to find a secret policeman .... This is the problem that KKE had for years when it was outlawed wasn't it ? Even now on occasions there are secret policemen in YOUR DEMOS aren't there ? For example this guy that you managed to point out .... http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=1185069 I am pretty sure that there are hundreds of examples like that because this is how greek police works. If you bother reading this thread (it is a bit long I admit) you will read me describing secret police actions within December 2008 demos and riots, I have even posted photos of evidence with men wearing full face masks to get organized together with policemen BEFORE demos.

Saying that there are secret policemen hiding among us on occasions is true, in a lot of occasions we have understood them and their activity and they have been beaten up during demos, saying that ALL THE ANARCHIST MOVEMENT are "provocateurs" and " para state thugs" is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

If we are a "para state organization" so why does the police use so many resources on trying to arrest us ? Why Exarchia is daily full of secret policemen ? Why all comrades that have been imprisoned had been denied even their basic rights ? Why do they get imprisoned in the first place ? Why the police even tries to plant fake evidence to any of us, if they are lucky to detain one ?

Oh and I do not compare OAKEE or DEN PLIRONO with PAME the only thing I ask is why these demonstrators were not allowed to enter the square. You did not answer about the rest of GSEE, POE - OTA, taxi drivers or even EEK... are those "creations" as well ? Do not tell me that they were there, because I will show you photos with their banners far away from the square, while the riots were taking place. HOW WILL ANYONE APPROACH THE SQUARE WHEN YOU BLOCK THE ROAD EXACTLY IN FRONT OF GREAT BRITANNIA HOTEL ? teleportation ?

So let me get this straight... Your theory is that DEN PLIRONO (I don't pay) had arranged with anarchists that they will confront PAME first and then anarchists will attack ? If you have so wild imagination, write a novel, it will become best seller.

There were not riots so the police should not interfere ? The whole place had turned to a warezone and you call that "no riots" ? I have seen the police spraying big parts of demos with chemicals just because a couple of plastic bottles were thrown, and you call that "no riots" ?

OK change the word "members" with a better one when talking about PAME, the result is the same really. You may have noticed that my english on occasions are a bit simplistic, I am better writing in english about entomopathogenic fungi rather than political documents.

 

[where to]

what are opinion polls saying these days for Greece, particularly the far left & right?

 

[papageorgiou12]

Because pictures are worth a thousand words, here are some samples of the "revolutionary" activities of Dimitris' "anarchist" friends:



A hooded thug attacking an older PAME demonstrator with a hammer!



A hooded thug (with gas mask and full-body fireproof attire) attacking an unarmed PAME demonstrator with police-issue baton!



A Molotov cocktail thrown by the thugs in the midst of the PAME demonstration!

 

[Dimitris]

According to a company called Public Issue for October 2011 :

Nea Dimokratia (New Democracy, conservative) : 31,5 %
LAOS (far right) : 9%
Democratic Coalition (neoliberal) : 2%
PASOK (current government,) : 22,5 %
KKE (communist party) : 10,5 %
Democratic Left (reformist former SYRIZA members) : 5%
SYRIZA (reformist left) : 10,8 %
Green party : 3%

But also for the same company the following results :

Better Prime Minister

Nobody : 47%
Samaras : 28% (conservative)
Papandreou : 22% (current prime minister)
Both : 1%
I do not know : 3%

Better Government for the country :

None of the 2 : 73%
New Democracy : 11%
PASOK : 11%

SYRIZA (reformist left) and LAOS (far right) seem to get the bigger advantage so far. Also the "democratic left" party, gets about 5%, they are a completely new party, if you add up SYRIZA and democratic left it gets nearly up to 15%, which is significant.The current government is dropping but New Democracy does not earn that many votes because of that, the communists remain about the same (10,5 %).

The point is that the publicity of the leaders of the main 2 political parties is dropping a lot as well, therefore it is possible that this may effect the opinion polls even further during the next months or so. There are thoughts in Greece that we may see the 2 parties (or even more) to start forming coalitions and changing their presidents so they can get better rates and manage to form a government during the next elections whenever these may be. I believe that pretty soon we will have elections, the current government does not seem that it will stand any longer.

This is just 1 opinion poll from one company, normally there are variations between them but you get a rough idea.

 

[papageorgiou12]

what are opinion polls saying these days for Greece, particularly the far left & right?

One of the latest opinion polls (percentages are adjusted to the valid votes):


The order of the parties as shown on the graph:

PASOK ("socialist" - the party in government)
ND (the main "conservative" party)
KKE (Communist Party of Greece)
LAOS (ultra right-wing, xenophobic party)
SYRIZA (a coalition of opportunist, ex-maoist, trotskyist, etc groupings)
ECOLOGISTS
DHSY (a splinter group of ND)
DHMAR (a splinter group of SYRIZA to its right)
ANTARSYA (a leftist coalition)
XRYSI AVGI (a far right, fascist formation)
ARMA POLITON (a splinter group of PASOK)

 

[papageorgiou12]

According to a company called Public Issue for October 2011 :

KKE (communist party) : 10,5 %

SYRIZA (reformist left) : 10,8 %

So now you are manipulating numbers as well? Here is the actual chart of the "Public Issue" opinion poll:



Note that SYRIZA is at 9,5% and NOT at 10,8%! A very convenient manipulation to show it surpassing KKE. In your dreams!!

 

[DrRingDing]

We have a live one!

 

[peterkro]

A bloody patronising one as well.

 

[Dimitris]

If you want to play this "game" here we go.

PAME clearly defends

The guy that you see here is then pushed of that roof (that is a roof that you see) at about 3 meters gap. He hit on his head while landing and is now in serious condition in hospital.

This guy that you see here is one of the PAME leaders, Giannis Manousogiannakis, the one that gave the command for the attack

Here he is again in action :

He is now supposed to be a worker at the port of Pireaus, before doing this job though, he was working at the ships and was a personal guard of Pavlos Vardinogiannis one of the biggest capitalists in Greece. You see his own stick does not even have a flag, he is also holding it from the other side, the thick part of the stick is the one that hits.

Here he is grabbing a woman

Personally I was about 10 meters behind that woman.

About the petrol bombs, if you bother reading my posts more carefully you will see that I have already written that I did not like them. PAME attack had to be defended but in my opinion petrol bombs were not needed, just maybe better organization of the black block.

The old man that you show, what was he doing running behind the "protection" basically attacking with them ? Unfortunately I also remember a petrol bomb landing very close to him.

Finally because your general secretary, mrs Papariga, was talking about anarcho fascists to everyone... The only a few (I do not think they were more than 20 anyway) fascists that we managed to spot, way back before the square, they were chased and disappeared.

What your "protection forces" managed to do, as well as you personally in this thread, is to draw the attention of anyone from the actual problem and the REAL enemy, that are this government and the current situation and keep talking about the riots. There were also riots on Wednesday but nearly nobody speaks about them, everybody speaks about the massive turn out of people. For Thursday though, the situation is different.

Also the fact that MEGA CHANNEL as well as ETHNOS newspaper are supporting PAME's actions so much has its own significance. Do not forget that these are pro government media, all belonging to PEGASUS company, a company owned by Vardinogiannis and Bobolas. Maybe you thought that in this way, you will twist the public's perception towards KKE, by the way that the events of that day are presented in the media ?

Therefore I ask you, honestly, what would be the problem if the situation was similar to Wednesday ? When PAME was there as well, NOTHING happened while PAME was there and whatever happened, happened ONLY after PAME left .... Why you needed to be blocking all the roads to the parliament since 9 o clock in the morning ? Why for hours you stopped a number of blocks of people that wanted to get on the square, telling them that if they wanted to pass they would pass WITHOUT their banners or formed as a block themselves ? Because you wanted to appear them all as PAME and KKE demonstrators maybe ? Why PAME did the same on a number of cities all over Greece, like Giannena, "circulating" public buildings and not letting other demonstrators approach ?

 

[Dimitris]

Yes I made an 1% mistake, punish me to death now I did not think to copy paste the whole graph because it was in greek, I was just switching from tab to tab. I think the REALLY important thing on that graph is not the perception of people towards any party but the 34% that says that they will not vote. This shows that people do not trust the current political parties any more, ALL OF THEM.

Some other graphs from the same website :

The biggest problem of the country. First comes economy, second unemployment and THIRD the political parties. Now look at the red arrow to see how much has the "political parties" option increased since 2010.

Political parties public acceptance. The blue bar is positive, the red is negative. Generally the vast majority has a negative opinion for all parties, but LAOS (far right) and SYRIZA (reformist left) come first in positives, then comes KKE and then New Democracy (conservative) and finally PASOK (current government)

Politicians public acceptance. These are the presidents of each political party. Again red is negative opinion, blue is positive, Karatzaferis of LAOS (far right nationalists) comes first on positives, Tsipras of SYRIZA second, Samaras of New Democracy third, Papariga of KKE 4th and finally Papandreou the current prime minister.

 

[papageorgiou12]

Two brief comments on your ad-nauseum repeated allegations:

1. All the pictures that you show are either after the initial unprovoked attack by the "anarchist" thugs on the PAME demonstration, when the attackers were being chased and (yes!) dealt with as it was fit to do. To remind everyone, these "peaceful anarchists" had pelted unarmed workers, including women, with large pieces of marble and stones (that, apparently, Dimitris considers as appropriate weapons against demonstrators). The woman that you show acted as a clear provocatrice, approaching Manousogiannakis, in an obvious attempt to get beaten up and arouse discontent.

2. During the first or second day of the strike, after PAME had left the square, why didn't you and your "anarchist" buddies try to storm the parliament building? Why did you have to do that when the workers' demonstration was taking place? Do you really think that you can storm the parliament with stones and sticks and a bunch of 300-400 people? And let's suppose that you do. What comes next? Do you think that the government and the bourgeoisie of the country will peacefully surrender and not use every available means (including the military) to eradicate you off the face of the earth? If you believe that, you must be extremely naive. I don't think you do, BUT your real purpose in these cat and mouse games with the police is to break-up demonstrations and weaken the movement. That is why you are working hand-in-hand with the state and form an integral part of its machinery.

P.S Regarding the opinion poll, I think your mistake was on purpose, intended to show your favorite SYRIZA party above KKE. For 2 main reasons: a) SYRIZA has been sheltering your "anarcho-police" buddies for a long time and b) you basically share with SYRIZA the same reformist perception on what the movement should do. If you didn't, you wouldn't be drooling about the 5% that the poll gives to the ultra-reformist DIMAR party.

 

[where to]

cheers for info to both of you. v interesting.

 

[Dimitris]

ROFLMAO

You are really so predictable mate. I mean, seriously, if I wanted to read that I could buy your pravda, Rizospastis, instead of wasting my time posting on the boards. I feel like I am speaking with a flock of sheep, with "cut and paste" ready arguments for everything instead of engaging in any kind of political debate. The same argument all the time over and over again, that SYRIZA has been sheltering anarchists and the same crap. On page 3 in this very topic, on 9th of December 2008, while I was talking about the demos of 2008 I was writing :

" Our government as well as other rightwing and far right parties (like LAOS) are actively trying to involve SYRIZA with the demos and the riots, saying that on purpose they let anarchists to be within syriza blocks, but also that some of the parties that are in syriza, are "revolutionary" parties who take place in riots etc. It is STUPID to suggest that us, as anarchists, we wait some parliamentary party to "control" our actions in the demos... If this debate takes place on the TV news, is because SYRIZA are good to capitalize public acceptance from such situations and their rates are rizing, something that the others dont like."

You see how easily the lies of the far right (LAOS) can also be said by KKE .... Maybe you should look at that in Perissos, this is not the only occasion that you use exactly the same arguments as LAOS ....

Btw yes I admit, I changed the percentage of SYRIZA on purpose but NOT for the reasons that you think and write but because I WAS COMPLETELY SURE THAT YOU WOULD WRITE EXACTLY THAT. It just took you 2 posts in order to write it and not 1 as I was expecting. I was also expecting something else.... That you would not comment ANYTHING about the fact that the MAJORITY of the people turn their backs on ALL POLITICAL PARTIES but you would moan about your 1% ..... Have you ever wondered, the 10% OF HOW MANY PEOPLE ? How many will actually go the next elections in order to vote ? You are just happy with the percentages as far as they are over the ones of SYRIZA without even evaluating THAT ?

Something else also. Have you ever imagined that the whole world does not spin around KKE and PAME ? Have you ever thought that that woman was actually arguing about her right to demonstrate freely in the streets of Athens, instead of thinking that her action was a staged provocation against PAME ?

You say "when the attackers were being chased and (yes!) dealt with as it was fit to do.. At least now, after 100 posts you ADMIT that you attacked, because if someone would read your first initial post he would understand that there was no attack by your side... If I go on further posting photos and links in this thread, you will also then admit that some of PAME's "protection" came from Voukourestiou str to the back of all the rest, surrounding the demonstrators and THEN THEY STARTED HITTING RANDOMLY WHOEVER THEY WERE FINDING IN FRONT OF THEM, EVEN IF THE GIVEN PERSONS WERE NOT PARTICIPATING IN ANY RIOTS BUT WERE JUST TRYING TO LEAVE. This is when the most of the incidents that I post on these photos took place, EXACTLY LIKE MAT (RIOT POLICE) YOU ATTACK THE MOST VULNERABLE ONES AS THESE ARE THE EASIER TARGET.

I am not going to answer your questions about storming in the parliament etc if you do not answer mine first. Because the only thing that you do since the time that you came here on these boards is to post your statements and conclusions instead of engaging in a discussion.

Finally something else that maybe you should consider in your political analysis ... if you ever do any, and don't just repeat what your pravda and Perissos is saying.

In that opinion poll they also asked if the person had ever taken part in any demonstration... Here is the chart in monthly basis

Apparently the most people appeared on demos during July, EXACTLY BECAUSE THEY JOINED THE DEMOS IN THE PARLIAMENT SQUARE THAT WERE NOT ORGANIZED BY ANY SPECIFIC POLITICAL MOVEMENT OR PARTY. BAsically THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT YOUR "CIRCULATION" OF THE SQUARE PROHIBITED TO ENTER.

Do you ever think that your party will ever exceed the 10% while you act like that ? How do you think that KKE will get in power anyway ?

 

[papageorgiou12]

It is really interesting that you, an "anarchist", is so mesmerized with opinion polls and percentages. You somehow want to imply that the large percentage of people that appear to be apathetic towards elections and political parties and that are saying that they are not going to vote in the next elections are being represented by your "anarchist" bunch. Keep dreaming! If that were the case, then the USA would be the country with the largest anarchist following in the world, more than 50% of the population.

It is true that many people, mostly ex-voters of PASOK, participated in the June-July "non-party" demonstrations. It was probably their first ever time in the streets, and, in this respect, it was positive. BUT (and this is crucial) the lack of any definite political direction in these gatherings, the absence of a real movement for radical change, a movement that would be grounded first and foremost in the factories and the workplaces, has made them retreat from the streets. Many of them took part once again in the 48-hour strike, intermingled with the PAME demonstrators in the upper part of the square. They were obviously not prevented by PAME from doing so, since most of them arrived in the square not as organized blocks, but as individuals.

There are no "questions" of yours that have not been answered. The PAME forces counterattacked when they were attacked first. The protection of demonstrations against thugs and paramilitary goons is a long tradition of the labor movement worldwide and it does involve violence against the attackers. There was no violence against other demonstrators that were not previously involved in attacks against PAME and its peaceful march.

Why don't you explain to everyone on this board why you and your "anarchist" buddies initiated the attack on the PAME forces with marble stones, rocks, Molotov cocktails, stun grenades, even tear gas? Do you consider these appropriate means to solve political differences?

Anyway, the recent events in Athens have served to decisively unmask the role of provocateur played by the so-called "black block". There is evidence appearing that, besides the usual cohort of your block, this time it was strengthened by the addition of a contingent of soccer hooligans and a sizable "brigade" of state security thugs.

 

[papageorgiou12]

Here is a very revealing video showing the massive PAME demonstrations on the 19th and the 20th that some (like Dimitris) wanted us to "evaporate" in thin air so that their miniscule groups could take center stage. It is subtitled in English.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHMLD_Vql0o&feature=player_embedded

 

[Dimitris]

Because my answer is rather long (over 10,000 characters) I need to cut it to 2 pieces.

Personally I always look at opinion polls and I study them. In a lot of occasions they do not portrait the true opinion of the public but you can understand a lot of things if you study them. With this opinion poll I understand that the most of the people turn their back to all political parties.

Of course I am not so naive to think that all these are anarchists as you say so. I never do so simplistic political analysis, maybe KKE does so but not me. What I do understand is that the majority of the greek population is fed up with our current political scene and are looking for an alternative. An alternative that none of the current parliamentary or non parliamentary parties can give including KKE. This is not "political apathy" that KKE and you personally are saying, this is a clear political statement. The fact that this statement does not fit within your framework and ideology it does not mean that this is not a political action. The gathered people in parliament square for the whole summer were talking in their assemblies (I was present in a number of them) about self organization in non hierarchical directly democratic ways that is a very specific political statement that you reject just because it does not fit within your boundaries. That is the problem with KKE, that whatever that is not in your line it is immediately wrong and provocative.

Now I will deal with your lies about the events once and for all.

Your video is even more edited that the video of DEN PLIRONO, as if you can understand anything with that.

I will show you and to the rest of the people here a different video. Unfortunately it has no subtitles.

http://www.youtube.com/user/va8ikokkino#p/u/12/RDDQAMhQr18

This video has 2 parts. On the first part you see the vice president of the government saying that the police did not interfere because they did not believe that it was needed to, up to a point the PAME protection was doing fine and then when it was needed they did interfere. Nothing strange with that, this is what the official government response would be.
On the second part of the video though the guy that you see speaking to the female journalist is a member of PAME. He says that PAME asked from the police not to get involved because as he says the police would spray chemicals and there would be more trouble and so on. You understand what this guy is saying ? That PAME HAD COMMUNICATION WITH THE POLICE. THAT THE POLICE ASKED PAME IF PAME WANTED THEM TO GET INVOLVED.

Since when does the police ask a group of demonstrators if they wanted them to act ? So the police sees 2 groups of people attacking each other, sees the whole area turning to a ware zone with flares, stones, petrol bombs and instead of trying to stop that chaos asks the one group of demonstrators if THEY want them to act ? PAME substituted the leadership of greek police and the appropriate ministry ? SInce when PAME gives commands to the police ?

Lets see a couple of photos now.

Firstly the DEN PLIRONO block.

We can see people with orange vests and yellow flags. In between them you see even middle aged women. You say that these people were provocative that they threw paint and plastic bottles to you etc.

This is a second photo just before PAME attacked

THERE IS NO PAINT anywhere, but also there are no people of the DEN PLIRONO movement there. Also the black block is not there. There are only people from various movements and so on, but no organized block of people is present there. YOU ACTUALLY FIND THE BLACK BLOCK IN YOUR WAY WHEN YOU ATTACK AND GO DOWN B. GEORGIOU STR.

For one more time the video again of "proto thema" that shows the beginning of the riots : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MESW7O43Axc&feature=player_embedded

First of all there are no yellow flags or any orange vests in the crowd as you attack exactly because DEN PLIRONO had left before the riots. Also it is clear in the video that PAME firstly attacks (lets say for the economy of this conversation that yes you had to attack to protect yourself) and they FIND THEMSELVES IN FRONT OF THE BLACK BLOCK IN THE MIDDLE OF B GEORGIOU STR. This is when some people empty towards you fire extinguishers and then you retreat. So you attacked against a crowd of people (as you can see the street is full) and not against the black block, the black block was moving while you attacked and clashes against you. THIS is what you were not expecting. You did not expect that there would be a response, you were not ready for a counter attack. This is why your lines got reinforced with more people with helmets and flags that came from Voukourestiou str in a clear attempt to surround the black block that meanwhile had pushed you back towards the square. After that point the situation got completely chaotic, there were clashes in syntagma square, in Amalias street, in Georgiou street, there were no lines or blocks any more just people fighting with each other in all that area, and this is when you attacked those unarmed demonstrators that I showed in the pictures before. In that point it was evident that PAME lines were completely broken down and the police started using chemicals in order to scatter the demonstrators.

 

[Dimitris]

Lets see some other photos and some diagrams that show what happened more clearly.

First of all a photo of the police while PAME had taken over the streets around the square.

As you see they are laid back not even in position to attack immediately if needed exactly because you had arranged with them not to attack.

Now this is a diagram that shows where the police, PAME and the rest of the demonstrators were BEFORE the clashes started.

With red (pink actually) is PAME, with blue is the police and with green is the rest of the demonstrators.

There is a heavy force of police in Vaslissis Sofias str as always, there is police in the perimeter of the parliament but as you can see on the previous photo they are just sitting there and other police units below the lower square. IN FRONT OF THE PARLIAMENT AND ON THE ROADS THAT LEAD TO IT THERE IS PAME. THE REST OF THE DEMONSTRATORS ARE SURROUNDED WITH POLICE FROM THE ONE SIDE AND PAME FROM THE OTHER.

After the clashes and when the black block has finally left because of the combined attack of PAME and the police that followed the situation is in this following diagram.

Now you see a police line exactly in front of PAME that did not exist before, that isolates PAME from all the other demonstrators (only a few the police emptied the square with chemicals when they attacked) so now the police protects PAME.

Am I lying ? NO. HERE IS A PHOTO OF THAT

The banner that you see is not from KKE but other leftists ANTARSYA, it is possible that they were cut off by the police while the clashes started and remained behind. If not, it may mean that they cooperated with KKE but I cannot prove that so I will not go any further. What I am just showing with this photo is the police line.

Finally PAME leaves from the square earlier that they had originally planned and goes towards Omonia square guarded by police that followed them up to there.

These are the events as they unfolded and this is how PAME cooperated with the police in order to guard the parliament.

KKE and PAME had called for a circulation of the parliament days before that is true. There was an ideological and moral dilemma among them when they called that because KKE was the one that was criticizing SYRIZA when they did the same some months before. Of course SYRIZA's circulation was different, SYRIZA wanted to prevent the members of the parliament from reaching the building in order to cancel the vote. That day the police had to plan a whole operation in order to create a clear passage for the politicians to pass through the lines of the demonstrators and towards the parliament. KKE did not do that, they circulated the building, but let the politicians to pass through normally. They said that they wanted with their presence exactly outside the parliament to "press" the politicians to vote negatively. Again though, this comes in contrast to what they were saying during this summer, when the people had squatted the parliament square, and KKE was being sarcastic saying that surrounding the square in that manner does not solve the problem. Even though they decided to go along with that plan, the plan that themselves were objecting in the past and circulated the square. The huge difference though is that they circulated preventing other demonstrators with their organized blocks to be there. They wanted only PAME presence to be in front of the parliament and even other people from other blocks who would pass individually would be "counted" as PAME. When SYRIZA circulated the parliament the idea was to block the politicians to approach the parliament not the people protesting !!! This is a clear KKE tactic and is not new to anyone. I showed you a video from a protest some years ago when KKE suddenly appeared in front of a demo and with their cordons blocked the way to anyone else. I also showed you a video of 1998, when they joined with the police surrounding and hitting about 150 comrades. On 1980 during 17th of November protests they circulated the Athens Polytechnic building not allowing demonstrators to enter and as a result of that 2 people died because of police brutality as the people had no shelter to hide.

They failed though. They wanted to appear as themselves being the only real working class movement, the only ones that could prevent the vote. So not only they did not prevent the vote, but also they clearly appeared themselves in front of anybody else as cooperating with the police and the state in favor of this government. They did not expect that they would have any problems, they believed that as it has happened on a number of times on the past that nobody would touch them. Exactly for this reason they talk about "provocateurs that want to destroy the working class movement" because in this way they present that there is a whole orchestrated scenario to destroy their demo and they reverse the situation. The main media and journalists of this country (like MEGA channel) that are pro government are following their line because in this occasion to portrait the events in this order also favors the government.

Finally look at this photo

These are PAME members transferring an injured man. The one PAME member has a helmet and a gas mask, how is this different with what some anarchists were wearing ? Why is this normal, but when an anarchist wears the same gear they are protection material that the police provided to them? Any kind of shop that sells protection gear for constructions and so on sells these kind of masks, what is the gear that the black block owned that as the general secretary of KKE said you need special permission by the police in order to have? Even the fire extinguishers are a very easy thing to find and buy.

If there is something orchestrated here is the lies of KKE and PAME, that are actively trying in all media and internet to promote in order to serve their agenda. This is also how mr Papageorgiou suddenly now came here and started posting in this very thread ONLY and for this very incident instead of involving himself in any kind of political debate on the various threads that I had started and I pointed out in previous posts in this topic.

 

[Dimitris]

The summit of wolves has cheerfully declared: a new haircut for every sheep in the herd!


The news pours in: smiling, shinny suits have met. There had been weeks and months of delays, deliberation after deliberation, but more decisions have now been reached. The markets are already “celebrating”, and this can only send a chilling wave down your spine, a nearly-primal, instinctual response: this can’t be good.

There exist many ways in which to declare default and there exist a million others, as it now becomes clear, to avert this declaration – only to prolong and to turn permanent the misery, the uncertainty and the fear of the state of emergency, the darkness of the unknown.
Before our eyes, within months, weeks and days, the Greek experiment for a new paradigm of governance is taking form. A paradigm where all decisions are made under the veil of the urgent, where their wording makes them deliberately difficult to comprehend, where populations are hammered with laws, decrees, executive meetings made in their permanent absentia.

These wolves are no longer even interested in the perpetuation of their systemic prevalence - their panic is leading to despair, and the continuous invoking to a mysterious, near-divine (anutterly unexplainable) crisis can only last so long. They will continue to treat us, and to exploit us for as long as they see us like sheep. Until the moment, that is, when we decide to take back our agency, our ability to decide for ourselves collectively, until the moment when we take back our lives.

From the Greek streets

 

[papageorgiou12]

1. How many (a grand total) participated in the Syntagma square "popular assemblies" of the summer? Several thousand? Why do you think that they represent the majority of the Greek population "that is fed up with all political parties"?

2. What was the class composition of the people attending these assemblies? Why don't you inform everyone here that they were mostly made up of university students, whereas the majority of the Greek population is working class? Anyway, your "analysis" has been all along devoid of a class line, referring to "people" rather than classes.

3. You are reiterating without shame the arguments of bourgeois politicians and the bourgeois media regarding the "collaboration" of PAME with the police. A simple fact: the organizer of any large demonstration (be it that of PAME or GSEE), involving tens of thousands of participants, is invariably in some form of contact (either on the ground or through political chanels) with the police for obvious reasons having to do with the movement of the demonstration in a city. This does not constitute "collaboration", if words have not lost their meaning.
PAME was dead right to ask the police not to intervene: a police intervention would have unleashed a torrent of tear gas in the square and would have broken up the entire demonstration. I understand that was your intended purpose and now you are whining because it failed! What can we do.....

4. The DEN PLIRONO block had a clear role in initiating the provocations towards PAME. Comrades in the protection contingent were showered with insults, water bottles and (yes) paint! Immediately behind them the anarcho-fascist thugs (black block, soccer hooligans, and other assorted) were preparing the attack on PAME. The videos show that, while the verbal altercations that you show in the picture were taking place, thugs were chipping off marbles from the stairs of the "Grande Bretagne" hotel. Soon after there were used to pelt the PAME demonstrators, necessitating the first counter-attack of PAME.

5. Regarding the silly "maps" that your friends have been presenting today as the paradigm of strategy. PAME is not "surrounding" anyone, despite your perverted logic. In Syntagma square, there are 2 large contingents of demonstrators / strikers: one of PAME in the upper part of the square, one of GSEE in the lower. The entire square is surrounded by police. (If we use your "maps" and your idiotic logic, we can also say that PAME is surrounded on one side by the police and on the other by the "rest of the demonstrators").
Your last "map" shows a line of police on the upper part of the square immediately next to PAME, following your beating-off the square. THIS IS A BLATANT LIE! There were no cops on the upper part of the square (in Amalias street) as anyone who was there can testify.

6. PAME did not need the protection of the police and your photo with their cordon does not prove anything. First of all, the presence of ANTARSYA blocks on the upper part of the square shows that many other forces also disliked your idiotic games. Secondly, by that time the PAME protection contingents had chased you off the square. Unfortunately , because they cannot protect their own demonstration, the GSEE blocks had also dispersed following the clashes.

7. Your whole reasoning regarding the encirclement of the parliament is utterly illogical. PAME (and KKE) are well aware of the state of popular conciousness - we are not at a pre-revolutionary situation that would allow and require a storming of government buildings, etc. Revolution is a serious matter and not a cat-and-mouse game with the police (as it is for you).
Whatever the case, several hundred people cannot demand of tens of thousands to leave, to make way, because they pretend to be "more revoltionary". In fact, the truth is that the anarcho-fascists have been using large demonstrations as a shelter to play their games with the cops and (willfully or not) break-up the demonstrations. This was true last week, it was true in 1998, when you had your a.. kicked because your buddies tried to enter our blocks.

8. For your information, PAME has left Syntagma square and the parliament is still meeting. Why don't you assemble with your buddies (NOW that no-one else is demonstrating) and try to storm the parliament? Why don't you issue a call (as anarchists) to the Greek population to join you in this effort? If we go by your logic both should be relatively easy.

 

[audiotech]

Welcome and thanks for your input papageorgiou12 it is an interesting class perspective you put forward.

 

[Fedayn]

Oooohhh it's those 'anarcho-fascists'.

I see the line that the anarchists killed the fella has been dropped. Those damned medical reports just can't be kept secret. What will be dropped next by uncle Joes representatives in Athens?!

 

[papageorgiou12]

No line "has been dropped", fedayn!

Our comrade (a contruction worker, demonstrator of PAME) was assasinated through the combined "efforts" of the state mechanisms, be they uniformed (police) or in civilian attire (anarcho-fascist thugs). The rotting capitalism is spewing all kinds of vermin:

 

[Fedayn]

No line "has been dropped", fedayn!

Our comrade (a contruction worker, demonstrator of PAME) was assasinated through the combined "efforts" of the state mechanisms, be they uniformed (police) or in civilian attire (anarcho-fascist thugs). The rotting capitalism is spewing all kinds of vermin:

View attachment 14319

A Stalinist calling others vermin and the near 3rd Period idiocy that is 'anarcho-fascists'.... Gets better and better.....

 

[Dimitris]

In what was supposed to be a day of nationalist propaganda, with military parades across the Greek territory (a remnant of military dictatorships past) to celebrate the “national day”, things have taken quite a different turn. In Thessaloniki, the Greek president of democracy was forced to leave the military parade under the constant booing of hundreds – the parade was subsequently cancelled. In Patras and Heraclion, local politicians came under a shower of eggs, and more booing.
In more detail. On 28th of October 1940, Greece officially denied to surrender to the fascist italian troops when they had already approached the Greek borders with Albania and this is how Greece got involved in the WWII. Since then, that day is celebrated in Greece as a "national day" it is a day off for everyone and military type marches are happening in the central roads of cities of all over Greece with school students and the army (if there is an army camp close to that city). Normally at a point on that given road there is a stand where all the local officials are in order to watch the march (politicians, mayors, army officials etc). The people while marching have to turn their heads looking at them when they pass from that stand in order to show respect.
This is not what happened yesterday though. In all cities of Greece demos had been organized that in a lot of occasions blocked the marches and those did not take place. Politicians were the main target of the people, a number of them received eggs and yogurt and they had to flee with the help of the police. In Thesalloniki the main military march was canceled because thousands of demonstrators took over the street.
Personally I was in my hometown, Thebes (Thiva) and together with other 40 people, workers and students we demonstrated exactly opposite the stand while the march was taking place. The majority of the school students did not turn their heads towards the stand as they were supposed to do but towards us. We did not interrupt the march, anyway there were no politicians present only the mayor of the town and some army officials. After the end of the march we started a demo passing from the 2 main streets of the town and finished in the main square, in middle of a lot of people who were there at the time and were applauding us.
Some photos and videos of what happened in various cities all over Greece
Xanthi : http://youtu.be/z_jPZo44_mk
Trikala : http://youtu.be/6NAJqq54BtI Attack against a PASOK mp
Rethymno (in Crete) : http://youtu.be/uBJgM_H9zKk
Thessaloniki : http://youtu.be/KvKCOF6uiyU

Kalamata http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1hP0k5omIHU
Trikala :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnvTd6i5Qk0&feature=player_embedded
Trikala :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuf2c8Vm59c
Xanthi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGoiH_XEbiw
Pireaus :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o9lX_ww2rg&feature=player_embedded
Thesaloniki :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncaz-XznO0s
Florina http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klkmPQHPlBk&feature=player_embedded
Kallithea http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5IT0McDKj88
Corfu http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tF6rEFvqaXI#!
Veria : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2Hq6iV_d1c
Veria http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apr96argKg0
Veria http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGz1LkiYjfg
Volos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKKktxT1m9g
Chalandri http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ6ObGM1ca4
Corinthos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Mbv1u3V_dA
Patras http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8EhR4ERjdc
Patras http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-VnwldnxcM
Kos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REvsUJPjMOk
Navplio http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1HKNq7d5rM
Pyrgos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_ssYswHZEU
Athens http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wISKDanvZsY
Koridallos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBVoOGEjeoU
Paros http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBrnFMAXR3E
Kozani http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=289TKezADu4
Agrinio http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15U28nAIuM8

 

[Dimitris]

a photo from my town



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[Dimitris]

On the 26th of October our government together with all the other EU governments were deciding on the greek but also the european crisis. For Greece in particular they decided for a 50% haircut on the debt that the private sector owns. Therefore they are asking from the banks or other private companies that own greek debt to accept a 50% haircut to that debt voluntarily so in this way this will not be called as a default and the CDS will not be collected by anyone. The money that the European Central Bank and the Troica and IMF have lent us are not being haircut. So in a way the EU is still allowed to speculate against Greece but not the private sector ... A big part of this debt is owned by greek banks and greek social security companies, so after the haircut they will have big liquidity problems. In order this problem to be solved the IMF and troica are giving more 100 billion euros to the greek government in order to ensure that the banks will continue to be working without problems.

As a condition to this "solution" Greece has to appear a positive balance for 2012 and onwards. Therefore Greece must not only manage to erase its deficit but also to have more earnings rather than spendings within a year. But how will this happen when the greek private sector is nearly dead ? When the greek businesses are getting bankrupt and the main greek industries have already migrated to Bulgaria or other eastern europe countries or even to China ? Even if they give money to the businesses who will buy the products that they will sell when the working class in Greece has run out of money ? It is therefore evident that there will be a further attack against the greek working class, with more cuts on wages and pensions more taxes and less public spendings that will result to more poverty and unemployment. This is a part of a bigger plan and as a result of that, Greece will become a country of cheap labor, a heaven for the capitalists in order to invest in Greece and get maximum profit.

Yesterday our prime minister, while speaking with his party mps, he announced that this "solution" that I described you above will be decided with a referendum. So he asks for the public to decide if we want that "solution" otherwise Greece will default. But Greece has already defaulted even since 2 years ago. No matter what we will vote in this referendum the situation for the greek working class will remain the same. Even if we decide to decline this "solution" Greece will default and will possibly return to drachma but with the current government still being in power therefore even on that case, the working class WILL DEFINITELY SUFFER THE MOST.

As an anarchist that I fight against the state and its mechanisms, against capitalism and agains the laws that favor the state and the capitalists, I refuse to get into this process, in this pseudo dilemma that this referendum is putting us. This referendum gives to the public the illusion that they take part on the decisions for their future, but in reality this is a dead end I refuse to contribute to the regeneration of a tyrannical system that has reached its limit and is now under complete destruction. My aim is to take part in its destruction by all means and I promote self management of the means of production and self organization of each local community, to organize a libertarian communist society without bosses with equal procedures and decisions for all, with non hierarchical organization and collective decisions that will be taken by the proletarians for their own interest.

No matter what it takes, we need to struggle in order this regime and this system to get out of power. We need to do it NOW, there is no time for hesitation as now the future of the working class and the future of the next generations is on stake.

 

[disco_dave_2000]

really interesting posts guys, thank you

 

[Dimitris]

Some very quick updates. A government mp has resigned this morning and a few more are ready to do so as well if the prime minister does not change his decision for a referendum. Also some governmental mps are saying that the prime minister should resign and that there should be a coalition government together with other political parties, without elections. The conservative party does not agree to that though so it seems that we are pretty close to elections.

Now the government has 152 mps in the parliament, and needs at least 151 in order to be a government, so if they loose 2 more that is it.

The prime minister and the ministers are now in a meeting all together and we will see if there will be anything interesting coming out of this. I will keep you posted tomorrow with more news if there are any.

 

[gosub]

All the military chief have been sacked as well, and the Prime Minister has been summoned out of the country tommorrow for dinner with Merkel and Sarkosy so he can explain what he thinks he's up to

 

[gosub]

Also don't think the 100bn is for the Greek government its for the likes of BNP, Commerzbank , Soc Gen, Deutsche Bank, Credit Agricole, Intesa SanPaulo, and Uni Credit incase the "volentary haircut" errodes too much of their capital base structuring