Athens Greece: Cops murder a 16 year old

[Dimitris]

I do not believe that the parliament would be stormed in anyway. It was not stormed in on Wednesday when some hundred of thousands were in the square, it would not happen yesterday. NOONE though appointed KKE as a protection force, they decided this by themselves. They do not own the parliament square or Panepistimiou and Stadiou avenue so they should not create road blocks and let ONLY THEIR MEMBERS to pass through. They did not just block a few hundred hoodies, they prevented a number of movements from approaching the square. They surrounded a big part of the people and started beating up whoever they could find. In Amalias avenue they had a van and in there they had helmets and flags that they took when things got more serious. The police when was asked why they did not stop what was happening initially they answered "because KKE told us not to interfere" but later on when they understood that their answer was STUPID (because in this way they were admitting that they were cooperating with KKE/PAME) they changed their story and said that there was a lot of people gathered there so they could not operate. THEY COULD a day before, with massive chemical use when hundreds of thousands were there, but they could not yesterday ....

KKE defended the vote because in reality, they want things to remain as they are. KKE has a huge revolutionary history, for decades it was an illegal party in Greece, for 10 years they were involved in rebel warfare, but now they just want things to remain as they are, because THEY KNOW that they cannot take charge, they are not ready to lead the people to an alternative, because THEY ALSO KNOW that stalinism is not an alternative.

 

[Fedayn]

Pro-business now pro-communist is it? You'll have to do better than that. I've linked to an article that actually does give a report and not a view that spins it into something else. Even if the Greek Communist party was, as you state, "defending the vote", are you now suggesting it would be better not to have a vote?

No, the Herald Sun, that's a pro-big business paper is it not? It's hardly going to defend the demonstrators who attacked the police is it? Well is it? Just a report? Totally objective report? Don't be silly. Why is it better there was a vote? You defended the KKE/PAME, now have the guts to defend their actions? Why did they want the vote to go ahead? Why did they defend, with violence, the Parliament building, that allowed a vote to go ahead? Come on defend your arguments, you are as yet utterly incapable of doing anything even close to that and you know it.

Here's an eye-witness report.... Still defending the KKE attacking people?

o, yesterday I credited the communists with trying to protect the
protesters but now I feel like a chump. I’ve been criticised on Twitter
for condemning them, but fuck whoever it was who attacked the crowd
waving red flags. Twenty minutes after the first brawls, Elektra
Kotsoni, Hugo Donkin and I were regrouping at a corner of the square;
Elektra – a Greek – overheard the chatter: “the communists are coming”.
Round the corner charged god-knows how many young men in helmets. They
were holding long, thick wooden staffs and red flags; roaring. They
smashed through the crowd – anarchist, democrat, bystander, journalist,
whatever; they were swinging at us.

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/athe...ts-anarchy-communists-syntagma-square-day-two

 

[gawkrodger]

I was just going to post that vice article

 

[audiotech]

I'll go with one of the comments from that link you posted:

Great title. NOT. Over sensationalist piece, filled with inaccuracies and ultimately fails to pass the "So what?" test.

It also just about sums up the hysterical nonsense you've posted thus far.

 

[audiotech]

No, the Herald Sun, that's a pro-big business paper is it not? It's hardly going to defend the demonstrators who attacked the police is it? Well is it? Just a report? Totally objective report? Don't be silly. Why is it better there was a vote? You defended the KKE/PAME, now have the guts to defend their actions? Why did they want the vote to go ahead? Why did they defend, with violence, the Parliament building, that allowed a vote to go ahead? Come on defend your arguments, you are as yet utterly incapable of doing anything even close to that and you know it.

!) Pro-business yes, not pro-communist.
2) Nor defend any communists.
2a) As above
3) Yes, it's just a report.
4) Objective? Just as 'objective' as any other.
5) Better than not to have a vote at all.
6) I'm defending trade unionists defending the demonstration from idiots with explosives and petrol bombs.
7) As above.
8) I know what I know, you don't.

I think that's it?

 

[Fedayn]

I'll go with one of the comments from that link you posted:

It also just about sums up the hysterical nonsense you've posted thus far.

The article was written byu a man who was, 24 hours previously commending the KKE for it's actions. Perhaps his being an eye-witness is confusing you a bit.

Do you mean comments such as .....

"What's the deal with Greek communists? Have they gone bonkers? Anyway it's a major shit stor out there..."

"Fucking Stalinists."??

"Amazing, confusing and interesting scenes."

You just missed them didn't you?

 

[Fedayn]

!) Pro-business yes, not pro-communist.
2) Nor defend any communists.
2a) As above
3) Yes, it's just a report.
4) Objective? Just as 'objective' as any other.
5) Better than not to have a vote at all.
6) I'm defending trade unionists defending the demonstration from idiots with explosives and petrol bombs.
7) As above.
8) I know what I know, you don't.

I think that's it?

Pish, you are mouthing ignorant platitudes that don't tie up with eye-witnesses that are readable on here, the link I posted and Dimitris comments. The KKE attacked the demo not just those pesky anarchists. And again, just to remind you and given your own inability to understand simple English, I am not defending or arguing in support of or supporting as a tactic the attempts to storm the parliament, as has been said it ewould happen eolsewhere. However what did defending the vote achieve? What exactly has been done to advance the class struggle by the Stalinists ensuring-or trying to anyways-that the vote goes ahead? What actual pro-working class benefits did that vote taking place achieve? I'm sure you'll be able to regale us with a litany of advances that have been achieved?!

What do you know exactly? Not much it seems given your piss poor non answers to logical questions.

 

[audiotech]

I could go on and quote more from that "eyewitness account" full of contradictory statements, including the title: "People are burning on the streets of Athens" - the only people burning I could see were those who had petrol bombs thrown their way by the hoodies and who were more than likely members of Pame - but I've had some bad news, on top of heaps of bad news with regards to my family and so will have to depart from this.

 

[Fedayn]

I could go on and quote more from that "eyewitness account" full of contradictory statements, including the title: "People are burning on the streets of Athens" - the only people burning I could see were those who had petrol bombs thrown their way by the hoodies and who were more than likely members of Pame - but I've had some bad news, on top of heaps of bad news with regards to my family and so will have to depart from this.

Shite, sorry to hear about the bad news, hope things are ok.

 

[where to]

needs to be seen to be believed this. the police must have been loving it.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/10/2011102018731699815.html

very depressing.

 

[friedaweed]

Fucking bonkers

 

[Dimitris]

I post in these boards and in this topic all these years in order to give you alternative information of what is happening in Greece, because the mass media only present a part of the bigger picture, especially in demos. On the 90% of what I have posted in this thread from its very beginning on December 2008 have been my own experiences and on the most of occasions they have been backed up with videos and photos that prove my point. Still though I see members here that only judge by what they see on the mass media, for example the video of Aljazeera.

I explained you very clearly what happened BEFORE the black block attacked PAME, I even provided photos with a link, because some people though still do not take in account what I type here, HERE IS A VIDEO. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td1nOjqm3L4

Also IF YOU WANT EVEN MORE WATCH THIS VIDEO. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MESW7O43Axc&feature=player_embedded#!
You can see CLEARLY that PAME members start throwing flares against the crowd and then ATTACK. As they attack though the black block comes forward.

Also see how the PAME members "defend" from this guy on this video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hQNhy8XArko

You can see the PAME flag clearly. The demonstrator that was beaten up is now in hospital.

 

[sunnysidedown]

No offence Dimitris, but that first clip you linked to shows PAME standing their ground with a couple of bottles and flares being chucked at them (you can even see one member control another who retaliates slightly after a bottle is thrown at him), there's also a shot clearly at the end of someone knocking chunks of concrete out of a wall to throw at them.

PAME must of known it would kick off though.

 

[laptop]

Statement from the Central Committee of the KKE (Stalinists) is as surreal as a very surreal thing...

 

[DrRingDing]

Statement from the Central Committee of the KKE (Stalinists) is as surreal as a very surreal thing...

anarcho-fascists who with Molotov cocktails, stones, and other weapons which are used by the police, such as teargas and stun grenades, attempted to disperse the majestic rally of the workers and people in Syntagma and especially the part where PAME was concentrated. The assault took place on the edges of the demonstration and had as a result the injury of 80 PAME demonstrators and the death of the construction worker-trade unionist of PAME, Dimitris Kotzaridis. Nevertheless, their goal, which was to disperse the rally of PAME, to intimidate and suppress the working class and popular torrent for counterattack which came onto the streets for the 48 hr general strike, failed! The forces of the protection of the rally successfully repelled the murderous assault!

I'm fucking speechless.

That coupled with the Morning Star's stab at revisionism ( http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/110987 ) do they honestly think they can get away with it? They're not Pravda.

 

[dylans]

I like this bit

Even more dangerous and dirty is the slander that PAME protected the parliament from the protesters, an allegation reproduced by bourgeois and opportunist mass media – domestic and international ones. This dirty allegation seeks to portrait PAME as a support of the bourgeois system and the KKE as a “systemic force”, as a party of the bourgeois system

Perhaps that's because they did and they are

 

[Dimitris]

No offence Dimitris, but that first clip you linked to shows PAME standing their ground with a couple of bottles and flares being chucked at them (you can even see one member control another who retaliates slightly after a bottle is thrown at him), there's also a shot clearly at the end of someone knocking chunks of concrete out of a wall to throw at them.

PAME must of known it would kick off though.

PAME are standing where they should not be. This is what triggered the whole thing in the first place anyway. To be honest with you, I had a feeling that we would have such a development even from a day before, on Tuesday, when I saw PAME forming a cordon in front of the parliament where the police normally is. When the riots against the police started that day PAME received a lot of criticism because they left. They got criticized by people as they expected that PAME would be there and confront the police themselves, but they are people that do not know PAME and how they work, because they do not have experiences of demos. I was sure that PAME would not just "surround" the parliament on Wednesday as they were officially saying but they would be actually GUARDING IT, as I pointed out and in this very thread on my post that morning before I left for the demo.

The demo was not organized by PAME and the people were not there in order to break PAME's demonstration. The demo was organized by the trade unions and the syndicates and it was within a 48 hour general strike, so ALL PEOPLE had the right to be there at the parliament square and demonstrate and not just KKE and their members. This was the most crucial day of the demonstrations, more crucial than the day before when about 500,000 were in the streets of Athens. On the most crucial day then, when inside the parliament they were voting for the new labor reform, PAME was not letting the workers and the syndicates to demonstrate outside the parliament. PAME HELPED the government to pass forward this law without even the people to have the ability to demonstrate against that.

Myself I did not like the view of workers being in between petrol bombs and stone throwing, but if there is someone to blame why this started, you should blame PAME, this is what they were organized for and that is why they had all these helmets etc in that van hidden WAITING for riots to happen. They also know that they have the mass media that will "sell" KKE's side of the story, even TV channels that are pro-government (like MEGA channel) are going according KKE's side of the story. Imagine that one person died, a member of PAME, because of police chemicals, and instead of blaming the police for the use of such chemicals they blame the " anarchofascist provocateurs that wanted to destroy the peaceful worker's demo of PAME"

 

[dylans]

Dimitris. Forgive my relative ignorance of Greek politics but can you tell us something of the KKE and PAME in terms of their ideology. I understand that the KKE are Stalinists and that PAME is the trade union front .What is the relationship between the two and what is their ideological motivation behind defending the Parliament and the vote?

Also what is their strategy for solving this crisis if as it seems, they are essentially reformist and parliamentarian and therefore they have ruled out a struggle for siezing power. Also is there a serious leftist/revolutionary alternative and what is the strength of groups and coalitions such as Xekinima and SYRIZA and what is their proposed solution? Finally, from here the footage of mass demonstrations and general strikes etc looks very much like a revolutionary situation. Is this accurate is the protest movement essentially that, a protest movement. What I want to know is what is going on beyond the demonstrations and the Molotov's etc in terms of the revolutionary left. if Greece were to simply default and return to the Drachma would this solve the social crisis or have things gone beyond that. What I am asking really is, is there going to be a revolution in Greece?

 

[papageorgiou12]

A reply to the avalanche of disinformation supplied by Dimitirs:

1. He is arguing that "PAME is standing where they should not be". Who decides where each force should and should not be. The 20th of October was the second day of the 48-hour general strike. PAME had called on that day for an encirclement of the parliament building as a symbolic gesture of popular discontent. By 10am tens of thousands of working people had marched under the banners of PAME and taken over the upper part of Syntagma square.
2. Strong contingents of PAME union members were placed all around the PAME demonstration to prevent the usual cat-and-mouse idiotic games that 200-300 "black block" thugs paly with the police in almost every major demonstration, often managing to disperse these demonstrations.
3. The protection contingents of PAME did not prevent any ordinary worker to pass through and enter the upper part of the square where the organized forces of PAME trade unions had taken up positions. In fact, thousands of working people did, intermingling with the PAME union members.
4. So it is idiotic to claim that PAME " was not letting the workers and the syndicates to demonstrate outside the parliament". First of all, PAME itself consists of hundreds of unions and tens of thousands of their members were already there under the banners of PAME. Secondly, thousands more arrived in Syntagma square with GSEE and took positions in the lower (unfilled) part of the square.
5. It is therefore logical that organized blocks of demonstrators could not pass through the huge block of PAME in the upper part of the square (which was basically staging a sit-in). No trade union belonging to GSEE asked to do so.
6. There was a tiny group of around 50 demonstrators from a miniscule thematic group (THEN PLIRONO) who wanted to march past the PAME contingents, enter the PAME blocks as a group and approach the parliament building in the midst of the PAME demonstrators. They approached the front row of the PAME protection contingent, started vile insults, throwing bottles, paint, etc. Behind them the "black block" thugs had already started preparing their assault, chipping off large marble pieces of the pavements. Very soon and when the provocation of the "THEN PLIRONO" group had not had any real effect (the PAME protection contingent keeping its cool), the real attack on the unarmed demonstrators of PAME started.
7. And this was a murderous attack intended to cause casualties and to break-up the demonstration, favoring the plans of the government. There was a hailstorm of huge marble pieces and stones, Molotoff cocktails, even whole hammers. And mind you, these were thrown not only against the protection contingents of PAME (who had at least minimal protection with helmets), but MOSTLY against the thousands of unarmed workers. Tens were injured, some seriously. Friends of mine (not in the protection contingents) received head wounds and leg wounds from the stones being thrown.
8. The response of the PAME forces, faced with such an onslaught, had to be violent. It was and it was very effective. The tens of thousands of demonstrators stood their ground, chased off the thugs and remained on the square for an additional 2.5 hours.
9. It was proven once more that the "black block" thugs play a very suspect role, apparently connected with state security organs. In fact this time there are clear pictures showing them using police gear (buttons, smoke and sound grenades, etc). Having been crushed by the PAME forces, it is quite logical that their representatives here (like Dimitirs) would be whining about the "undemocratic" PAME who did not let a bunch of several hundred thugs destroy a demonstration of tens of thousands.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

It's those cunts from the Judean Popular Front you want to watch out for, Georgiou.

 

[dennisr]

They surrounded a big part of the people and started beating up whoever they could find.

Was this before or after some silly feckers starting throwing petrol bombs and slabs at their contingent?

There's a a few things that simply don't add up here - from your account of events. What gives the 'few hundred' (if the KKE reply above is to be given any credit) the right to cause a counterattack by the state when 'tens of thousands' were not up for it. Its not a moral dialema on my part -just I am wondering about the 'democratic' credentials of both sides of this 'debate'

I must say - I find it hard to trust either the Judean Popular Front or the Popular Front of Judea in this case.

 

[papageorgiou12]

dennis,

your hesitation to take sides in this is perfectly understandable, but I am afraid that good movie punchlines are not useful to understand what happened in Syntagma square. The fact is that dimitris' line that the PAME protection contingents "surrounded a big part of the people and started beating whoever they could find" is a pure fabrication. There were thousands of peaceful demonstrators in the lower part of the square, belonging to GSEE unions. They were not in any way assaulted during the counterattack of the PAME forces. Those that were targetted were the actual attackers, that were well armed and pretty obvious to make out. Believe me in this - if you were there you could easily tell who is who.

 

[dennisr]

dennis,

your hesitation to take sides in this is perfectly understandable, but I am afraid that good movie punchlines are not useful to understand what happened in Syntagma square. The fact is that dimitris' line that the PAME protection contingents "surrounded a big part of the people and started beating whoever they could find" is a pure fabrication. There were thousands of peaceful demonstrators in the lower part of the square, belonging to GSEE unions. They were not in any way assaulted during the counterattack of the PAME forces. Those that were targetted were the actual attackers, that were well armed and pretty obvious to make out. Believe me in this - if you were there you could easily tell who is who.

That's the problem - I'm not a witness . The KKE does not seem to help its argument by insinuating - dark state forces at work (its just sounds like the counter insinuation to your group 'defending the state building'). I'm not saying that state forces cannot use the idiotic tactics of others as a cover. But where is further evidence of this (I have seen some video footage of earlier events). I understand the need to defend a contingent by whatever means you have from a violent assault (if this was the case - that is the problem - i do not know).

I have heard plenty of evidence of the KKE taking a sectarian line when what is needed is genuine unity of left forces so I was glad initially to hear they they decided for the first time in years to join the rest of the Left and the unions in a common demonstration. I am still not sure which side was behaving like the bigger bunch of arseholes in these events.I have to ask something though - if the KKE were so concerned about not wanting anarchos to discredit the demonstration - do you not think that these violent clashes - which were broadcast on Greek television to show divisions on the Left - and to try to discredit the strike defeated you aims somewhat?

There are much more important issues for working people in Greece though - I have to ask what will happen next? The cuts bill was passed but strikes, occupations and protests can continue. I am guessing that many workers hope that some of the more militant union federations will continue with protest actions. But there seems to be no clear lead from any of the union leaders or from the Left parties. Workers want to fight and have shown they will fight to the end, but they are not optimistic. All of the Left parties call for the “removal” of the government but it is largely empty rhetoric as they do not put forward any specific demands to concretely develop the mass struggle?

 

[trabant]

Resolution by the Popular Assembly of Syntagma Square, 21/10/2011:

After Varkiza [1], the Polytechnic [2], the Chemistry School (1979) [3], December [2008] [4] and a number of other instances, reality once again came to reveal the role of the Party that systematically betrays popular struggles. And if up to this point they strangled, with their political offices any generalised and determined strike during all these years, if they smeared all revolts as a “provocation”, henceforth history shows this was not “mere political errors” but a co-oordinated and conscious stance defending parliamentary dictatorship and the capitalist financial and social relationships. This is what they did yesterday (20/10), too, even if up to that point they would call the people to demonstrations for the overthrowing of the government. They guarded the smooth operation of parliament and instead of surrounding it they acted even more barbarously than the police, cracking sculls open and handing over demonstrators to the forces of repression. The worst from all that they did was that they legitimised the state, which murdered one of their comrades, blaming the murder to some parastatist violence.
From yesterday on, definitively and irreversibly, the so-called “Communist Party” is no more than a barrier against the attempt to bury the parliamentary corpse. Any free human struggling for their dignity in these crucial days must politically target it [in return]. This proposition should not be read as a split in the movement. We might have common problems and common targets with the plain voters of the “Communist Party”, but the politics and the practice of the leadership to which they are glued follows by word the orders of the government and the envoys of the IMF, EU and the ECB. We never marched side-by-side with them, there will never be with us. We must all keep in mind that the “Communist Party” will act as a fifth column of the dictatorial regime, hoping once again to grab some crumbs off the parliamentary table, just like it did in 1990 [5].
The stance of all political groupings, whether parliamentary or not, which supported the acts of the “Communist Party”, either indirectly with their silence, or directly with their statements, is equally condemnable. For as long as these parties remain within a parliament comprising of order-recipients of the TROIKA and continue to receive their fat salaries, they are entirely co-responsible for what has happened so far and what is to come. Their negative votes to the memorandums and combined laws reveal precisely their role in the dictatorship: they provide the alibi of polyphony and democracy, in this entirely set-up parliament of representatives, in order for the impoverished people to continue counting the ballots in each fixed and predetermined voting of laws that abolish their future – while at the same time being fed with the illusion that someone speaks on their behalf and their interest. So, they leave opposition to the professionals of politics, and do not feel the need to react immediately and by person. Any vote, even to extra-parliamentary parties of the “far left” in national and local elections is nothing more than oil in the clogs [of the machine] and a legitimisation of the “correctness” of the current parliamentary dictatorship.
From May 25th, when we first gathered at the square, we revealed direct democracy as the capacity of each one of us to participate, to consult, one another, to shape ideas together autonomously, away from ideological or parliamentary labels. We shall remain here, against their bankrupt parliamentarism and their bureaucracy.

WE ARE TAKING OUR LIVES INTO OUR OWN HANDS​

DIRECT DEMOCRACY NOW​

Popular Assembly of Syntagma Square, 21/10/2011​

1. Reference to the 1945 Treaty of Varkiza, where the Communist Party betrayed armed struggle and thousands of fighters of the Civil War in exchange for its legality in the new regime​

2. Reference to the Communist Party’s original stance against the Polytechnic Uprising of 1973, calling participants “police provocateurs” ​

3. Reference to the incidents of 1979 at the Chemistry School in Athens, where members of the Communist Party broke the school’s occupation, directly co-operating with the police​

4. A reference, of course, to the most recent condemning of the revolt of December 2008​

5. Reference to the Communist Party’s share of power with the two main parliamentary parties, ND and PASOK, in 1990​

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/...popular-assembly-of-syntagma-square-21102011/

 

[papageorgiou12]

dennis,

the Greek workers' movement in each long history has had quite an extensive experience with (what we call) para-state mechanisms working hand-in-hand with the police. There exist many pictures and videos on the internet showing such provocateurs, at one moment intermingling with the police, at the next "throwing rocks" at the police. In the last few years the unions of PAME have captured in the midst of their demonstrations plain-clothes cops (dressed in "rebellious" attire) and have unmasked them by revealing their ID's.

Even if we assume, for the sake of our discussion, that there are also young people in the so-called "black block" that are not directly related to the state, one has to ask the fundamental questions: a) who is calling the shots when it comes to the persistent violent confrontations of these small groups with the police? b) who is profiting from these confrontations and the subsequent dispersion by the police of the much larger demonstrations within the bounds of which they take place? Why don't the self-professed "ultra revolutionaries" attempt to storm the parliament building by themselves one day and not under the cover of a huge demonstration?

The forces of PAME did not start the clashes during the demonstration, so they cannot be accused of helping in discrediting the strike. Everything was going fine for hours on end and tens of thousands of workers were gathering in Syntagma square (both from the PAME unions and the GSEE unions) before a couple of hundred thugs attacked the PAME demonstrators in the manner I described above. We had 2 options: either disperse our forces and break-up the demonstration or stand firm, taking casualties. We chose the later, correctly in my opinion, irrespective of what the media would say.

Your questions about the future of the movement after the passage of the latest bill are valid. However, some points need to stressed:
1. The "black block" thugs are not part of the movement. They are not part of "the Left". They do not engage in trade-union activity and they are largely irrelevant, if we exclude their usefulness for the state.
2. The so-called "sectarian line" of PAME is a fabrication by those who want to conceal the real dividing line in the society today, that between the working class and the forces of capital. PAME (and the communists within its ranks) are working day and night in the factories and other work-places, trying to organize people at the grassroots against the bosses and the large monopolies. This is the basis of the class struggle, which has to be linked of course to the wider struggle for state power.
3. In this regard, the reformist unions (GSEE, etc), from which PAME has largely detached itself, have exhibited a collaborationist approach, signing collective agreements that reduced wages, slashed workers' pensions, etc. They have become a bureaucratic mechanism that works in cohorts with the state and the bosses. The principal proponents of the so-called "unity of the left" (the forces of SYNASPISMOS) hold leading positions in these reformist unions.
4. PAME (and KKE on the political front) are offering today the only clear and resolute leadership, the only real alternative to the working people of Greece. They do not aim to deceive by arguing (as others do) that there can be a solution through the formation of a "left, progressive government" that could supposedly, staying within the bounds of capitalism and the European Union, negotiate an alternative policy to the benefit of working people. We put forward the necessity of radically altering the correlation of forces and of the working people of Greece transforming the large enterprises into public property.
5. This is the only line that makes sense today and does not lead to self-illusions. BUT the struggle ahead is tough. It is erroneous to assume (as you do) that "workers are ready to fight to the end" TODAY. Unfortunately, we are no there yet and herein lies the role of militant trade-union work, like that of PAME, and of a revolutionary party, like KKE.

 

[Dimitris]

First of all let me welcome you to the boards, as I see that you are a new member.

1. He is arguing that "PAME is standing where they should not be". Who decides where each force should and should not be. The 20th of October was the second day of the 48-hour general strike. PAME had called on that day for an encirclement of the parliament building as a symbolic gesture of popular discontent. By 10am tens of thousands of working people had marched under the banners of PAME and taken over the upper part of Syntagma square.

Who decides ? Common sense. You do not own the square and it was not your demonstration, it was a GSEE ADEDY demo so everyone should have the ability to be at the square. You had called for an encirclement of the parliament not for NOT ALLOWING OTHER DEMONSTRATORS TO PASS THROUGH.

2. Strong contingents of PAME union members were placed all around the PAME demonstration to prevent the usual cat-and-mouse idiotic games that 200-300 "black block" thugs paly with the police in almost every major demonstration, often managing to disperse these demonstrations.

So in a way you say that you did play the role of the police. You decided by yourselves that the anarchists and anti authoritarians should not be in the square and they should be stopped. It would be legitimate if you would use the cordon in order to protect PAME members, you clearly used them though (as you admit) in order to block parts of the demonstration to arrive at the square. You did not block only anti authoritarians though, you blocked a lot of GSEE members, OAKEE, EEK, POE - OTA, taxi drivers, the " I DONT PAY" movement (DEN PLIRONO), also the people who had taken over the parliament square for so many months and were in the demo with their own block.

3. The protection contingents of PAME did not prevent any ordinary worker to pass through and enter the upper part of the square where the organized forces of PAME trade unions had taken up positions. In fact, thousands of working people did, intermingling with the PAME union members.

I answered above, except if you believe that POE OTA or taxi drivers or the whole lot that you prevented are not "ordinary workers". Aren't there ordinary workers within OAKEE or EEK ?

4. So it is idiotic to claim that PAME " was not letting the workers and the syndicates to demonstrate outside the parliament". First of all, PAME itself consists of hundreds of unions and tens of thousands of their members were already there under the banners of PAME. Secondly, thousands more arrived in Syntagma square with GSEE and took positions in the lower (unfilled) part of the square.

I think I already answered that.

5. It is therefore logical that organized blocks of demonstrators could not pass through the huge block of PAME in the upper part of the square (which was basically staging a sit-in). No trade union belonging to GSEE asked to do so.

It is logical that demonstrators could not be with their blocks in the square ? So demonstrators should be in the square without their blocks and banners, therefore appearing as being PAME demonstrators ? You do not really believe that anyone would accept that do you ?

6. There was a tiny group of around 50 demonstrators from a miniscule thematic group (THEN PLIRONO) who wanted to march past the PAME contingents, enter the PAME blocks as a group and approach the parliament building in the midst of the PAME demonstrators. They approached the front row of the PAME protection contingent, started vile insults, throwing bottles, paint, etc. Behind them the "black block" thugs had already started preparing their assault, chipping off large marble pieces of the pavements. Very soon and when the provocation of the "THEN PLIRONO" group had not had any real effect (the PAME protection contingent keeping its cool), the real attack on the unarmed demonstrators of PAME started.

YOU ARE LYING. A video that proves that : http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aOkmUlHRHYk

THEN PLIRONO left peacefully when you did not let them pass through, only small verbal confrontations took place. As you can see they continued their demo themselves passing from Monastiraki and so on.

Unarmed demonstrators of PAME ? Helmets and flags and flare throwing are what exactly ? Did PAME have the flags and the helmets stored in a van at Amalias street or not ?

7. And this was a murderous attack intended to cause casualties and to break-up the demonstration, favoring the plans of the government. There was a hailstorm of huge marble pieces and stones, Molotoff cocktails, even whole hammers. And mind you, these were thrown not only against the protection contingents of PAME (who had at least minimal protection with helmets), but MOSTLY against the thousands of unarmed workers. Tens were injured, some seriously. Friends of mine (not in the protection contingents) received head wounds and leg wounds from the stones being thrown.
8. The response of the PAME forces, faced with such an onslaught, had to be violent. It was and it was very effective. The tens of thousands of demonstrators stood their ground, chased off the thugs and remained on the square for an additional 2.5 hours.
9. It was proven once more that the "black block" thugs play a very suspect role, apparently connected with state security organs. In fact this time there are clear pictures showing them using police gear (buttons, smoke and sound grenades, etc). Having been crushed by the PAME forces, it is quite logical that their representatives here (like Dimitirs) would be whining about the "undemocratic" PAME who did not let a bunch of several hundred thugs destroy a demonstration of tens of thousands.

Again the video that shows the beginning of the riots : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MESW7O43Axc&feature=player_embedded

PAME starts throwing flares and attacks and only stops when fire extinguishers were emptied upon them.

Also watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Vjlwy7_Njqc

The lower part of the square is nearly EMPTY( this replies to your previous point about demonstrators being at the lower part of the square). Riot police is there but they do nothing while on the same time there are clashes going on. Why the police did not try to stop the riots when they initially started ?

Defending ? This is how your mob defenses ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsmHseSHQZQ&feature=player_embedded

Photos of the PAME attack also here : http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=1345136

There are much more videos and evidence available on the net that show what happened clearly and your lies can be easily answered. As I said and on a previous message here, a member of PAME died because of direct exposure to a police chemical, and KKE instead of condemning the use of such lethal chemicals, instead of asking for an inquiry and for toxicological reports in order to see what chemicals the police is using, blames directly the "anarcho-fascists" as they say for the death of this man. Btw he was not even involved in the riots, he was not injured by anything, but a police chemical landed exactly next to him (I do not make these up this is what his wife said and was mentioned by a doctor of Evangelismos hospital on MEGA CHANNEL news) so you can ONLY BLAME THE POLICE FOR HIS DEATH.

Of course the cooperation of Riot police (MAT) and KNE is not something new. Here is a video of the 1998 events : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTiOb35SSs0

KKE blocks the 17th of November demo 2010 by getting in front of all the others and makes cordons : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoIe1MyX7gI&feature=related

In Thessaloniki on 2008 KNE again blocks the way for anarchists, anarchists firstly demand peacefully for KNE to open up but unfortunately clashes start.

on Thursday demonstrators also had problems with PAME in Thesalloniki. In Igoumenitsa workers had taken over the prefecture building and PAME tried to take it over from the workers ! In Rethymno (Crete) they showed their flags to the people and clashes were very close to happen but the rest demonstrators finally left.

So as you can understand it was a central PAME and KKE policy to "police" demonstrations in various areas of Greece and Athens was not an isolated incident because of "a few thugs" that wanted to destroy the demo. The fact that the popular assembly of the parliament square also condemned PAME's action should make you think a little, because they are not " a bunch of thugs" but generally peaceful demonstrators that had taken over the square for months and do not belong in any particular "left" movement.

 

[Dimitris]

Dimitris. Forgive my relative ignorance of Greek politics but can you tell us something of the KKE and PAME in terms of their ideology. I understand that the KKE are Stalinists and that PAME is the trade union front .What is the relationship between the two and what is their ideological motivation behind defending the Parliament and the vote?

Also what is their strategy for solving this crisis if as it seems, they are essentially reformist and parliamentarian and therefore they have ruled out a struggle for siezing power. Also is there a serious leftist/revolutionary alternative and what is the strength of groups and coalitions such as Xekinima and SYRIZA and what is their proposed solution? Finally, from here the footage of mass demonstrations and general strikes etc looks very much like a revolutionary situation. Is this accurate is the protest movement essentially that, a protest movement. What I want to know is what is going on beyond the demonstrations and the Molotov's etc in terms of the revolutionary left. if Greece were to simply default and return to the Drachma would this solve the social crisis or have things gone beyond that. What I am asking really is, is there going to be a revolution in Greece?

All PAME members are also KKE members, PAME is a KKE front, basically a syndicalist body of the stalinist communists. An another front of KKE is KNE, this is the Communist Youth of KKE. Finally Panspoudastiki, is the student union of KKE. The actions of any of those are all dictated by the communist party itself.

KKE was not used to be a parliamentarian party as they are now. For decades they were outlawed in Greece, its members were sent to jail or in isolation in deserted islands, a lot were tortured or murdered. These were the revolutionary years of KKE, especially during the period of the civil war (1945 - 1949) when they were engaged in rebel guerilla warfare against the state and other paramilitary far right organizations. Even then though, their sectarian politics were similar in a way with today. They were actively chasing and killing Trotskyists and other marxists who were criticizing KKE. On 2007 I posted this thread that explains a lot about that period, and I also draw parallels with today. http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/revolutionary-movements.158880/

I do not know if we are ready for a revolution. I know one thing, that a vast majority of the greek population is fed up with ALL political parties and movements, even with the left itself. This is why the demonstrations that draw the most people nowadays are the apolitical ones. This thread started on December 2008 when Alexis was murdered by cops. During that time people of all ages and different political backrounds took the streets and demonstrated against the state and the brutal greek police. It was an outburst of anger, that was not coming from a specific political or ideological movement. Of course IT HAD clear political characteristics, although they were not able to be seen yet. Even before that, on the summer of 2007, while nearly the whole Greece was burning because of huge forest fires, one day some bloggers had an idea that people of Athens should demonstrate at the parliament square against that government that had not planned effectively their action plan for fires like that, wearing black cloths. ON THE SAME DAY that they posted that blog, 20,000 people took over the whole square, without any political or other banners. For me that was a first sign of what we see now. For a few good months this year, the parliament square was taken over by hundreds of people, some days even thousands, who were all outraged by the government but also the greek political parties in general. In their assemblies, but also in the assemblies of various taken over squares of all over Greece, they were mostly discussing of a plan based on DIRECT DEMOCRACY. What they were discussing, has been discussed more than 100 years ago by various anarchists, but for these people, it is something completely new. I will be honest with you, I do not believe that within this week or the next suddenly thousands of greeks will demand the complete abolishment of the state, but the backround is here for something like this to happen in the near future.

This is why PAME acted like that on Thursday, and this is why they will act in a similar pattern in the recent future. Because they clearly understand that they cannot control any more, the situation as it is now, so they want to suppress it before we have a more massive social rebellion. It seems to me though, that what they do in reality is that they speed up this process.

 

[friedaweed]

This all reminds me of RAWS Illuminatus trilogy. I think Wilson saw this coming

In fact, several kinds of sex orgies had been going on in Las Vegas ever since the Veterans of the
Sexual Revolution had arrived two days earlier. The Hugh M. Hefner Brigade had taken two stories
of the Sands, hired a herd of professional women, and hadn't yet come out to join the Alfred Kinsey
Brigade, the Norman Mailer Guerrillas and the others in marching up and down the Strip, squirting
young girls in the crotch with water pistols, passing bottles of hooch back and forth and generally
blocking traffic and annoying pedestrians. Dr. Naismith himself, after a few token appearances, had
avoided most of the merriment and retired to a private suite to work on his latest fund-raising letter
for the Colossus of Yorba Linda Foundation. Actually, the VSR, like White Heroes Opposing Red
Extremism, was one of Naismith's lesser projects and brought in only peanuts. Most of the real
veterans of the sexual revolution had succumbed to syphilis, marriage, children, alimony or some
such ailment, and few white heroes were prepared to oppose red extremism in the bizarre manner
suggested by Naismith's pamphlets; in both of those cases, he had recognized two nut markets that
nobody else was exploiting and had quickly moved in. Even the John Dillinger Died For You Society, of which he was inordinately proud since it was probably the most implausible religion in
the long history of humanity's infatuation with metaphysics, didn't earn much less per annum than
these fancies. The real bread was in the Colossus of Yorba Linda Foundation

It does seem a bit people's front

 

[papageorgiou12]

Who decides ? Common sense. You do not own the square and it was not your demonstration, it was a GSEE ADEDY demo so everyone should have the ability to be at the square.

In fact IT WAS our demonstration. PAME had called for an enciclement of the parliament which obviously involved the upper part of the square. This is the only part of the square that we took over with our organized forces. Plenty of room was left in the remaining square for the other trade-union forces.

It would be legitimate if you would use the cordon in order to protect PAME members, you clearly used them though (as you admit) in order to block parts of the demonstration to arrive at the square.

That is exactly what we did! We used the protection contingents to protect the PAME demonstrators from the expected idiocies of the so-called "anarchists". Obviously, when there are tens of thousands of demonstrators in your blocks, there is no possibility of other blocks to come and occupy the same space that you are occupying. Logic dictates that much! Once again, the square is quite big and plenty of demonstrator blocks co-existed in other parts of it.
When you compare the blocks of PAME with those of OAKKE (a state security creation) or DEN PLIRONO, you are counting on the lack of knowledge of other people reading this board. Essentially you are comparing a trade-union front with tens of thousands of demonstrators under its flags with small groups of several tens of people at most.

THEN PLIRONO left peacefully when you did not let them pass through, only small verbal confrontations took place.

The video that you show is heavily edited on purpose to excise the portions that implicate DEN PLIRONO in the preparation of the attack against peaceful demonstrators. I was there! The protection contingents of PAME received not "verbal confrontations", but vile insults, bottles of water, paint, etc. And they did not react! The DEN PLIRONO provocateurs left when their role had been completed and the rest of the state thugs were prepared to take over.

Did PAME have the flags and the helmets stored in a van at Amalias street or not ?

Wow! You made an amazing discovery! All of the protection contingents of PAME were equipped with helmets and flags from the very beginning of the demonstration. This is standard practice used by a number of political groupings of the left and by other trade unions. What we did not have were police buttons, marble pieces, slingthrows, sound grenades, tear gas canisters, and other police paraphernalia, as did your "anarchist" thugs!

The lower part of the square is nearly EMPTY( this replies to your previous point about demonstrators being at the lower part of the square). Riot police is there but they do nothing while on the same time there are clashes going on. Why the police did not try to stop the riots when they initially started ?

The confrontation started with an avalanche of rocks and marbles thrown against the PAME demonstration (not only against the protection contingents, but MOSTLY against the body of the demonstration. This is admitted by most major groupings of the left (SYNASPISMOS, ANTARSYA, etc). The aim was to force the PAME demonstration to retreat and empty the upper part of the square, so that our valiant thugs could play their games with their fellow police buddies. However, PAME stood on its ground, while the lower part of the square gradually emptied from ordinary strikers due to clashes taking place and the tear gas thrown by your police buddies.
There were no riots taking place that the police had to stop. There was the violet attack of your buddies against peaeful demonstrators that PAME had the means and the courage to fend off. You might have wished for the police to do so, but this time your idiotic games did not go through!

so you can ONLY BLAME THE POLICE FOR HIS DEATH.

NO! We are blaming NOT only the police, but their anarcho-fascist collaborators for our comrade's death. First of all, everything was peaceful until the para-state thugs attacked the PAME demonstrators. Secondly, there is strong suspicion that the tear gas (CS gas) in the upper part of the square was not released by the uniformed police, but by the plain-clothes one posing as "anarchists".

The fact that the popular assembly of the parliament square also condemned PAME's action should make you think a little

Here you are counting again on the lack of knowledge of the people on this board. The so-called "popular assembly" of the square is a farce, a group of 20 people, supposedly representing the thousands that took part in the early summer demos. No one has authorised them to represent them, they represent only their own opinion and nothing else.

All PAME members are also KKE members

Another blatant LIE by our resident "anarchist" who counts on the lack of knowledge of others. PAME is a trade-union front created by communists and other radical trade-unioninst 11 years ago, against the reformist trade-union bureaucracy of GSEE. It groups in it base trade unions, as well as federations. The members of these unions are involved in PAME activities and struggles, but there is techically no designation of a PAME "member". So the idiocy that "all PAME members are also members of the Communist Party" is miles away from reality. We would really wish if the tens of thousands of ordinary workers taking part in the struggles under the banner of PAME were also members of KKE! We aim for them to do so, but we aceept them today with their particular beliefs and differences. That is the strength of PAME!

 

[papageorgiou12]

Here is a very revealing video of Dimitirs' "anarchist" buddies playing "war" with their uniformed co-workers. Notice the laid-back manner in which they throw rocks and, most importantly, the actions of the guy with the stick and the jockey in the middle. First resting by kneeling down, then getting up and waving to his cop buddies to go a different way and signalling the other "anarchists" to stop throwing rocks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysB_A8bahdY&feature=player_embedded